Sunday, August 6, 2017

Game of Thrones: Season 7 Episode 4 - The Spoils of War


Hello friends and welcome back to our Game of Thrones discussion.  Halfway into this episode we hit the halfway mark of this 7th season.  This was advertised ahead of time as the shortest episode in Game of Thrones history and man did they pack a punch in those 50 minutes!  Even before we got the unexpected battle scene at the end I was already going to certify the episode with a WOW seal of approval.  The battle just put it over the top!  There's plenty to discuss so let's get to it!

Discusion Points


Highgarden - The Spoils of War

  • As expected, the riches from Highgarden are being used to pay off the Iron Bank.  We are pretty much told that "time passes" when Lord Tarly tells Jaime all of the gold reached the gates of King's Landing later in the episode.  (This explains how Dany and the Dothraki got there so quickly in "episode time")
  • Bronn complains to Jaime about his payout.  He still wants a castle.  Jaime tells him to wait until the war is over when there is no worry of losing a castle to Dany and her dragons.  Bronn can tell something has shaken Jaime after his talk with Lady Olenna.  All of these little lines of dialogue are hinting at a hopeful eventual change of heart for Jaime in the long run.  The fact that Tyrion will now be in the same place as Jaime is a positive plot movement as well. 
  • There was a whole discussion about motivating the people of the Reach to harvest their wheat for winter throughout the episode as well.  
  • Back at King's Landing, Cersei had a scene with Tycho Nestoris from the Iron Bank.  He was pleased with the full payment of debts, though he thought the Iron Bank would be disappointed that there would be no more interest to pay off.  Cersei mentions she still has a war to win and needs to grow her armies and navies.  She also mentions Qyburn has ties with the Golden Company in Essos and she's looking to recruit them.  I initially thought Daario was with the Golden Company sell swords, but apparently it was Jorah before he pledged his sword to Dany.  I thought this might be an opportunity to pull Daario back into the story.   
  • Cersei mentioned that she wants to "recover things that belong to" her.  I guess she could just be talking about the 7 kingdoms but it felt more specific.  Only other thing I could think of would be her old request for Tyrion's head.  (But I can't remember if that was Book only or book and show) 

Winterfell

  • Let's start with Bran getting the dagger that was used for a murder attempt on him in season 1.  Littlefinger gives it to him and pledges to serve Bran in any way possible.  Bran asked if Littlefinger knows who this belonged to.  He said he didn't, but we know the dagger was his that he lost to Tyrion.  I got the feeling Bran knew who the dagger ORIGINALLY belonged to when he asked.  But Bran got the last laugh when he told Littlefinger that Chaos is a Ladder, just like Littlefinger did a few seasons back.  Bran is certainly getting word out there that he knows everything! 
  • Meera came in to say her goodbyes to Bran.  He was pretty cold to her even though he did thank her.  Poor Meera.  Girl has a had a rough journey and now she's leaving without her brother and barely any gratefulness for what she's done.  She is returning to her family to prepare for the arrival of the army of the dead.  Bran said he remembers what it feels like to be Brandon Stark, but he remembers so much else now.  Meera basically said he died in that cave. If Bran can still remember who he is, maybe there is a way to salvage some emotion one day.  But, at least he's got a new ride to wheel around Winterfell now! 
  • The highlight of the Winterfell moments though was the return of Arya Stark! Loved the whole sequence with the guards that didn't believe who she was. Was "Lady Stark" got word that Arya had returned Sansa knew exactly where she went.  To the crypt to see Ned! 
  • The hugs between Sansa and Arya really brought in the feels.  Sansa acknowledged that the biggest reunion of all would be between Jon and Arya.  If he was excited to see Sansa, yes he would be thrilled to see the girl he gave Needle to.  
  • Loved the double meaning of Arya talking about knowing faces and carving them when talking about Ned's statue.  Arya also told Sansa about her kill list, but Sansa dismissed it as if she was just kidding.  They didn't spend time sharing the awful journeys each of them have been on but they did agree that their stories are not over yet.  
  • Then the Bran, Arya, Sansa reunion!  Of course, more awkwardness with Bran.  Bran talked about how he saw her at the Inn at the Crossroads and thought she'd go to King's Landing to kill Cersei.  Sansa explains that Bran has visions and also starts to wonder about this list of Arya's.  
  • The key moment though is when Bran gives Arya the Valaryan steel dagger.  I'm sure Bran knows that Arya might be destined to have this dagger.  That's my guess at least! 
  • The final scene between Arya an Brienne with Pod, Sansa and Littlefinger watching was amazing.  Arya was trash talking Brienne before they started and then she made some amazing moves and pretty much out-moved Brienne.  Brienne smiled and asked Arya who taught her that move.  She responded "NO ONE".  That was one of the 2 best lines of the night.  (the other one going to the "DICKON" shout out)  
  • As a sidetone it was nice to see Pod giving Brienne credit for "keeping her oath".  Brienne mentioned she didn't do much, but she did contribute to their journeys.
  • I guess we should also note how impressed Littlefinger was at Arya's moves too.  Not sure how he could use that to his advantage.  But, Sansa wasn't too happy about it.  Good to see some things don't change between sisters!  (I'm sure there's more significance to their sibling rivalry from season 1)   
Dragonstone
  • We start off with an update (or no update) from the Unsullied in Casterly Rock.  It doesn't take long before Dany is looking for gossip from Missendi on the "Many Things" bedroom tales of Missendi and Grey Worm.   
  • As per usual, Jon Snow spoils any fun by brooding into the scene.  (Reminds me of the hilarious Seth Myers Dinner Party with Jon Snow) 
  • Jon brings Dany to the Dragonglass cave to show her everything before they start mining it.  The cave is loaded with the dragonglass and more than they'll need to fight the army of the dead.  Dany is amazed at what she sees.  But Jon's got a bigger surprise for her deeper in the cave. 
  • Nothing like etchings in a cave to rally support to your cause!  It appears that the children of the forest once were on Dragonstone fighting alongside men against their common foe.  There were spiral pattern drawings similar to the spiral patters we have seen the White Walkers make with the dead bodies (which were also inspired by the Children of the Forest who created the White Walkers).   There were drawings of Children, Men and White walkers on the walls.  
  • Dany pledged to help Jon fight his battle, but only once he bends the knee.  Jon still refuses out of pride for his people.  Dany tried to argue her case more nicely this time and even referred to Jon as King, but he still wouldn't bend. 
  • A key things that Dany said in this exchange was speaking about how the events in that cave happened before there were Lannisters, Starks and Targaryans.  This goes more towards her "break the wheel" speech she gave Tyrion a couple seasons ago. 
  • Things got a little dicier when they left the cave to receive an update from Tyrion and Varys.  She gets the update we already saw last episode.  But, we do get key news that there are enough ships at Dragonstone to get the Dothraki to the main land.  (For the record, I will say that I kept saying this in the comments last week!)  
  • Dany is hard on Tyrion, rightly so.  His strategy is what got them in this mess.  When she wants to use her dragons she turns to Jon for advice.  Jon gives a great speech about how Dany could bring an era of change for people to believe in.  But if she burns cities and people, it's more of the same dread they've lived through.  I'm going to say that Dany did take this advice into her plan to attack Highgarden since she took the attack to Lannister troops and not civilians or cities.  
  • Later on, Davos bluntly asks Jon what he thinks of her.  (Loved that Jon asked "WHO?")  Jon basically says he doesn't have time for that with what's coming from the North. (See Dinner Party video again)  There certainly is an attraction being flaunted with by the show between these 2.  It still remains a question of how far they'll take it.  (PS: The show runners acknowledged the attraction in the post show video on HBO Go.)
  • Jon and Davos then get a brain dump on the amazing woman that Dany is and how everyone chose her to be their queen.  It was very similar to Davos's speech about how Jon was chosen by his people too.  Loved Davos's question to Jon if he could switch sides.  
  • Missendi also talks about how there is no marriage or concept of bastards from where she comes from.  But it was also an excuse to bring Jon's lineage up again.  The reveal is coming! 
  • Theon returned to Dragonstone as well to ask for Dany's aid in rescuing Yara.  But, he returned only to find Jon Snow there.  Jon wasn't pleased to see Theon, but he said he's not killing him because of what he did for Sansa.  
  • It is only then that we find out that Dany is no longer at Dragonstone. 
The Battle at Highgarden (CORRECTION: Thanks Commenters! - It was at Blackwater Rush river near King's Landing)

  • Jaime has a small discussion with Dickon about the trouble he had fighting against friends in House Tyrell.  We can call back to King Robert's line in season 1, "They don't tell you the shit themselves when they die."  
  • And before you know it we hear the sound of the Dothraki Hoard heading towards Highgarden.   Jaime prepares the troops for battle and we're off!  
  • Bronn tells Jaime to get back to King's Landing.  He knows they're going to get whooped.  And just as Jaime thinks they can handle them, here comes Dany riding Drogon into battle! DRACARYS!!!  
  • The Lannister Army is ablaze and things get messy quickly.  As the show runners also said, this is a tough battle since we have main characters on both sides.  You really don't want anyone to lose.  Actually, I was rooting for the Lannister Army to get torched, but I didn't want Jaime or Bronn to die.  There were many moments when I feared for Jaime, Bronn and Drogon.  But it appears they all will live to face another day! 
  • Key moments:  Bronn used the SCORPION (the dragon weapon) and was able to hit Drogon with his 2nd attack.  Of course, this has now tipped off Tyrion and Dany that they have this weapon and they may revise their attack strategy in the future.  
  • Tyrion was at the battle and watched with horror from afar.  I don't know if he caught sight of Bronn yet, but he certainly saw Jaime charging at Dany while she was dismounted.  Surely, Tyrion caught Bronn jumping to save Jaime last minute.  What was with the drowning shot and silent credits for Jaime?   We know he can't be dead.  He has a valaryan steel sword and a story arc to complete! 
  • But this battle scene was amazing.  Drogon looked great, the fire effects were great, and the scope/scale of Lannisters/Tarlys vs. Dothraki was awesome.  
What will be the outcome of this battle?  Well surely, Dany just got a notch in the W column.  Is Jaime a captive of Dany's?  Will he escape during his underwater scuba adventure?  The best we can hope for is a Tyrion/Bronn/Jaime reunion.  And maybe, just maybe this will be start of Jaime switching allegiances.  So the burning of the Lannister army.  What does this mean for Cersei?  She still has the Iron Fleet.  And now she may have the Golden Company?   In any case, this is a huge blow for Cersei, but it's debatable if this invasion will strike fear into the people of Westeros of Dany.  I do think, as I mentioned before, this was a more strategic attack on Dany's part than trying to take King's Landing.  That had to be due to Jon's guidance.   

