Monday, August 28, 2017

Game of Thrones: Season 7 Episode 7 - The Dragon and the Wolf

Hello friends and welcome to our discussion of the conclusion of Game of Thrones Season 7, the penultimate season.  Wow, what an episode.  What a season!  This finale went down pretty much the way we had speculated for awhile.  But, that didn't make it any less satisfying!  We should pause and just let this thought sit in for a minute.  There are only 6 episodes left of Game of Thrones.  And we might not get them until 2019!  And just as we got accustomed to people traipsing across GRRM's fictional globe at light speed, this finale actually slowed travel speeds down!  But, it was a welcome relief to let some of these character scenes breathe.  Let's dive in and discuss!

Discussion Points

King's Landing - The Summit at the Dragon Pit 

The scene setting for this meeting of all that is important in this great game was outstanding.  Unsullied uniformly standing outside the gates of King's Landing, the Dothraki Horde coming in and putting on a spectacle, the Lannister soldiers guarding the walls of King's landing, Euron's fleet stationed in Blackwater Bay as Dany's crew (Jon, Davos, Tyrion, Missendi, Theon, The Hound, The Wight) arrive via the ship.
  • I could recap all the great Bronn one liners from the episode or just say that they were indeed great!  Jaime summed it up when he said it may indeed be all about "cocks" in the end. Hilarious. 
  • This is pretty momentous for Jon Snow too as we're seeing his first time in King's Landing.  (well...actually, he's been as far south as Dorne (ahem...Tower of Joy!), but we won't go there.  yet)   Jon was baffled at the number of people living in such a small confined space.  He much prefers the North.  Again, insert awesome Tyrion jokes. 
  • Needless to say there was a lot of ramping up to the meeting.  No one knew where Dany was.  (We all knew she'd come in on Drogon!)  Cersei had her hit list for the Mountain if anything went badly.  
  • We learned about the Dragon Pit being the place that housed the dragons during the Targaryen Dynasty.  It originally housed Valerion the Dread.  But, due to keeping the dragons in captivity they got smaller and smaller with each generation until they become extinct.  
  • Bronn escorted everyone into the Pit.  And we got an awesome reunion of the "heroes of Blackwater Bay"  (Never knew we needed a title for the trio until Tyrion mentioned it)   Bronn, Tyrion and the magic cock (err Pod)!  Tyrion did address Bronn's uncertainty of sticking by the Lannisters and offered to double his payment as he did before.  Bronn said he's doing alright for himself.  
  • I LOVED the quick scene between Brienne and the Hound.  They both talked about how much they admired Arya.  And they actually bonded over it.  The Hound has shown a lot of growth folks.  The grinch does have a heart!
  • So Bronn and Pod leave for a drink and the fireworks are about to start.  Everyone enters the pit and takes their positions.  Still no Dany.  The Hound takes this opportunity to face off against his undead brother!  WHAAT!?!?!  CLEGANES in a giant BOWL!  CLEGANE BOWL!!  Ok, no.  But it's coming one day right?  The Hound just rants off hate towards his brother.  And it ended with, "You know who's coming for you.  You've always known."   Eh?  I guess he means himself, right?  Well it was an exciting preview for next season I guess.  
  • The Hound went out to go fetch the wight.  Meanwhile, Dany majestically arrived with her 2 remaining dragons.  It's quite an entrance.  
  • Cersei of course has to address her tardiness.  
  • Euron interrupts Tyrion to call out Theon.  What an a-hole.  This leads into short jokes at Tyrion's expense.  Cersei actually shuts Euron up to get on with it.  But, it was enough incentive for Theon's small arc in this episode. 