In any case, this episode was fantastic and if this is what we're getting mid-season I can't imagine what's in store for the next 3.  Though, I would imagine something will be happening up by The Wall at Eastwatch. 

That's about all I have for this week.  But the recap is only half of the battle.  I look forward to our ongoing discussion in the comments.  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you next week! 

105 comments:

MJ said...

Awesome episode. And all that debate about how Jon and Dany were going to come to an agreement and all it took was was cave drawings! LOL

No way Jamie is dead. Thought Bronn was going to bite the dust a few times though ! Who was it that knocked Jamie into the water ? Didn't quite catch who. I was just dying for Jamie to look up on the hill and see Tyrion.

Sansa/Arya reunion was pretty good. But I kept saying ' and Bran is here too' like 5 times before Sansa finally said it. LOL

Ok - I will read the recap now.

MJ said...

I actually thought Jon Snow was going to bend the knee !

Don't know what Cersei could feel she has to recover that had belonged to her. As for Cersei - was that the entire army the Lannisters have ? Not sure.

Bronn was a good time - as always.

Richard - thought of you when Dany finally tells Tyrion that his plans all sucked. LOL Technically - the hidden way into Casterly Rock

Too bad Dany and the dragons didn't get there before the gold had got to KL - that would have hit Cersie hard to lose all that.

Loved the Sansa/Briennce fencing - though could not quite get a read on Sansa while she watched - she didn't look happy though. Yeah - thought the same when Pod told her she'd kept her oath that she didn't get them all back but she did what she could and she did it with honor.

I laughed over 'Dichon' all night. and I wanted those details that Dany was trying to get from Missendi.

I don't know why you all say Jon broods so much. He's a serious guy worried about serious things - I guess I don't see that as brooding. The guy has not had a great life - from being a bastard with Catelyn always treating him badly - to all he's been forced to go through.Give him a break! LOL Not his fault he writers don't give him funny lines.

Ships - yeah - you did say that - but I don't see how. Guess it's the magic of tv that we see two scenes with tons of ships ruined - but she still has a bunch more. LOL I'm fine with it.

Theon - I am assuming that Jon still does not know that Theon did not kill Bran and Rickon ? I know Jon should hate him for turning on Winterfel - but i seemed way more personal.

Jamie - yeah said earlier he is def not dead - but the silent credits are a neat trick and were creepy. Maybe Bronn (since you say he pushed Jamie to save him) was the one who died.


Oh - and thank god they did not try to pretend that the little crossbow that Qyborn had was going to do any thing ! But even though the large one can hurt a dragon - as we predicted it took way too long to reload.

Battle - very cool effect with the soldiers turning to ash !

Mike V. said...

@MJ

Pretty sure it was Bronn that knocked Jaime into the water. He was probably the closest. Some are saying Dickon due to the earlier save, but I doubt it. I wanted Jaime to see Tyrion too but all in due time!

All Starks deserve their own reunion! Plus, Sansa was probably hesitant to tell Arya about Brann and his new powers. Some funny jokes on Reddit about the Starks reuniting and how Sansa is the only one that doesn’t have super powers. Not sure if she knows jon rose from the dead though.

True on the gold getting to KL.

As for Tyrion…there might be something to Tyrion trying to reduce casualties with his strategic planning. Clearly, he doesn’t want his brother to die. I doubt he cares TOO much about Cersei.

Yeah…I wasn’t sure what was up with Sansa…but maybe it does have something to do with how much her family has changed. I dunno. All I know is Littlefinger is very interested in Arya (and probably Bran too…although he might be a little worried about Bran). It was also interesting that they said “someone with a lot of money wanted me dead”. I don’t think they ever paid off who attempted to kill Bran in the show. In the books Tyrion thought he figured it out. I won’t spoil in case it’s the same person.

RIGHT??? With Missendi…she seemed to imply more happened than what we saw! Lol

I wouldn’t have brought up brooding if Tyrion didn’t last week. It’s just a running joke with his character. Jon has the weight of the world on his shoulders. He totally is what he needs to be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t joke about it! Lol Did you watch the video I linked to (or have you seen it before?)? It’s hilarious. Jon is one of my favorite characters, but it doesn’t mean he gets away from a joke at his expense!

Ships - you have to give the TV show a break some times. Sure they have a massive budget now, but they can only do so much world building. We don’t know the technical layout of Dragonstone and where they could dock some ships (maybe at the back of the island?? Lol). You also have to remember how many ships we saw leave Meereen at the end of last season….there was enough to transport the Dothraki, the Unsullied and the Tyrell/Greyjoys/Martells….. excluding the soldiers in Dorne that are probably still just hanging out down there with no transportation. Lol

Theon – Jon knows that Brann is alive. Sam told him back in season 4 I believe. (in the books Sam did not tell him) And Jon knows Rickon was still alive at the end of last season when Rickon was running straight to him in the battle of the bastards. Lol Theon betrayed House Stark. He betrayed Robb, he killed Ser Rodrick and essentially Maester Llewyn (not directly). He’s done enough for Jon to hate him.

Yes…I think the fact that Cersei will have these Scorpion weapons in king’s landing will factor into Dany’s future strategies. Drogon was definitely hurt. If you hit them in the right place, it could be fatal.

Agreed on the ash!

Mike V. said...

Forgot to make 2 additional comments. (I'm sure there are more)

1.) The tracking shot of Bronn during the battle was awesome. Thrones is really perfecting that art. They did it with Jon during BotB.

2.) Arya's fighting stance during the sparring sessions with Brienne was very reminisicent (i.e. direct parallel) to her sparring with Syrio Forel in season 1. She was doing the ol' Water Dance and she was now the master. The whole one hand behind the back. Very Syrio inspired.

There's some interview links on ew. I'll share those as well.

Anonymous said...

I came away from this ep thinking I should have experienced a wow factor. It was good though. I commented last week that I thought her Rocky moment was now, she was at her low point.

Also, this works great for my predictions on the battles for Dany and Jon.

Yea, it's about time Tyrion got some negative feedback on his performances.

When it started with the Lannisters I was thinking when I saw the field that these guys are dragon bait and the gold is gone. One happened and the other didn't. I'm really surprised Cersei got her gold.

A lot of the Lannister forces are at KL. They were crossing the Blackwater Rush river near KL. It will depend on narrative need how much of the army is left. Just like Dany's ships. I'm OK with her having more ships. But, I'm not ok with the show making a big deal of her huge losses only for those very same losses not to be that much. It's really selling a lie and I don't like liars.

The hypocrisy by Dany was on display this ep.
1. I care about the people, so let me burn every wagon carrying food the Lannisters were bringing to KL. Food will become an issue and she just burned a lot of what was to be had. What an idiot. I think food will become an issue more next season.
2. Melissandei about how she got her followers because they love her. REally, ask the Dothraki leaders she burned alive. The rest followed her because they were afraid being burned alive.
3. She cares for the people, even in the North. But, nothing is more important than having Jon bend the knee. He doesn't care about titles but she's obsessed by it. While saying she cares and those around her saying she's so caring. REally, this is where the shows' narrative is hokey. You can't simultaneously want to fight for the highest office in the land while saying you don't want to fight. That the people follow you because they love you. Seriously, the show thinks we are that stupid. A lot of the people follow her because of her dragons. Just look at the Yara navy as an example. They went to Essos and aligned themselves because they thought Dany could win a war with her dragons and so by association Yara could conquer her people back. Then the show tried to have it about an instant "attraction(with sexual overtones)" between Dany and Yara. There's been so much of this stuff that I'm beginning to really get a bad taste that shouldn't be there and wouldn't be there if the writers had been doing a better job.

Part 1,
Richard

Anonymous said...

Part 2
JON WILL BEND THE KNEE this season, probably ep 5 or 6. He doesn't care, but he knows his people will not follow a Southerner after all the wars/suffering. Of course the fact that Jon knows more about battling the WW in the North than most others and him being King of the North should have ZERO input on him being the one who should be the one true KIng. Why not have a Queen who has absolutely no knowledge about the threat be the leader. But, Jon will fail in his first battle with the WW. He's already said he can't win without her. So, I can easily see him going into battle and her coming in to save him at some point. BTW, have you noticed nobody has asked and he hasn't said if he can win with her? AND MJ, Jon's laisie faire attitude about ruling is in keeping with what I see with his weepy eyes, lol. He's just a downer. And why is it taking him so many eps just to get STARTED on mining the dragon glass. A lot of time has gone by and he has done next to nothing. Didn't he get the OK to mine the dragon glass the end of EP 2, first of 3?

The Dragonstone children of the forest markings give you some idea how far the WW came last time. Which means we could be in for a lot of action next season vs the WW. Also note they were on an island. So, the WW not crossing water may be at play here.

Speaking of the WW. I feel jerked around by the show with the huge distances traveled by everybody except the WW. They could have covered the needed ground 4 times over by now.

Sam's education will likely come to pay off with these dragonstone cave markings. I suspect he will learn how to read the children of the forest markings.

Bronn knocked Jaime off his horse and they both fell into the river from what I saw. Both will live. The question is where do they go when they find a shore. And that ties into what's next for Dany and her dragons. Especially vs KL/Cersei. With food becoming an issue the old tried and true method of barricading is obvious. Then you negotiate and don't have ashes.

BTW, what happened with the Greyjoy navy? Shouldn't they have kept the dothraki's from landing? Maybe they will show up next ep and we'll have an Euron exit.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Sophie (sansa) and Maisie (arya) best friends off screen - on screen reunion - http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/06/game-of-thrones-sansa-arya-reunion-interview/

Jaime Cliffhanger:
http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/06/game-of-thrones-jaime-lannister-dragon/

Hibberd Recap:
http://ew.com/recap/game-of-thrones-spoils-war/

Mike V. said...

Forgot one additional predication: Richard won’t be impressed! LOL
LIARS – she lost a lot. She had a dominant force. She had Westerosi Allies…and she’s essentially lost them. They helped her get her army to Westeros. I don’t see that being a lie.
The gold getting away – I really think they wanted to tie up that Iron Bank loose end. (YOU wanted them to tie that up) Granted, they opened up another story with them. Lol

1.) I thought of Dany burning the food…yeah that’s going to be a problem.
2.) I like how you merged Melissandre and Missendi lol. True on the Dothraki….I’m sure that had something to do with it….but she also gave them an inspiring speech whilst on Drogon’s back and they seemed all for it.

3.) I get what you’re saying and maybe I agree to some extent, but it’s not bothering me that much. The basic principle is that Jon and Dany have been on 2 different tracks for the entire series…for them to just give up on their plans to compromise (which they are starting to do) is not believable. Now, how they execute that will probably be handled better in GRRM’s writings…but here they are expediting things. I think it’s clear we take 2 different approaches when we watch this (any) TV show. Lol

I have a feeling Jon may bend the knee too. But when he does it will be in some dramatic fashion that makes us think it was an inspired choice and they are treating each other as equals. The other option is they propose a marriage alliance between the 2 of them and they’ll rule north and south together. I don’t know when Jon and Dany will be back together again though considering she’s still going to be in Highgarden next episode. I say this but we know how quickly they travel these days. Lol

The mining the dragon glass…that was the end of last week that he got permission…and him showing Dany was the beginning of this week. By the time Dany gets to highgarden…the gold has reached king’s landing…so time has passed by the end of the episode which means the mining has begun and is in process by the end of the ep.

I made my comments on Brooding Jon above (we posted at the same time Richard)

Good point on the WW getting so far down south last time. I thought of that with the children being there…but the children were EVERYWHERE before the andals came right? But yes…the walkers must’ve made it that far south.

Lol on the traveling and the WW…..the white walkers still have a big obstacle in their way and the show goes out of their way to tell us. I get it with the traveling…but it’s not like their army of the dead are all mounted on horses or are using boats. They’re literally doing a slow march and picking up dead on their way. I get what you mean….it’s a lot slower than everything going on south….but…it’s kinda that way in the books too. The walkers are a looming threat, but not the main focus. Of course, the Night King may have not been ready to march South towards the wall yet. They took a detour to Hardhome afterall. And picked up some dead while they were there. But yes…once they get past the wall…they’re just going to be everywhere in no time at all. Lol

Not sure if anyone watched the previews for next week but it looks like we see Dany’s next move. ( I know MJ didn’t lol) As far as King’s landing? I don’t know. They did make it pretty clear that they hadn’t harvested ALL of the wheat yet right? That was the whole discussion where Randall Tarly was talking about beating people to make them work faster. (Or maybe he said it slows them down lol. Swell guy!)

Euron’s fleet was at Casterly Rock keeping the unsullied land locked. Not sure they left or planned on leaving yet. I think most people are expecting Theon to take out Euron while saving Yara….of course it might be the end of Theon in the process too.

MJ said...

This really was all a reunion episode - with an awesome battle added in. And it was all about the Starks and Theon their former squire. But of course Tyrion sees Jamie - and perhaps Bran.

The joke around the office today is - how did Dany not look at Jon in that came and be like - you know you just drew that s**t ! Cause it looked pretty new/well kept considering how old it is supposed to be.


I did not catch that Brans comment to Littlefinger was something Littlefinger once said in KL.

But I did catch this : “Isn’t their survival more important than your pride?” It’s a word-for-word quote of what Jon once said to Mance Rayder who similarly refused to bend the knee to the “Southern king” Stannis.


Jon - true enough with all you said. And duh ! Yeah he saw ricon die ! Jeez.


Richard - sorry but I did have a wow experience with this one. Cersei had to get the gold - so she can get more soldiers. The war can't be over this quick ! But true - the gold and alot of soldiers had crossed that Blackwater - what was left were some stragglers I believe that random Lieutenant or whoever he was stated to jamie. And yeah - lots of people saying that Dany should not have targeted the wagons with stores. Of course - aren't we all assuming it was food ? i don't know what was in the wagons really.

Mike V. said...

Indeed on the Reunion Episode.

Yeah there was a funny joke on Reddit about Davos telling Jon he minored in art and he just needs some chalk. Lol (although it does look like chalk, at closer look they were etched into the cave!) There’s another joke about how Jon takes all of his ladies to CAVES. Lol

Interesting on the Mance comparison….did not catch that. So Jon = Mance now. Makes sense. They’re fighting for the same cause.

Jon – yeah I figured you had a momentary lapse with forgetting Rickon was at the BotB (don’t feel like spelling it out anymore, though saying this is actuall more words than that! Lol)

I was assuming the wagons did have food as well…but I guess you could be right. But yeah….obviously I had the wow factor too. It was a pretty impressive mid-season battle….this is the stuff the shorter season is paying for. It probably took a long time to film that battle. Though I still haven’t summed up the minute count to see if it will be even. I heard it will be as long as a 10 ep season minutes-wise. I think the next 3 are over an hour with the finale being 1.5. Gotta look that up.

Anonymous said...

The battle took place near Blackwater Rush river, near KL. Check out the map. Recall that a lot of the Lannister forces were already inside the KL gates.

The Lannisters had come most of the way from Highgarden.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg

I get the WW stuff being narratively a bother at this point. But, it needs to be pointed out since there's so little land up there vs what has been covered down South. AND a lot of the force movement in the South was on foot too.

Theon is such a geek,trader, weakling, icky guy that I just can't root for him.

It occured to me watching Arya fight with the valerian dagger that she's not likely to make it. I could easily see her character fighting valiantly only to die.

No response re Sam? I thought you'd be all over that one.

Given the map I could see Dany trying to meet up with Greyworm. Check out the Gold Road. BTW, does she use ravens? I haven't seen her long range communications systems, lol,

I found the Meera/Bran conversation revealing. IE, that Bran is dead. But, he's trying to have it both ways. He wants the benefits of being a Stark, like food--lol. But, isn't into the relationship stuff. I felt sorry for Meera. Sansa should have given her some kind of assistance/reward, something for saving her brother. But, yet then again, did she??


Richard

Mike V. said...

Okay I found it. Here’s a reminder of the episode run times:

Episode 1: 59 minutes.
Episode 2: 59 minutes.
Episode 3: 63 minutes.
Episode 4: 50 minutes.
Episode 5: 59 minutes.
Episode 6: 71 minutes.
Episode 7: 81 minutes.

This totals 442 minutes and averages 63 minutes per episode. It's a total of 7.3 hours. I think this means it's probably still shorter than previous seasons but I'm going to do some research to see how close it is.

Mike V. said...

Wait…they weren’t near Highgarden anymore? I guess that makes sense since Cersei said Jaime was personally overseeing the delivery of the gold. But, I could’ve sworn I still saw Highgarden in the background in those end shots. Did I not?

Little land above the wall….yeah….but you know the White Walkers have been traveling back and forth to their home base through the series too. We saw them at the FIST in season 2/3. But we also saw a white walker take one of Craster’s babies to the Night King in the land of always winter in a later season. Then we saw them at Hard Home…I don’t think they’re pulling a Rickon and doing a straight line to anything. Lol

I’m not saying anyone should root for Theon…I just think that’s what probably is going to happen.

Some might think Arya’s final kill might be the Night King himself now. But yeah…it wouldn’t surprise me if she doesn’t make it. That would upset me though since she is one of my faves as well.

Totally missed what you wrote about Sam. Yeah…that makes sense that maybe Sam will translate the markings. I never really expected them to mean anything. I just thought it was a means to reflect historical symbolism. D&D brought it up on the post-show comments on HBO Go as well. Spiral symbols are important in their culture just like some of Earth’s human cultures….and we saw that the White Walkers used the same symbolism since they were originated by the Children. If it actually means something?? That would be surprising to me…but if anyone would translate it it would most certainly be Sam.

I looked at the map. I don’t see blackwater rush. But the Gold Road might be a meeting place. Dany has used ravens….Jon got one when she summoned him. He didn’t just randomly go down there! Lol

I think they were essentially wrapping up the Meera loose end (unless they were expanding it by getting her to return to Howland Reed and bringing him into the story). I don’t think we’re going to get deeper story nuggets to find out how much of a reward was offered. It was a thankless role and character. I felt bad for her too! Lol At least they acknowledged it with her goodbye scene.

Mike V. said...

Another funny quote (and now a meme) was when Davos corrected Jon's grammer. Everyone was saying Stannis would be proud. lol

Jon: Less?
Davos: Fewer.

Anonymous said...

The Blackwater Rush river runs somewhat parallel to the Gold Rd coming into KL. From the West.

One thing I was reminded of by WiC recap this morning that is important.
Wildlings. Jon represents the Wildlings too. They bend a knee to NOBODY. They are free and proud of being free. REcall Ygritte and Mance, etc. They would revolt against Jon if Jon were to bend a knee. And they are a significant part of his army. BTW, 10,000 seems a big number compared to some other armies. The Unsullied were 8,000 and they were less when they crossed the sea.

Who kills the Night King. That's a a great question that deserves a lot of speculation for next year. BUT, are we sure he dies, lol? What happens if the wheel being broken means the NK wins?

Richard

MJ said...

previews - you are correct ! LOL

My DVR said the ep was 1 hour last night - but I heard people grumbling today that it was 50 min. I didn't watch the clock so I have no idea.

Mike V. said...

@Richard

Okay, still gotta read the EW recap (or someone else’s recap) to see if it was indeed not at Highgarden. I heard Randall talking about Blackwater Rush and the bridge but for some reason I thought they were still at Highgarden…logistically that doesn’t make sense though. But why would they be on the Gold Road coming into KL when the Roseroad goes directly from highgarden to KL?

Yeah…that sounds similar to what MJ brought up about Jon and Mance’s similarities with knee bending to a southern ruler. The 10,000 actually is a pretty big number….I thought the unsullied were 10,000 too when Dany got them…She certainly did lose a few since Astaphor though….But she’s also got the dothraki and 3 dragons.