  • Tyrion, Jon and Dany lay out the case for a truce.  It's for the right to exist, to live.  No one has to love each other or live in harmony.  Cersei doesn't believe a word anyone says about the army of the dead.  So then the wight comes.  Was anyone fooled when the box opened and nothing happened?  I was about to get all pissed that we wasted that entire last episode north of the wall and lost a dragon for a dead again wight in a box!  But then it freaked me the hell out when it popped out of the box and charged right towards Cersei!   Cersei, along with everyone else was certifiably freaked out.  
  • It was a great demonstration to show how they can be killed.  The hound sliced it up and then Jon burned the moving hand and then killed the body with dragon stone.  
  • Dany chimed in saying she saw the entire army, 100,000 strong.  They also spoke about how every person in King's Landing would be part of their army.   
  • Euron looked at the dead wight and decided he's going back to his island where the dead can't get to him.  (We learn later that this was a lie) 
  • Cersei agrees to a truce on one condition that Jon as King in the North will extend the truce and remain in the north where he belongs and not take up arms against the Lannisters.  Jon, raised by Ned Stark, could not betray his honor.  And he tells everyone for the first time that he has pledged for House Targaryen.  UGH, JON!!!  I guess I don't have to tell him he's an idiot.  Everyone else, including Dany did that for me!  
  • So, Cersei basically stormed off at that news and said that the deal is off.  
  • Brienne goes to try and reason with Jaime.  (i.e. essentially the only reason she traveled halfway across the realm.  And for that cool scene with The Hound)   Brienne, once again, is there at a pivotal point in Jaime's character arc.  She's there to tell him that this goes beyond houses and honor.  She begged Jaime to talk to Cersei.  He knows she's right, but he also knows Cersei. 
  • Tyrion decides that it is he who actually will need to talk with Cersei.  Everyone objects but eventually agrees to his strategy.  It should be noted that both brothers challenged Cersei to have the mountain kill them in this episode and she couldn't do it to either of them.  
  • Loved the moment between Jaime and Tyrion with both of them acknowledging they're both idiots.  
  • The Cersei/Tyrion scene was intense, especially with The Mountain there for the whole thing.  Tyrion would not apologize for killing their father, but is sorry for what happened to Myrcella and Tommen.  Cersei brought up everything that happened after Tywin died.  They were left vulnerable.  
  • It was a great emotional scene between the 2 of them.  Tyrion talking about why he supports Dany, Cersei talking about family.  Tyrion talking about how he talked Dany out of storming King's Landing.  How Dany knows herself and hired an advisor to check her worst impulses.  Tyrion also discovered that Cersei is pregnant.  (the show runners said that Cersei intentionally was calling attention to this as part of her scheming)  
  • Jon and Dany have a moment to bond some more while waiting for Tyrion to return.  She mentions she respects what Jon did, but still wished he hadn't done it.  Then she talks about being the end of the line for her family.  (once again the show throwing it in our face that Jon is also a Targaryen)   Jon also informed Dany that the witch may have been lying about Dany not being able to have children again.  
  • Tyrion returns with Cersei and crew.  Cersei pledges to fight alongside the North to fight for the living.  When the great war is over, she hopes that they'll remember that she chose to help with no promises or assurances from anyone.  And then she called the banners.   All sounds great and promising!  But, this doesn't sound like Cersei does it?  We'll return to this story in a bit!