It’s a good point….with all the twists and turns…we have discussed what if the Night King doesn’t die? But come on…we’re talking about an army of essentially ice zombies. Lol There may be more to the story…(i.e. we already saw they were created by the children of the forest…there may be more to that story), but I think in the end they need to fall. It’s what happens to the humans we’ve been following that will be the intesting and bittersweet part. Not everyone will live to live in the new world. Possibly not even Dany or Jon. But if their actions inspired others that may be all that matters.

@MJ

DVR – the DVR will always at least say an Hour! Lol But there were 2 minutes of previews before the show started and then it ended around 9:52ish.

I still haven’t done any episode calculations from prior seasons but I can’t easily find the run times either. lol

Mike V. said...

Okay, my bad. They were on their way to KL. I totally missed that. But they still had a little ways to go and Tarly had come back to report that all the gold was in, right? So some soldiers are in KL, like you said but the wants in the back were fried.


BTW...another interview about Arya/Brienne:
http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/07/game-of-thrones-maisie-williams-gwendoline-christie-sparring/

Mike V. said...

I'm studying this map. I just see no logical reason for them to be at Blackwater Rush. lol The Roseroad goes directly from Highgarden to KL. Just gotta go with it I guess.

Anonymous said...

Have you clicked to enlarge the map? It's really quite detailed. I didn't say they were on the Gold Rd. I said the Unsullied could be on the Gold Rd. I also said the river runs somewhat parallel to the Gold Rd going into KL. The Lannisters were on the Roseroad. Which crosses Blackwater Rush near KL and Blackwater Bay.

BTW I confirmed the 8000 unsullied at AStanpor

Richard

Mike V. said...

I did look at the detailed map. I just didn't follow the river all the way to KL. I see what they were saying in the show and what you're saying now. The blackwater rush river crosses the Roseroad just directly south of King's Landing. So they were right outside. Randyll was talking about crossing the blackwater rush bridge. And that was the blackwater rush river that Jaime/bronn fell into. Thanks for the clarification.

I need to watch that battle again...did we see King's Landing in the background and maybe I thought THAT was highgarden?

Cool on 8000.

Anonymous said...

Next weeks ep title makes me happy. More about the North obviously.

I've been reading about a lot of sexual tension betweem Jon and Dany in this ep. Did you guys see any or even a little? I saw some niceness. And Davos asking about Jon's eyes being on Dany's chest. I haven't noticed that which makes me feel like there's some manufacturing going on here.

Richard

Anonymous said...

I didn't pay a lot of attention. But it seems like it was in the distance a bit and like a side of KL I hadn't seen before.

I think the dothraki are going to be obvious to those in KL now. I suspect Dany's going to want submission by all. Given next weeks title KL could be easily solved(which I don't expect) or protracted and difficult. And Euron could show in in Blackwater Bay.

Did we see anybody other than Joffrey so obsessed with people bending the knee to them?

I should have said the special effects were great for the battle. And the Lannisters didn't have multiple dragon slaying machines, nor anyone manning them at the ready. 2 mistakes there.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Indeed on next week's ep title. Didn't realize that would be happening so soon. Of course, it is a fast paced season and there's a lot to do.

I definitely noticed a little tension, but it's not in the dialogue and more in the actions. D&D mentioned in the post show interview that there definitely is an attraction, but not so much in the dialogue that was written but more on them being in an intimate space and their chemistry. The one thing you can point to is Jon taking Dany's arm to move the torch. Subtle things. And of course Davos bringing it up later saying he observed Jon looking at her "good heart" and Jon saying 'there's no time for that'. I really don't know how much the show/books plan on pursuing it due to their relation but there are subtle hints at it.

RE: KL in the distance. I'm going to check it again later tonight. I'm very curious. lol

Next week could be one of the longer episodes so there's no telling how much they'll cover in each location. From previews....*****MILD SPOILER - it looks like Jon was making Eastwatch plans from the map room at Dragonstone *****END SPOILER

Cersei is pretty obsessed with knee bending too. I just observe Dany differently than Joffrey or Cersei though. And we're meant to. Dany came to Westeros looking to unite the 7 Kingdoms...she's unwilling to compromise, but she is going a little soft on Jon. She even pledged her suppot to Jon....just had to add the damn caveat. But then things changed...she got the update that her armies are getting defeated and she practically begged for Jon's advice. So things are shifting a bit. They're forming a bond. Whether that's a friendship/strategic alliance or something more than that...that remains to be seen....

Well...they didn't have multiple scorpions (that's the official dragon slaying machine name) with them...but I'm betting they have more at King's Landing. But yes...it was a mistake not having someone at the ready. I forget what Jaime said to Bronn when talking about the scorpion but it might have been that their "gunner" was smoked already. And then he mentioned he can't operate the machine with 1 hand.

Unknown said...

I think Jorah knocked Jaime off his horse because he was trying to save Dany. He could have been passing through Highgarden on his way north from Oldtown and picked up the trail of the Dothraki or seen the dragon in the sky.
Would make another a great reunion.

Anonymous said...

LOL, if your show runners have to make the point that a relationship is developing then the acting just might be in trouble. Of course that implies someone had to ask the question too. At least that's my take. As you know, the guy playing JOn is next to worthless to me. I saw the arm grab. But, I do that for strangers going through a difficult hiking trail. And when's the last time you've seen Jon staring at Dany's "heart"? I haven't at all. I don't blame the actor for this but his uniform is feminine--narrow shoulders with a skirt like cover. It's hard to take this guy seriously, lol. He looked silly on the beach when seen from above by Dany.

The only thing that will prevent a Dany/Jon sexual encounter is war.

I'm thinking Jon will go to Eastwatch soon, get beaten and then Dany will come to his rescue. Note that I did not say he would be going to Winterfell to find out he is a Targaryan. I'm thinking next season for that reveal. AFter their relationship is more mature. Then it becomes more drama worthy.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Hi Unknown! Thanks for commenting! Huh...I didn't even think of Jorah. I like the idea that Jorah might run into Dany in that area rather than him traveling all the way to Dragonstone on his own. That actually would be a good reason that they wouldn't have shown who it was that dove and knocked Jaime off his horse. Of course that's a lot of coincidence to happen at one time. Drogon just happens to be ready to light Jaime up just as Jorah was diving towards Jaime to stop him from killing Dany.

Which makes me think...how on earth did someone just LEAP into action and knock Jaime off his horse? That is quite a jump! lol I'm gonna have to freeze frame that scene.

Thanks again for commenting. Appreciate the additional viewpoints!

Anonymous said...

@Unknown--even if Jorah wasn't the one that would be a great reunion for sure. And Jorah would be on the Roseroad.

Richard

Mike V. said...

@Richard

I get that you don't like Kit Harrington. I really think he's grown into the role. I didn't think Davos meant that Jon was literally looking at dany's chest. I think he was being metaphoric in that Jon digs Dany. I also get what you're saying. All of these interviews with Kit and Emilia and now the showrunners are talking about how they're attracted to each other. Do we see that on screen? Maybe? I think the problem is that Jon and Dany on their own are very boring characters on their own. It's the plight of any hero. They are the SAVIORS with lofty goals. It's all in the character design. They need their hype men/women to make the scenes great. Hence Davos, Tyrion always breaking the tension with jokes. I'm sure this will get misinterpreted and people will think I hate Jon and Dany. That's not the point I'm trying to make. I like both of the characters.

You can say the same thing with Star Wars. Every hero story worth its salt needs a Han Solo to mix things up. Luke and Leia's story is only so entertaining on its own. You need that guy questioning things and not believing in the force and being basically an a-hole (an a-hole with a heart of gold!). So when you pair up 2 of these people on a hero's journey of course it's going to be a struggle for them to just enter into Romantic-Comedy land with everything else on their minds. But, if that truly is the direction they're going with both of them...then there are subtle hints towards it. Until the rug gets pulled from underneath them and then "HELLO AUNT DANY!!!"

Mike V. said...

Agreed @Richard and Unknown...regardless of the save I'm pretty convinced that Jorah will meet up with Dany there. Makes too much sense for it not to work out that way.

Mike V. said...

Random thought: I was looking at the episode ranks from season 1 through 7 on IMDB (latest isn't on there yet but right now it's at 9.9 on imdb) And I was looking at episode titles.

S1E1: Winter is Coming
S5E9: The Dance of Dragons
S6E10: The Winds of Winter

Anyone want to take bets that S8E6 will be called A Dream of Spring? (right now it's a "dream" that we'll ever see a book with that title ever published! lol)

Here's the site I'm referring to. It's actually been linked at the bottom of my blog site for years now. I love checking out all the shows we watch to see which way a show trended/is trending, best episodes/worst episodes etc... IMDB rankings are usually pretty much on point with the consensus...

http://graphtv.kevinformatics.com/tt0944947

(direct link to GoT, but you can search any show at bottom)

Mike V. said...

Interview with Showrunners/Director on the battle.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/07/game-of-thrones-dragon-battle-interview/

Anonymous said...

A Dream of Spring makes a LOT of sense. For example, it will likely end after winter and with a new beginning.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Watching the final scene again. Yeah I totally misread and wrote about the setup for the scene. No view of king's landing but it's clear we are viewing the tail of the procession which randyll suggests they start flogging people to get a move on.

Can't believe this is my 3rd time watching and I totally misunderstood. Lol it happens I guess.

Bing said...

Mike, Good point that if it was Bronn why wouldn't they have shown him more clearly. As far as the coincidence of Jorah getting there at that perfect moment, Jorah has rescued Dany dramatically before with the spear he threw over her shoulder in the fighting pits. It just seems like Jorah risking his life to save Dany makes more sense than Bronn risking his to save Jaime at this point.
It's also a classic Jorah move, done entirely out of love for Dany, but she will only recognise the tactical advantage he accomplished of having Jaime as a prisoner rather than a pile of ash.

Anonymous said...

If it was Jorah. He could have been launching his take down of Jaime BEFORE dracaryas turned around to fire up Jaime. Meaning it was to save Dany.

Bronn was a good distance away with the scorpion but with the way things are today with time travel I have no idea if that was a problem. BTW, Jorah would have had a LOT further to go than the Lannisters since he would have had to go through Highgarden area to get to KL.

I still want to see a dragon killed. It seems the show wants to have it both ways, ie that the dragons are "all conquering" but that the opposing side has a chance. Imagine the attack if all 3 dragons had been used. In some ways it may be a set up for just how dire things will be next year though.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yeah...I'm getting more and more on board with the Jorah idea. It's a good observation. We'll see how it plays out!