Winterfell - The Stark Trio Takedown

  • So, Jon finally sent that raven to Sansa! He told her that he bent the knee to Dany.  Littlefinger hints that they form an alliance through marriage.  Then he suggests that Jon be unnamed as King in the North.  
  • What transpires next is all part of an elaborate setup that has been going on for most of the season.  We suspected this after last week's episode.  What we really weren't sure about was how much Arya and Sansa knew about what each other was doing.  It turns out they were in on it together.  And of course they had all knowing Bran to fill in some blanks too!  
  • Sansa and Littlefinger talk about the faceless men.  Littlefinger talks about his strategies on figuring out people's motives.  He plays a game of assuming the worst.  He has Sansa essentially say Arya wants her dead for wronging her family.  But again, it was all a setup to make it appear as if Sansa was going to accuse Arya in front of all of the Stark banner men.  
  • Nope!  Littlefinger's game is finally up folks!  He stood accused for treason against the Starks and Tully's.  All of his dirty laundry was brought up.  We even learned the dagger was never Tyrion's.  It was Littlefinger's all along.  (I still wonder how he got it)  Sansa brought up all the stuff about killing Aunt Lysa, talking Lysa into killing John Aryn (which set all the events of the series into motion).  Brann threw in a final blow with Littlefinger holding the dagger to Ned Stark's neck warning him not to trust him.  Littlefinger's pleas for forgiveness was great.  He had never been in this position before.  This was one scenario he never played out in his mind.  And he didn't know how to react.  Sansa passed the sentence, Arya dealt the blow.  And just like that Littlefinger was bleeding out from the neck.  DEAD.  Rot in Hell Littlefinger!  DAMN RIGHT STARKS!!!   I think we pretty much figured out that this was the end of the road for his character, but what a way to go out! 
  • Arya and Sansa finally had an honest scene together where they talk about how much they respect each other.  Arya told Sansa she never would've lived through what she did.  Sansa thought she would have.  She's the strongest person Sansa knows.  Arya and Sansa talk about Ned and quoted him from the past about how the pack must survive together in winter.  Another great scene! 

  • Jon and Dany were drawing up plans to head north.  Jorah had suggested that Dany fly to Winterfell to avoid some hero northerner trying to kill her and become a "savior".  Jon said that they need to be seen together coming into White Harbor.  Dany decided to side with Jon.  Poor Ser Friendzone seemed to be hurt by Dany not taking his advice.  
  • Theon and Jon have a great scene.  Theon lays everything bare about how he struggled living as a Stark and a Greyjoy.  He was faced with an impossible choice.  (By the way, this could also be seen as foreshadowing to what Jon will face when he gets his news)   Jon said that he was raised by Ned Stark and that part of him is in there.  He can't forgive Theon for all of his sins, but the ones he can he does forgive.  Theon says he has to go save Yara, and Jon gave him his leave to go do it.  
  • Theon had to win over the remaining Greyjoys loyal to Yara.  That no named leader dude refused to listen to Theon and tried to kill him instead.  But, he made a mistake by kicking Theon in the nether region.  Loved it when Theon smiled and finally got the upper hand on the dude.  He killed the guy and this was enough to rally the Iron Born to his cause.  "NOT FOR ME. FOR YARA!"   Okay dude, go get her.  I'm sure some will be thrilled that this plot will continue into season 8!   Here's the thing.  Where is Yara?  Are they going to go to Pyke?  Because Euron ain't there! 

King's Landing (again)
  • Jaime, also, was plotting his strategy to march North with the banner men.  Cersei asks for a moment.  She pretty much tells Jaime that she never intended to march North to help them.  Euron went west to get the 20,000 Golden Company men that she financed through the Iron Bank.  Elephants too!  Her plan is to reclaim the 7 kingdoms while her enemies are busy fighting the North.  
  • Brienne and Olenna's words started sinking in to Jaime as he prepared to uphold the oath he made.  This is about the living and the dead.  He was prepared to finally walk away from Cersei.  She already told Jaime that no one walks away from her and threatened to have him killed by the mountain.  As I mentioned earlier, Jaime called her bluff.  And finally, Jaime has left Cersei Lannister!  And he's going to fight the good fight with his white walker killing sword!  And as he left on his horse, snow descended to King's Landing.  This reminded me of a scene in A Feast for Crows (book 4).  Jaime was in Riverrun when the snow began to fall.  He was equally pissed at Cersei, but for different reasons in that story.  

The Truth about Jon Snow
  • So, I did fully expect to get some resolution to the loose ends on Jon Snow's parentage.  I had hoped that Jon would find out himself, but it makes sense that this gets saved for next season.  It was great watching Bran and Samwell Tarley fill in the blanks for each other.  (Of course, how could the all knowing Brandon Stark/3 eyed raven not know the little detail about the annulment to Elia Martell and marriage to Lyanna Stark?  I guess it's one of those things where he needed to know where and when to look.  
  • Anyway, Sam went to Winterfell to find Jon because he wants to help him in the fight against the dead.  Bran told Sam that Jon is on his way to Winterfell with Daenerys Targaryen.  I loved that we thought this would be a vision and he was holding the raven scroll.  It was the biggest laugh out loud moment of the night for me! 
  • Okay, so we were finally treated to a vision of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark getting married.  (btw - I know they're brothers, but if they told me they cast the dude that played Viserys as Rhaegar I'd believe it!  They look exactly the same.)    Bran brings up how Robert's Rebellion was built on a lie.  Lyanna was not kidnapped and raped.  Rhaegar loved her.  
  • We then went back to the Tower of Joy where we found out Jon Snow's actual name is Aegon Targaryen.  (named after the original conqueror of Westeros.  There's an additional story in the books about another person supposedly named Aegon, but we won't go there)   But we found out that Jon/Aegon is the actual heir to the Iron Throne.  We have known this, but now the show has actually said it!  
  • Of course, this reveal is intertwined with Jon and Dany finally getting busy on the boat!  Aunt and Nephew doing the deed, solidifying their alliance, showing her the great white wolf, insert your own suggestive phrases!  Bran continues to say that they need to tell Jon about all of this.  This news is about to rattle Jon and Dany's worlds.  But, they may not have too much time to deal with that.  Because something else we predicted before this season even started is about to happen! 
  • I did find it interesting that Tyrion was observing this "union" taking place but seemed awfully concerned about it.  He seemed to know this was inevitable, so I wonder what the concern is?  We can discuss in the comments.  
Eastwatch by the Sea
  • Bran is by the weirwood tree in Winterfell warging with the ravens by the wall.  We see Beric and Tormund on top of the wall at Eastwatch.  While they chit chat about the height, it finally happened folks.  The Dead and the White Walkers descend upon the wall in full force.  They stop in an even line in front of the wall and wait.  
  • Here comes the Night King on Viserion.  The dragon breathed BLUE FREAKING FIRE!!!!  He torched a large gaping hole in the wall!    I'm going to guess Beric and Tormund survived, but it happened folks.  There's a breach in the wall and the dead are heading SOUTH.   THE END GAME IS HERE!! 
So, as we said last week, what would have happened if they never went on this suicide mission last week and Dany never brought her dragons north?  They wouldn't have had a weapon to get through the wall.  Of course, is this what the Night King was waiting for?  If he has the sight too, did he know this opportunity was going to come?  All things we might learn next season. 

This was a fairly polarizing season for fans.  We felt a sense of urgency to get things over with by the show runners.  It felt like a lot of these stories could've been flushed out more.  Then again, we got some amazing set pieces and big budget effects all season long.  And we can fully expect things equally as great for the final 6 episodes.  But, the expediency with how this show is ending gives George R. R. Martin a bit of a win too.  We have more respect for the time he's putting into writing these books the right way.  He might be lazy, but he's a stickler for details and interweaving these plots takes a lot of planning.  I'm excited to see his detailed approach to the end game whenever it gets here.  But, it doesn't take away from the amazing feat it is to produce this great show.  I enjoyed season 7 and will be anticipating the final season every day until it's here!  Time to move into the comments!  I look forward to our discussion.  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you eventually for the final season! 


MJ said...

Definitely - the one liners were flying left and right - and it was awesome, as was all the looks and double looks from people who had not seen eachother in a long long time. I really got quite nervous that Cersei was having Jamie killed ! And I guess she really is preggers. If only Jon and Dany had waited another week or so! LOL

So much to say - want to read your recap in full. Will be back.

Anonymous said...

I found this episode to be typical of this season-- some really good and some really dumb/stupid. Keep in mind that I've never preferred great CGI scenes over great writing/directing/acting.