I do think a dragon will eventually be killed...but don't we think we need 3 dragon riders before that happens? Maybe it'll be different in the books vs. show but everyone has been theorizing with the books on who will be riding the dragons. One name in particular that I won't bring up because it raises a whole bunch of other speculation that is more prevalent in the books.

Maybe they won't even go the 3 rider route in the show. Though Arya did refer to her favorite dragon rider and dragon when talking to Tywin in season 2.

Anonymous said...

I meant drogon.

BTW, if Jon gets up close to a dragon do you think him being a Targaryan will make the dragon/Jon meeting special?

On my wanting a dead dragon. That's probably a bad idea given the Night King may get a dragon of his own afterwards.

We've speculated about Jon, Tyrion(maybe a Targaryan--but the dragons aren't responding to him) and of course Dany riding the 3 dragons in battle. How about the Night King on a dead dragon vs Dany and Jon on dragons?

Re A Dream of Spring. Spring time would likely mean that the Night King has lost. You know, there is a way of taking that title that's different though. What about people "dreaming" for spring wishing it would come? Probably far fetched but trying to keep things opened up.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Apparently the Dragon that did a flyby on Jon when he first got there was Rhaegel (SP) named after his father, Rhaegar. So maybe there already is a bond.

You think there will be a dragon on the other side as well? an ICE dragon? I've heard jokes about it, but maybe they were based on actual theories. Isn't there a theory that there's a dragon trapped in THE WALL too?

ahhh....dead dragon (you see I respond to your messages as I read lol)....I could see that...NK kills a dragon then raises it...that would be interesting.

I was trying not to bring up what you just brought up, but how can you say the dragons didn't respond to Tyrion? They didn't burn him to a crisp when he talked to them about always wanting a dragon as a child and releasing them from their chains.

Well it's a "DREAM" of spring....that doesn't mean spring has actually arrived. lol But you would think if they've defeated the NK and his army....then winter will have ended. (ONCE Again...I wrote my comment as I was reading yours so I just saw you basically said the same thing) Yes...I would think in George's book 7 it would still be winter for the majority of it.

Mike V. said...

Notice I said "WOULD BE" instead of "WILL BE". I'm turning into a true GRRM Book fan. lol

MJ said...

Well - to be fair - they were on a rest break traveling back to KL. Why would the Scorpion be manned ? And with so many of the troops already gone ahead and the immediacy of the attack I guess no one thought to jump up there right away. Curious though why Jamie and Bronn would be in the back with the stragglers. He should have been at the lead. But I'm going with it.

I think there is some attraction perhaps. But mostly cautious admiration. Which in tv people always think is sexual attraction. You guys know my old soap box - in life men and women work together and admire eachother without any sexual tension. That seems impossible on tv. Seems to me they are more sizing eachother up - still building a trust.

Some are hypothisizing that the arrow that hit Drogon could have been poison tipped

Mike V. said...

Interesting hypothesis on the arrow. If Qyburn was taking other lessons from the Martells, there is a chance he may have done the same with the weopons.

I do know your soapbox well and it is a very good point. lol But the fact that the showrunners and Davos are talking about their attraction means that it is being considered. Granted...Jon also said there's no time for that. But we also know that there is a plot point introduced that Dany needs to marry someone in Westeros to forge an alliance. The selection of potential candidates from our list of leading actors is pretty slim. lol

Who knows? Maybe one look at the Kingslayer who killed her father whilst he charged towards killing her was the only look she needed to know true love does exist! lol

Anonymous said...

The arrow being poisoned is a great idea given Qyborn was behind it. And if it wasn't, those in the future might be.

One thing that keeps occuring to me is how Dany got those eggs. What she and the audience thought was a horrible thing her brother did to her turned out to be the very thing that has made her so successful.

BTW, does anyone think Jon can walk through fire like Dany?


I wondered about that too, why would the leaders be with the trailing group, esp when you think they would be with the gold. It didn't make sense but given my other criticisms, I laid low on it. I get they were on a rest break. But, your best weapon should have enough crews for change out. Plus it shouldn't require unpacking. I get removing a steady block but to have to unpack it doesn't make sense.

Here's one I hadn't mentioned before under the category of too much criticism. They were at the KL gates. Why doesn't KL have more scorpions at the various gates? Seems a weak point militarily.

LOL, well Jon and Dany are doing a great job to me of showing zero sexual tension. I like the term, "cautious admiration". I might say, "feeling each other out" or maybe even 'testing' each other.

It's a great point that the dragons didn't burn Tyrion. And it even made us wonder about him being a Targaryan. BUT, nothing, zero, nada has come of it. And so, I've kind of chalked that Tyrion/dragon stuff up to a GoT misdirection or even a change of narrative. He's been around them for what, about 3 seasons now.

Love the book fan reference. And the more this unfolds with D&D flying "solo", the more I appreciate GRRM.

Richard

Anonymous said...

LOL, Yea, that's it--Jamie/Dany, lol. For some reason I don't think so. The Jon/Dany consummation is practically a fait accompli. And at this point I think it needs to happen sometime in the future when it makes sense. I do wonder what Jamie's going to do though. He's got a valarian sword, but only his left hand.

I still think Cersei makes it until the final season btw. Which means a total take over of KL is still a ways away. AND I still see Jamie killing her for the greater good. For instance/what if. Jon goes to fight the WW and fails or practically fails then Dany joins to help. But, even together they loose ground. Word gets down to KL just how real and bad this threat is but Cersei does nothing as the people starve. Just a thought.

MJ, my wife laughs and says how unrealistic it is for a man and woman to meet in a movie and later that evening be totally, madly in LOVE. I agree too. The thing is too, the more I see of Hollywood, the more I realize they believe their own BS and that's why they have so many single mothers and divorce. Just a thought anyway.

Richard

Anonymous said...


Here's a link explaining who saved Jamie.
Richard

https://winteriscoming.net/2017/08/07/tackled-jaime-water-end-spoils-war/

Here's an excerpt from an interview with Nik about Jamie:
A misdirection? Curious minds want to know.


Jaime’s situation looks dire at the end of the episode, and the script direction isn’t very comforting. The actors were told, “One of our main characters is about to die.” Coster Waldau remains tight-lipped about Jaime’s future, so we’ll have to wait until next week to find out if he survives.

Anonymous said...

I know, I need to get back to work, but stuff keeps popping up in the noodle.

Is it likely that Daario could end up working for Cersei as a mercenary? Thinking about her hiring the Golden Co. This would help drag out the Cersei plotline until next season.


Richard

Mike V. said...

I don’t know if Jon will have the same power as Dany. She doesn’t even have that power in the books. It was all circumstantial to the dragon birth which made her immune to the fire. So I don’t know how much they’ll build that into Jon’s story. But interesting thought!

They made clear comments about people in the tail trailing behind (hence the flogging comments from Tarley) As for why Jaime was back there? I have no idea. He did have a sort of sympathy for the Tarly forces who had to face their friends at Highgarden so that may have been part of it.

Yes…cautious admiration and feeling each other out are good ways to sum up. Lol
Funny how you’re bringing up stuff like “it’s been 3 seasons they’re not going to get to it” in a season that keeps pulling stuff back up from seasons ago. (The Dagger and who ordered the hit, the Iron Bank, CHAOS IS A LADDER, All dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes, etc…) I wouldn’t say it’s not going to come up at all. If anything, there’s a reason they planted that scene in when they did. Actually, I think that was last season when Tyrion unchained the dragons (i.e. when Dany was gone) He only met Dany in the middle of season 5.

I was kidding about the Jaime/Dany thing – But of course…it is worth noting that Jaime did kill her father and now was going after her in that final sequence. I had read it and knew it but didn’t quite process it as it was happening. If Jaime is captured, I’m sure there will be words between her, Tyrion and Jaime.

Yeah…I think Littlefinger’s speech to Sansa about “fight all your battles at once” was a key scene in basically letting us know that the battle against the Dead and against Cersei may happen simultaneously.

Ahh that’s why people love a ROM COM! Lol It’s pure fantasy! I should note that in Star Wars it took 3 movies for Han and Leia to work things out. (And of course now with episode 7 we know even that didn’t last! Lol) Mark Hamill always brings up a funny quote in interviews. “There’s only 1 woman in the galaxy and she is beautiful. And even better…she’s your sister!!!” lol I paraphrased but…still hilarious!

Mike V. said...

I actually brought up the Daario connection in the recap. But upon further investigation he wasn't with the Golden Company....Jorah was. I think Daario was with the Second Sons right? Plus, didn't he abandon all that when he pledged to Dany? But yeah I thought that was a way to bring him into things.

I hear you on getting back to work. I always keep trying to come here between meetings and chime in. :)

Anonymous said...

Yes, Daario was with Second Sons. But he was very unhappy about how he was left. So, I'm just wondering if he went back to his old ways and just maybe went to a different group of mercenaries.

Richard

Mike V. said...

I would say "VERY" unhappy is a stretch. He was left in charge of keeping the peace in Meereen and he essentially left Dany on good terms. I just rewatched the ep recently. Didn't seem he was bitter. Upset yes....but wasn't seeking revenge or anything. Now...if he sees her in love with some one else...maybe they'd go there. I got the feeling they were ending his story arc though.

But yeah when I heard about the sell swords being brought into the story first thing I thought of was Daario too.

Mike V. said...

Tower of the Hand review. Stefan brings up killing off an army that could've helped against the dead.....and destroying food for winter (which we discussed here) I'm sure those repercussions will be brought up in the show.

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2017/08/07-deconstructed-spoils-of-war/index.html

MJ said...

Cersei - have already said this but i think she will die by jamie's hand. Either she will be about to totaly kill her own city and he will come full circle and be the Queen Slayer. Or she will be about to kill Tyrion and Jamie will have to stop her. And yeah - thinking not til next season too.

Anonymous said...

Basically, Dany has been and is doing the WRONG thing. Her quest for power and wanting to RULE(as she says she's born to do) is resulting in WW wins. And so is Cersei. The difference is one woman has been advised of the bigger threat while the other is ignorant. These 2 women rulers are destroying a lot of assets with horrible decisions in pursuit of personal gain. I said it that way in re to last seasons Yara/Dany saying that their fathers and men were horrible. My take is that ALL rulers make mistakes btw. I can also see a series ending that takes into account the reality that a "good" ruler for all is near impossible. For one thing, so many in the realm have competing interests. And it depends on your perspective.