Blue flame is hotter than orange. Yea, after all the theorizing about the magic in the wall, the horn, etc it came down to Viserion with the blue hot flame. And yes it does make me wonder about the NK being able to see as a 3 eyed raven. BTW, WHY does the NK want to go South? I've never understood his motivation?

LOL, Cersei scenes and schemes. So, the idiots asking for her help are worse off than before Tyrion's meeting privately with her. At least beforehand they KNEW her position, now she's fooled them. Tyrion's entire plan on this is a failure from getting the wight in the first place to believing his sister. And it sure looks like she's fooled Jon and Dany.

The Cersei/Jamie scene where he left was just horribly written and directed!!!!! Horrible, only saved by great acting. Two or three more lines for each would have made this a lot more understandable and believable. Briene's words were to NOT be honorable but to pursue the threat from the North whereas Jaime left with part of his justification to keep his word/honor. So, the Briene stuff with Jaime was directly opposite--just an example of the horrible writing. Anyway, the thing that got Jaime was Euron and Cersei. It was two things with him. 1, that she planned an entire huge military effort with Euron and NOT Jaime. 2, She essentially said that Euron wants to marry her and she's good with it. Which SHUTS hard the door between Jaime and Cersei. He's seen her do underhanded things before, for years. He didn't like them but he put up with it because of their relationship.

For the show, Jaime leaving does at least 2 things. 1,it open ups a Cersei/Euron relationship. 2, Jaime can alert the North to Cersei's lie.

MOre later


MJ said...

Heading to a meeting - just a few thoughts. Still not done with recap.

Holy crap ! Sansa and Arya were totally playing LF - and it was awesome. Can't believe they killed him this season though - figured that would be next year. And they totally went waaaay back to list all the stuff he has done. I know there was discusstion if they were in cahoots but I didn' think so. And Sansa played it beautifully.

Bran - didn't realize he had only partial info. LOL He was thinking Jon was Jon Sand. Too funny. Love how Sam and gilly has no problems getting into Wnterfel but they would not let Arya in in the early part of the season. And you are too late to tell him now Bran/Sam ! LOL

Yeah - no surprise she arrived via Drogon. LOL And Cersei being annoyed by being kept waiting. Loced the scene with the Wight getting right into Cercei's face ! While fune to watch - no way ! First Moutian should have stepped forward to stop it and Secone - no way they could guess the right amount of chain. But it was great tv. LOL Loved it that they had their special mention of Pod !

I was surprised that Cersei agreed so easily - and dismissed Euron - and only asked that Jon at the end of the Long Night not take sides for future queen and stay North. Knew it wasn't quite right - and of course she was lying. Sure we all rolled our eyes at Jon - but it is who is is afterall. Nothing fake or dishonest abut Jon Snow. Tyrion/Cersei conversation was awesome. No sure I agree with her logic that killing their father left them all vulnerable and therefore he was responsible for her kids death - but ok.

Anonymous said...

Hound and wight. Well, when he had just hit the box and the wight was very noisy not long ago on the ship, the opening of the box to nothing felt totally fake to me. So, yea, the no wight/wight, kick over the box, oh yea there's a wight and it just happens to have the correct length of chain while Gregor stands by and does nothing. All seemed silly. But, it was somewhat saved by some great acting by Lena. She looked concerned but in a way where she didn't want to show it. I thought a great job.

Tywin was feared and had loads of markers to call in. Nobody really wanted to fight him or his.

So, did I call it or what. Jaime leaving alone. He also pointed out that Cersei doesn't have her family beside her any more. So, she's picked those around her she wants and I don't think it will turn out well for her. I really have enjoyed the parallels between Cersei and Dany. And this could very well be Cersei's point of ruling poorly such as Dany did. When Cersei no longer has her brother or other calming influences around her.