For instance, how can a person from an unrelated position say that Dany or Cersei is better or worse. Each has burned people alive in pursuit of their aims. Each sees what they are doing as "good". Of course the series tries to show one as good and the other as bad. But, one thing I LOVE about this series is that if you look at the actions from the perspective of each you can see them as doing good in their own eyes. GRRM has given us enough depth of each character to see some of their perspective.

I think in some regards Jamie saw in Dany some of the same things he saw in the Mad King and Cersei. Each wants to burn people alive. Dany certainly has done so more than anyone else--and yet she's our "hero"? As you know, she's never been my hero and for this series I really don't have a hero. And that's a good thing really as it makes the show more complex and enjoyable to analyze and watch. LOL, consider this, at one point Ned was my hero then we see his issues and he's quickly killed off. So many have been killed off that having a favorite other than Dany or Jon could be a short term deal.

And in writing this I must point out that D&D did the battle in last ep mostly from the Lannister's perspective. Which in some ways makes them sympathetic. Esp after the scene with Arya a few eps ago. I really enjoyed the balance. Who would have thought a few seasons ago that I would have felt sympathy for the Lannister troops.

Richard







Mike V. said...

Cersei – yeah I agree…It has to happen that way with Jaime…and I agree it won’t be until next season. Seems so much more dramatic to have the battle for the throne happening at the same time as the battle for humanity. Jaime slaying Cersei seems like Series Finale type stuff against a backdrop of dragons burning white walkers. It writes itself!

I still think the Throne may not even be in contention by the end….your points kind of allude to that idea, Richard. The system is flawed and Dany claims she wants to break the system.

You make good points about Dany vs. Cersei and their battle plans/policies. And good point on Jaime witnessing another Targaryan burning things. I actually thought about that too (or read about it somewhere else). I think the thing about Dany being a “hero” is that she’s not the hero ALONE. She has her flaws. Jon has his flaws (though I can’t think of them right now. He’s definitely got his eye on the bigger threat)

The battle was indeed mostly from Jaime’s perspective. But in the key moments where Dany/Drogon/Bronn/Jaime’s life were on the line we were left hoping that none of them lost their lives! (BTW…someone on a podcast GIF’d the moment when Jaime was saved from fire and confirmed it was Bronn. I have yet to see it though. I still think Jorah showing up there is a foregone conclusion)

I really didn’t feel too much sympathy for the TROOPS themselves, but they did do a good job laying that out with Jaime talking to Dickon before the battle. It’s all about the characters we’ve followed that we know are on mostly righteous arcs. So we want Cersei to lose so she has to lose her army…but we want Jaime, Bronn to survive. We don’t care about the Dothraki either but we do care about Dany and her dragon. (CARE might be a strong word…I know not everyone loves the character. Lol But we know she’s important to the story) That’s what makes this show interesting. IT started off rooting for one family (Starks) against another (Lannisters)….but then you learn to love Tyrion and Jaime....even The Hound who worked for the Lannisters. And you learn that each character is their own person and may not align with the family cause…and that’s incredibly important when they point their eyes to the larger cause.

Anonymous said...

For some reason lately, I've been thinking Bronn will be lost. For one thing a battle that huge this late in the series probably should result in a key death. He's just one that seems most likely. It would make both Tyrion and Jamie sad and so dramatic.

And recall that Jamie or Tyrion killing Cersei has been prophesied. She thinks it's Tyrion but I've been thinking Jamie for a while now.

I could list a lot of Jon's faults,lol. However, fighting the wrong battles and burning up much needed food isn't among them. I hope the series makes it clear just how bad it was of her burning up the food. Of course with this huge navy Dany has she could always go back to Esos when she gets hungry so maybe she's just not that worried.

Actually many people could sail to Esos for food. I don't know why that hasn't been mentioned nor the ability to import food from Esos.

Richard

Anonymous said...

OK, satirical question above re Esos and food. Food coming from Esos makes the need less dramtic.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Bronn is probably likely to go soon, but I can't imagine him not getting one more scene with Tyrion before that happens. You are right that we are at a point where there needs to be fairly main character casualties...I just don't know which ones are expendable before next season besides maybe Bronn. lol Probably Grey Worm.

Speaking of Essos...do we know if they experience winter? I can never tell about Winter if it's directly tied to the White Walkers or if they actually experience seasons. Because we know summer lasts for years and so do winters. If they eliminate the white walker threat will it just be summer forever? lol

Anonymous said...

Me too, I've wondered about a chicken and egg thing re WW and Winter. But I'm pretty sure Winter can come and go without any real WW threat South of the wall. It has for thousands of years anyway. I think the WW are always around in various numbers while winter comes and goes. I don't know how a WW would deal with summer however? Never heard of one in hot weather. They aren't in Esos. Esos has food. Maybe they have Sandwalkers, lol--SW.

To me the lesser remaining stars are:
Littlefinger
Grey Worm
Yara
Bronn
Davos
Sam's wife
Varys
The Hound
misandei
melissandre
Euron


And they aren't all equal. Note, no dothraki stars, hmm???

You can fill in the one's I've forgotten.

I bet at least 2 of them are gone by seasons end.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Good poing on Bronn and Tyrion. Actually a great point and could tie in with Tyrion trying to negotiate a Cersei surrender???

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yeah...there's no way they don't talk next week at the pace this is going. (Bronn/Tyrion)...as for negotiating a surrender? I dunno. TRYING might be the key word! lol

Good list of characters though I think Littlefinger will make it to next season. The Hound is a good pick too...I'd like him to make it to next season, but I dunno...people still want Cleganebowl lol

I'll try to add to the list later if I can think of any others.

Mike V. said...

Tormund, Thoros of Myr, Beric Dondarrion....I think really any of those could probably go at Eastwatch (maybe all?)

Anonymous said...

Some of those characters and even some of the main ones aren't really in the battles to be taken out, such as Sam's wife, missandei and Varys. But, there are other threats than battles.

I think LF, Bronn and Grey Worm are into next season too. Did you notice how easily you changed my mind re Bronn, lol. Given next week's title, I don't know about the Hound and Davos?

I can't see the Tarly's making it past this or next ep, even Dickon is a likely goner.

Richard

Anonymous said...

I agree on your list of others going to Eastwatch. That will be a significant battle which Jon may loose or get out of with help from Dany.

How about not having a significant dothraki at this point? I'm still thinking about Daario too.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Ep 5 photos. Ep is 59 minutes long which means the last 2 are the ones over an hour.

http://ew.com/tv/2017/08/09/game-of-thrones-episode-5-eastwatch-photos/

Mike V. said...

Dothraki – they’re just an army at this point. All of the ones that we knew from season 1, 2 are gone. Even the ones introduced last year were killed by dany’s dosh khaleen fire. That’s why I said earlier we don’t care if they get killed…

Anonymous said...

Dothraki, ok then. WW targets, lol

Richard

Mike V. said...

I could see dothraki being armed with dragonglass bow and arrows and being useful against the wights/walkers maybe???

Anonymous said...

Can you imagine a seen where Bran helps negotiate a truce between the NK and Jon??

Richard

Anonymous said...

seen vs scene, lol I'm also working

Mike V. said...

I guess I could imagine it yeah lol. I'm sure there will be some kind of twist with the white walkers/night king or at least some more back story to them. But I still see them needing to be taken off the board.

Ok so I rewatched end scene one more time. After bronn gets up from the scorpion destruction he eyes up his white horse. If you freeze frame the jaime charge you see a man jump off a white horse to knock Jaime off his white horse. Both horses get toasted and they go into water. So that explains the "super jump" and pretty much confirms it was bronn that saved Jaime. But I still think we'll see jorah soon. Lol

Bing said...

Couldn't Jorah have a white horse now.
Why would Bronn be riding after Jamie at that point? He wouldn't have caught up to Jamie to save him in the time Dragon turned his head. Jorah would have already been heading towards Jamie to save Dany.

Bing said...

They set it up to look like Bronn, even more reason to think it's not him.

Mike V. said...

I think the key connection is the clear couple seconds given to Bronn staring at a an unmounted white horse. If he wasn't the one to kick Jaime off his horse, what's the payoff to Bronn looking at that horse? Unless, like you said it's a diversion? As for TIMING....TV MAGIC! lol

I'm fine with either solution, but I'm leaning towards it just being Bronn...but Jorah showing up. Unless Jorah's fate is to run into the Golden Company. Speaking of which.


BOOK STUFF (May or may not be incorporated...probably not):

Listening to the latest Binge Mode podcast reminded me of who the Golden Company was in cahoots with in the books....Good ol' Young Griff (aka the man claiming to be Aegon II)....and there was a greyscale infected character with that group in Jon Connington. So maybe Jorah would fit into that story....but something tells me they truly are just going to be Cersei's new army with no real story there.

Ugh...I had other thoughts after listening to podcast but I gotta think about it. I'll be back! lol

Anonymous said...

Bronn saving Jaime.

Here's a link including screen caps showing it was Bronn who saved Jaime. I thought it would be cool if Jorah. I'm expecting Jorah to have a beach front meeting with Dany now.

Richard


https://winteriscoming.net/2017/08/07/tackled-jaime-water-end-spoils-war/

Mike V. said...

Another thing struck me that I think brought up last year and wondering if there's a connection.

Dany - mother died of childbirth (Targaryen)
Jon - Mother died during childbirth (Secret Targaryen)
Tyrion - Mother died during childbirth, Tywin wanted to prove he's not his. Always wanted a dragon. We know the books hint at it more...but maybe the show isn't really shying away from it either.

Oh...and there are 3 dragons. :)


Also had another thought about the Lannister children reuniting. What if Tyrion does become a prisoner somehow of Cersei and she's going to kill him and that is the pivotal moment where Jaime decides between his siblings and kills the other?

Still can't remember what else I wanted to bring up from the podcast. It'll come to me!

Mike V. said...

Interesting theory connecting Jaime to azor ahai (which there actually are book theories to support it as well. This is show specific). The cave paintings depict a left handed man with a missing right hand.


https://www.inverse.com/article/35304-game-of-thrones-season-7-cave-painting-jaime-lannister-azor-ahai

Anonymous said...