This ep set up so much more than the WW war. There will obviously be battles for leadership after the WW war. And it looks like Yara and Sansa are going to be 2 of the winners. Yara because, well, she's a girl and it goes against what the Iron Islands are all about--note the beach scene where Theon says Yara's not going to let us do that any more, LOL. Sansa because, she has probably shown the most growth going from an annoying silly girl to someone much more considered and wise. So, Euron and Cersei are going to be a couple pursuing a Westeros campaign. BTW, Yara is back in Greyjoy land. So, when Theon shows up the majority of the Greyjoy's are going to be gone to get the Golden Company. So, Theon will save his sister.

Any bets if Dany gets preggers??? I"m over 70% that she gets pregnant. Just too much foreshadowing. And I admit I was wrong about Cersei being pregnant. I really thought she wasn't. Good call Mike, even if it was only 51%, lol.

LOL, Qyborn grabbing the wights hand, did I call that or what. I could see him grabbing the remains and going to work. It will be interesting to see if that plotline develops.


Mike V. said...

Hey guys. Just a heads up, I'm on vacation this week so my commenting may be sparse. I'm still home today but it was a busy morning taking my son to Kindergarten! :)

@MJ - yeah I did actually get worried when she gave the nod to the mountain for Jaime. I would've been shocked if he got killed.

@Richard - I hear you on character vs. spectacle. That said, we've had 6 seasons and some this year of character. It's been building up to the spectacle. It's basically a different show now. It's not the show we've grown to love but I still enjoy it. And this episode had moments of the former show.

I think we may get clarity on motivation for NK, but it could be as simple as he wants to dominate the world with the dead. He's jealous of the living??? lol I dunno. Kinda like zombies have just an innate need to eat the living and infect and spread. Maybe there's more to it. He was created by the Children of the Forest due to a fight against there may be some grudge there.

I think Cersei was legitimately frightened by the wight. She's also lost Jaime. Yes, she fooled Jon and Dany (maybe) But that war will be waiting for them later. It won't take long for them to figure out especially with Jaime riding north to tell them. If Sansa takes some of LF's advice to fight all your wars at once...and Jon finally listens maybe they'll figure something out there. We started assuming this year that both battles may happen at the same time. The dead will be in King's Landing...that has to happen!

Wait what???? why was the Cesei/Jaime scene bad? I'm sure about to read your thoughts. lol Cersei never implied she's going to marry Euron. She implied Euron thinks he's going to marry her. But yes her words were meant to hurt Jaime. I don't think she intended for Jaime to leave her there. And she still loves him. This was clear by her not having the mountain kill him (which is even stranger...she couldn't kill Tyrion either.) I thought the scene was pretty powerful. Yes...Brienne finally said "F oaths". Jaime broke an oath to protect his king...but he also has said in the past there are so many oaths you're bound to break one. But now he made a promise to defend the living and he intends to keep it. He finally had enough of Cersei's insanity and it was in part thanks to Brienne's talk...and Olenna's talk earlier. I mean I guess I can see your point a little, but this has been brewing for a long time. Cersei plotted in secret behind Jaime's back. Cersei promised to fight the dead....and Jaime was all for it. Cersei lied. Jaime had enough. He wants to be a better person.

getting to MJ and Richard's next posts!

Mike V. said...


Yeah...i didn't think Sansa and Arya would be in cahoots, but I did figure they both knew LF was up to something and the writers were playing the audience. It was cool to see they were working together. All 3 Starks.

Bran - You may not have gotten to it in the recap...but I'm thinking it's a case of him not being able to control it or know where to look. But more it's just a way to get Sam and Bran to piece things together! lol Funny on Sam getting into winter fell! Didn't even think about it!

lol on the chain being the right amount. I don't think they had planned on the thing chasing Cersei...but still funny with the chain! lol Yeah...i loved that Pod/Bronn/Tyrion and Varys got to have one more moment together. Maybe it won't be the last!

Oh yeah...i make fun of Jon, but I don't fault him. Even if he's really rhaegar's son...he's Ned Stark's as well. That was made clear tonight by the Jon/Theon scene. As for Tyrion being blamed for Myrcella and Tommen....well Myrcella yes....Tyrion did send her to Dorne which eventually led to her death. Killing Tywin allowed the Faith Militant to take over in King's Landing....and eventually led to TOmmen's death. Sure it wasn't all his fault...but similar to Littlefinger...he set things in motion.