Great analysis. I get it. Tyrion possibly has some Targaryen blood. I kind of doubt it though given how he is around the dragons. I'll look into some other Targaryen mothers. I can't believe all Targaryan mothers can only have 1 child though. Unless you're saying these 3 are special for some reason? Dany and Jon have shown some special abilities, maybe ALL those abilities from the lord of light btw, hmm, just maybe, lol. What has Tyrion shown as special abilities? It would be very interesting if he was though.

BTW, if those 3 rode dragons do you think the story emphasis on families would move from Stark to Targaryan. Or maybe it is already shifting.

I don't think Bronn nor Jaime would let Cersei kill Tyrion. I just can't see it, especially after Jaime learned Olenna killed Joffrey. So, yea if it came down to it, I suspect Jaime would kill Cersei to save Tyrion. But, I think it's going to be more around fire. And fire will cause caution on the part of those serving Dany. I really like the parallals between Dany and Cersei. Like 2 sides of the same coin in a way.

Richard

Mike V. said...

I still don't see eye to eye with you on "how he is around dragons". He seemed to be okay with them buzzing Jon Snow (Rhaegon btw...named after Jon's father) a couple episodes ago. He said you don't get used to it, but I think he was more than Jon. I was suggesting maybe the 3 of them are special and part of the prophecy (which coincidentally I stumbled upon that article suggesting Jaime might be the 3rd and not Tyrion). Tyrion's ability is his mind I guess...of course that has been called into question with his recent strategic moves...(but as hinted, he could've been pulling punches not to get Jaime killed).

That just reminded me of the other podcast thing I wanted to bring up (when you mentioned Bronn).

It was all funny and stuff with Bronn bringing up the castle, but if you look at Bronn's history...he wants to move up in the world and doesn't want to keep risking his life to do so (excluding saving Jaime). He wants his castle and to be done...and Jaime is promising "when they win the war". Hmmmm....if he runs into Tyrion and has seen what Dany and her dragons can do first hand....any thoughts he might switch sides to go with Tyrion? Obviously (maybe not obviously but we think) Jaime will get there eventually...but I could see that causing a short-term rift.

There definitely are parallels between Dany and Cersei.....which can also be tied to Jaime...he was reliving a Targaryen wanting to burn people alive....last time he sacrificed his reputation to save King's Landing....this time he was willing to sacrifice his life to save his men and potentially save the world from Dany and her dragons. Misguided honor but still....he's consistent. And it's probably related to what will finally be the straw that breaks that gets him to go against Cersei.

Bing said...

I agree all signs point to Bronn saving Jamie, but the moment it happens they don't show his face. Why would they so obviously set up all the clues to point to Bronn then not just clearly show him saving Jamie?
We don't know that Jorah's still has his brown horse, he could have given it grayscale ;)
He could also be wearing lighter armor, similar to Bronn's, while he's wounds heal.
To me the only way Bronn performing such a heroic and selfless act makes sense is if he dies I the next scene. Does Dany kill him for hurting Dragon? Maybe she forces Tyrian to chose between killing either Jamie or Bronn to prove his loyalty to her.

Anonymous said...

What, wait a minute. You're saying there's a fan theory that Jaime is a Targaryan?? I don't know how given he's Cersei's TWIN? Please provide more info.

I strongly object to the word "misguided" re his honor going after Dany after the horror she brought.

Bronn changing sides, hmm. He is a sell sword. What would Dany/Tyrion offer him? She seems to place a lot of emphasis on loyalty. I definitely think Bronn and Jaime will fight with Dany/Jon's forces against the WW. Jaime has a Valarian sword. But, how they get there in the next 2 to 3 eps will be interesting. I'm not thinking Jaime and Bronn will be fully on board fighting the WW until after Cersei is dead. Maybe first ep next season. But, and you have a good point, Bronn may join Dany earlier. Jaime would likely have a hard time joining Dany given how she burned so many men alive. If you were Jaime you would see Dany worse than his lover,aka cruel Cersei. I can't see him joining her as much as joining "the fight" to save humanity. He knows how important the food is for the common folk that Dany burned.

Others around Dany are somewhat used to the dragons, missandei for one. They aren't ducking,etc. There's a special bond between Dany and her dragons. I'm just wondering if Jon will have it. Other Targaryans have had it. And if he is seen to have it, then things will change dramatically! I think he'll meet one next ep!

Richard

Anonymous said...

@Bing--Again, the Jorah saving Jaime thing sounds interesting. And you're right if Bronn did it, then he's got a good chance of dieing next ep. But, that depends on which side of the river they come up on. I'm thinking Jaime and Bronn will wind up safe near KL.

BTW, who has more motivation to save Jaime--Jorah or Bronn?? Whoever saved Jaime put their life on the line.

BTW, IF Jorah saved Jaime's life, I could see Jaime offering Jorah his valarian sword.

I think Jorah will get a valarian sword. His Dad had one. AND could Jorah become the next Blackwatch commander? I mean IF there is a Blackwatch.

Richard

Bing said...

Richard,
Jorah wasn't trying to save Jaime, he was chasing Jamie down to stop him from killing Dany. He was already on his way to knocking Jaime off when Drogon turned his head towards Jaime. He just continued his course and took Jamie out. Makes more sense than Bronn reacting so quickly in the couple of seconds it took Drogon to turn and fire.

Anonymous said...

@Bing, well at least that's a good motivation for Jorah.

Are you up to speed on the valarian swords and their importance?

Richard

Bing said...

Richard, It looks like Jaime sank like a rock. Not sure if he could make a one handed swim in heavy armor across the river to escape to KL.

Bing said...

I like the thought of Jorah getting a valerian sword. Maybe Jon gives Jorah Longclaw so he gets his fathers sword back, though it's unlikely.

Mike V. said...

I don’t think it’s a theory that Jaime is a Targaryen…I posted the link above to speculation that he might be Azor Ahai and there are book theorists that say this as well. He could be 1 of 3 that make up the prophecy though. I was just saying that it was coincidental because I was just bringing up Tyrion and then I read this article. Lol

Misguided may be a strong word….they’re just on opposing sides of the war. But, they may find themselves on the same side eventually. That’s all I meant.

Did you see my comments last week that there are theories that ICE will need to be reforged? And that maybe it’ll be Gendry that does it on the show since he’s a blacksmith? He would’ve had to pick up the craft of forging v-steel though. Apparently there are lines in the book that speak to it. It might be Tyrion. I’d have to look it up. But now we know that Jaime has half of the sword and Brienne has the other. You mention “getting there” in the next 2 to 3 episodes. It might not happen that quickly for everyone. But considering the pace everything is moving it might!

So you still think Cersei may die soon? I’m really leaning towards her making it to the end and it being part of the climactic conclusion against the backdrop of WW attacks now. “fight all your battles at once” But really anything is on the table now. Yes joining the fight makes more sense than joining Dany…agreed.

You think Jon will meet a dragon next ep? I still haven’t looked at the pictures for the next ep (I shared the link, but didn’t look lol)

@Bing/Richard – Yeah he’s going to have to get rid of his armor and possibly hand to get back the surface unless bronn (or Jorah for argument’s sake) brings him back up. Bronn isn’t wearing as much armor so he could probably be okay. But I think the assumption is that they’re probably going to be captives of Dany. Right?

Anonymous said...

@Bing, good point on Jamie having a hard time to swim with one hand. We'll see, I just don't see him being captured. He did that a few seasons ago, lol.

Yes, Cersei will make it to at least the first ep of next season. That's why I'm thinking Bronn may go over before Jamie. I just don't see Jamie leaving until Cersei is dead. But, I could be wrong. REgardless, he's the most likely to kill her.

Yes, and I've read others talk about reforgning ICE. It's kind of a big question of why though AND who would use it? It'd weigh more than Arya, she couldn't use it, lol. SEriously, any answers on this would be appreciated.

I could see Jorah being offered Longclaw by Jon. But, I just don't see Jon without a valarian sword. Maybe the answer is that Jamie and Brienne are killed then the sword is reforged for Jon??

MIke, that LINK, I did NOT see before. WOW, it's got something to it. The pic with the sword in the left hand and a glove like right hand is powerful. And, I like this line from the article:

"After all, the original Azor Ahai killed the woman he loved in order to win the war."

I'm wondering, Cersei anyone?

The born of smoke and water is a huge stretch if it turns out to be the last ep though.

It only makes sense that Jon will see Dany come back from her burning people and food to see Jon on the beach. LOL, I've been thinking of LOST lately with how Dragonstone has become the beach scene meeting place. Everybody is just hanging out at the beach, lol.

I'm thinking Jamie/Bronn/Jorah will NOT be captives by Dany. I'm thinking they will make it back to KL.

BTW, have we ever figured out why the Children of the Forest created the WWs in the first place?

Richard

Mike V. said...

It's a good point that it doesn't make sense Jaime would leave Cersei until she's dead...UNLESS he was captured again?? Surely Jaime and Brienne will reunite again at some point right? But I see what you're saying...that'll happen after Cersei is dead. I'll have to rethink my FINAL EPISODE approach. lol

ICE - I dunno...if it had to be reforged that would be because it has some significance against the White Walkers....I know it's a Stark sword passed down through the generations but I don't know its origin. I'll have to look that up. I DID think that maybe Jon would potentially use Ice...good point with Jorah. Surely Jorah will meet Jon and they will discuss the sword at some point.

Yeah...I think that's what the link was getting to with Azor killing the woman he loved to win the war. CERSEI. History repeats itself...Another reason why I'm thinking it might happen near the end of the series.

I thought it was born amidst Salt and Smoke. (the prophecy) not water.

yes the dragonstone beach set has been very popular this year. Apparently, it's some beach in spain. It's a nice backdrop!

I really have no idea what's going to happen with Jaime/Bronn.....Jorah wouldn't be a captive of Dany's. lol


Children of Forest - I think they did talk some about that last season but I was kinda alluding to that in an earlier discussion (you know one of the 90 comments above lol)....that maybe we're going to learn more of the White Walkers' plight before the end. Not necessarily to make them sympathetic but to understand their motives more. I'm thinking classic LOST...you know when we'd get backstories on our villains and view them differently. Even Man in Black who we ultimately still wanted killed.

Anonymous said...

Cersei--well, I'm not saying she has to die in the first ep of next season. Just NO earlier. And next season is supposed to have 6 long eps, so there's some time for things to unfold. I don't think she'll make the finale though. I think by that time things will have become very focused and climatic and to some extent start in the direction of Spring, lol.

I get your point, it's about the ICE, lol. But, 2 "heros" will have to give up their swords. Do you think Jamie will have to die for him to give up his sword? Maybe not, he's already offered it I think. BUT, for him to be the guy in the cave drawing, he will need a sword.

OK, was Jamie born amidst salt and smoke?

You may recall that I was a sort of fan of the MIB.

Yea, I'm even thinking Jorah will meet Dany on the beach. Pina Colada's on me, lol.

Richard

Anonymous said...

I love that Inverse GoT website. Great comments on the Iron Bank!! I was wondering about some of those issues.

And its' points re Sam at Oldtowne and what's left to learn. Hmm, so Bran may not be the one to tell Jon. And your wish about Jon being legit vs a Snow could be in play.

Nothing wrong with 90 comments, lol. AND I'm getting a lot of work done too!

Richard

Mike V. said...

Cersei - Gothca...makes sense. I'm just trying to think what would be dramatically the most satisfying. If you mix up the "game of thrones" with the battle against the dead...that might be the biggest emotional payoff. But yeah...once Cersei is gone it's a full on battle against the dead...unless somehow Littlefinger becomes even more of a mustache twirling bad guy. lol

ICE - I really haven't given it much though other than there is a theory it needs to be reforged. I did a quick google and can't find anything concrete on the theory. I'm sure a deeper search would find something. I'll see what I can do. lol but yeah Jaime and brienne dying to reforge the sword...good points. I think jon would say the sword shouldn't be reforged because multiple weapons against the WW would be more useful. Maybe when the war is over Gendry would reforge it as a symbol of the restoration of the Starks....but then you get into the whole "breaking the wheel" thing and what exactly does that mean in the end?

Jaime - If it's salt water?? and definitely smoke.....and then -> Is this a triggering event for Jaime to change his ways? Enough to be REBORN? Then there's something to it. Dany...the whole funeral pyre is her "rebirth"....Jon was literally reborn...in the book there are more references to salt/smoke I think but In the show there may have been torches around when he was killed...reborn. lol

I vaguely recall that about you and MIB. lol I remember clear debates that people were actually supporting him in the end. Knowing your opinions better now I feel confident it was you I was arguing with! :)

lol on the PINA coladas.

I didn't read anything else on Inverse but I'll have to check it out. The Sam stuff too. Interesting.

Oh I wasn't complaining about the 90 comments...I was just saying that it would be impossible to remember that I brought up that topic. I already forget what topic I was talking about when I said we were at 90 comments! :)

Mike V. said...

"If he somehow got his marital status to change, that’s something there could be a record of in the Citadel."

https://www.inverse.com/article/35315-game-of-thrones-season-7-new-photo-sam-reading-citadel-rhaegar-targaryen

Very interesting point!

I like that site too. I like all of these articles one which you also referenecd. lol


https://www.inverse.com/article/35348-game-of-thrones-season-7-catspaw-dagger-importance-targaryens

https://www.inverse.com/article/35341-game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-4-cersei-lannister-debts-iron-bank-tycho

Mike V. said...

That's really good insight on the citadel...They certainly are proving that Bran knows stuff by the things he's saying to people. But if Bran says to Jon or anyone "he's actually a legitimate Targaryen" it means little to nothing. That's like Ned Stark saying Joffrey is a bastard and has no claim to the throne. But with actual proof? That might go somewhere.

Anonymous said...

I"m thinking now that LF will try to work with the Iron Bank. I don't know about his success in this regard however.

Given the cave markings(doesn't that remind of LOST, lol) I'm thinking the battles could come very far South. That will result I suspect in a single focus vs a game of thrones. And in a way, maybe that single focus in direct opposition to LF theory of fighting ALL fronts could be satisfying. Just a thought. I keep trying to figure out when Dany will be walking around the Iron Throne room in reference to the WW battles.

Dany has a clean rebirth of smoke and fire, etc. Jon being resurrected by the lord of light is likely under that kind of deal and the show could have done more to relate the prophesy. And, if Jamie is burned and near death maybe that will qualify.

Richard




Anonymous said...

You know, shows seem to leave a little unanswered. Maybe the audience will know about Jon but it won't be verified/accepted in the show? It may also allow Jon and Dany to consummate a relationship more easily.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Interesting idea with LF...possibly. The podcast I'm listening to now things he may try to pit the stark kids against each other. But the 3 of them together form a super team. Sansa has some good diplomatic and conniving skills, Arya is the ninja assassin and Bran is omniscient. lol They may take LF down.

Yes the minute I saw the cave markings I thought of the candidate cave. I agree the battles will come south. I'm not quite sure how yet...that would mean they would overrun winterfell. But I still think Cersei could be in denial until the walkers are at her door. Yeah I'm wondering about the throne room prophecy too. I keep thinking it'll be a misread prophecy and maybe Cersei will have scorched the red keep herself..mad queen style (And Jaime will kill her all that stuff)

Exactly on the prophecy stuff with the trio. I just never really considered Jaime so I gotta wrap my head around that.

I hear what you're saying on the verification...but no...Jon needs to find out. And they're really hinting at it in every episode now. Even with Jon's lines like "my parents weren't married" and "I'm not a Stark" They mean one thing but can be meant to mean something else. The reveal is coming! As for consummation....like MJ said...maybe that happens before Jon knows....or maybe they just do it anyway. Or maybe they are attracted to each other, find out they're related and then don't do anything about it. (i.e. George making Luke/Leia twins in Return of the Jedi after they kissed each other in Empire lol. But this time it would be intentional!)

Anonymous said...

At this point, I hope the reveal not only comes but is indisputable.

Jon and Dany not being intimate would be a huge let down. It may not happen, but I believe it will if not only for one of them to sacrice their life to save the other. Something like that anyway. The SLOW build up between them is I think showing the foundation for a very strong love. But, hey what do I know, romance is not my specialty at all. I don't see this full on love afair to begin any earlier than this seasons' finale, probably later.

A Targaryan heir would be great too.

I've done some more reading about the Targaryans. Aegon was married to 2 of his sisters at the same time.

And the dragons died in a Targaryan civil war.

Richard

Mike V. said...

I'm in my car on phone so I'll write more later but this is something to think about. After the death of her unborn son, in the books dany was unable to have children. I don't think they went that route in the show though.

Anonymous said...

maybe melissandre will take care of that

richard

Mike V. said...

@Richard weren't you the one saying you don't see the love growing between them? Or were you purely speaking of chemistry between the actors and not the intent of the show? lol

There clearly is intent by the writers to show an attraction (even if it has to be clarified by the showrunners after the fact). The question is how far are they willing to take the legacy of incest in the world and apply it to arguably the 2 main characters/heroes of the show? There is precedent in the Targaryen family and on the show so it certainly makes for an interesting debate.

For some reason, I think the majority of viewers would not even mind that they're related at this point. I don't know the credibility of it, but people are commenting online that there is precedent in medieval times for aunts/nephews and all sorts of relationship pairings to marry.

But in the books there certainly is the pregnancy issue. Of course, do we know if it's true or is it something that witch mirri mazz whatserface told Dany? In the show it's never been brought up so it's a non-issue. I'm not sure what Melissandre could do to fix in the books, but in the show it shouldn't be an issue.

Anonymous said...

That's been one of my points. The actors, particularly Kit aren't that good. So, the show runners have to tell the audience what the actors couldn't, due to their lack of skill. I think given what has unfolded it would have been better for the actors to have carried the weight and let it grow slowly as the actors actually got better at working with each other. Of course I would be happy if they just worked together and no romance happened. But, at this point it looks very much like it's supposed to happen.

And yes, it was a normal practice for the royals to marry each other, particularly cousins. This is part of keeping the bloodline royal. Given my studies of medieval culture, I have zero problems with Dany and Jon as Aunt/nephew. Now Cersei and Jamie are much closer in relation and even in medieval times that would have been unusual. For one thing the marriages were normally to unite houses, not within the same house. So, cousins were very often married and so could an aunt/nephew.

I really don't see it as even a little strange. It's kind of fun to joke about it. But, yes it was very normal. And not just for Europe.

Aegon, as I noted above married BOTH his sisters. And they both had his children and were married to him at the same time. So, the Dany/Jon stuff is very mild in comparison.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Very good points on the marriage customs. While not custom to what we're used to now, the Aunt/Nephew thing does seem mild in comparison to other stuff. lol

I sense a hint of flirtation between the 2 leads. Yes it would've been better if they were given more time to make it grow, but given the story...that wasn't really possible. And it's such a momentous occasion for these 2 to come together given the 6 year build-up. Some people were suggesting that D&D did chemistry tests when they started to show to make sure it would work. I still think Kit has come a long way in the acting department. And they're selling it to me. We'll see how it goes from here.

BTW...did you know Kit is dating the actress that played Ygritte in real life? lol

Anonymous said...

NO, but that makes sense. He needs to be in a relationship where someone is willing to have the steering wheel, lol.

Especially not so good actors, like these 2, need time to develop their abilities and in this case particularly, with each other.

Cousins still marry cousins btw. Legal in many states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_law_in_the_United_States_by_state

Still encouraged in many countries.

The CURRENT Queen of England is married to her 2nd cousin.


Richard

Mike V. said...

lol too funny.

I'm all for observing bad acting. And I could probably point to some in Thrones. But I really do think Kit and Emilia are doing fine in their roles. When I think of bad actors...especially child ones I can point to people like WALT in LOST. Thrones has done exceptionally well with casting for the most part.

I knew there were cases of 2nd and 3rd cousins that were legal, but I had no idea 1st cousin marriage was legal in some states...I'm shocked it's legal in the Northeast. I'm sure regardless it's frowned upon.

Mike V. said...

Saw this on an article of funny thrones memes. Thought of you Richard. Lol

https://fsmedia.imgix.net/0e/c3/98/a4/3048/463a/b1e4/0c27d44dedc8/tumblrouaqsa68rm1wwi5vvo11280jpg.jpeg?dpr=2&auto=format%2Ccompress&w=375