Hound/wight - yeah you gotta just accept some stuff for TV (the chain) but it is funny. Cersei was great in the scene. agreed.

You called Jaime leaving alone? You called him being alone in the end. But, I thought we both agreed he might stay in King's Landing? I'm glad he's leaving, but I wasn't sure it would happen this season. Yeah lots of parallels between Cersei/Dany....i like Tyrion's clarification of the difference between them. Dany knows her faults which is why she hired Tyrion.

I still think these battles may happen simultaneously, but maybe not?? Yara, Sansa - yeah they will be power players....definitely sansa...i'm sure they won't set up this big plot of save yara and fail. lol I really don't think Cersei has any interest in Euron. I think you may be reading that situation incorrectly. She's using him. I'm sure losing Jaime is going to affect her too. And Jaime will still kill her...that has to happen.

Yeah i mentioned that in the recap...Euron is headed to where is Yara? You think she's at PYKE?

Yeah..Dany is definitely getting pregnant. lol on the 51%.... I saw a funny comment about season 1 vs. season 7.

Season 1 ....EWWWW INCEST!!!
Season 7..... YAY INCEST!!!!

lol Qyburn definitely had an interest in the dead stuff. If there more than 6 episodes coming I'd say there definitely would be a story there of him "experimenting" lol

Anonymous said...

Yara's at the Pyke, where Theon is going and it will be open for attack to save yara. I wish she were dead along with Theon.

I'm beginning to think next season we're going to loose almost everybody I like on the show and they're going to keep more of the ones I don't like. Certainly I expect a near generational wipe out of the current leaders so the "kids" will have their turn. This is something we speculated on years ago but it's impact is stronger now.

Cersei is definitely welcoming Euron, period. Is it strategic, yes. But, she and he are going to consummate their relationship! REcall Daario being left behind so Dany could have a political marriage. Now, Dany may actually like her partner and so has some luck which Cersei doesn't. ASk yourself this question. Who's crazier, Cersei or Euron? Seriously, how can that pairing go bad, LOL. The insanity is about to get worse. Cersei made it clear(but could have been a LOT better with somewhat decent writing and a couple more lines) that there won't be room for Jamie romantically. And he's always only been there really for the love. Go back to the Tully castle battle.

YOu can check, several times I said Jamie would leave alone. I said many times he's already alone. I never saw him staying at KL and defending it. I knew it was going to be related to him and Cersei falling out too. BUT, I thought it was going to be more around the pregnancy, possible miscarriage or it being fake, etc. I didn't see her choosing Euron OVER Jamie. But, in looking back it makes sense as she kept promising Euron and he was the one who brought a lot of assets to the fight. And ultimately she wants to win the 7 Kingdoms more than anything. As does Dany.


Mike V. said...

Yeah I knew brienne going down there would help guide Jaime on the right path. And I had thought he'd eventually be part of the big fight against the dead. But something we discussed last week had me thinking he might stay. I think I was thinking night king might fly across the realm and reanimate the dead so he might be needed down there. But I'd rather him be away from cersei.

Understood on cersei/Euron. We'll see! She's also pregnant. So who knows how Euron will react to that?

Yeah there's no telling who will die next season. We knew all these key players had to be there. But next season it's anyone's guess who is left standing. I think we can all agree cersei will die. It wouldn't surprise me if Jon or Dany doesn't make it. One of the starks will survive but it wouldn't surprise me if all 3 survive. They've been through enough. lol I could see theon dying to save yara.

I'll have to think about it. Lol

Anonymous said...

Jamie killing Cersei. Well, if it weren't for the prophecy I would now say no. He's left her. I don't know if they will see each other again? So, I am kind of doubting he will kill her. BUT, it is the prophesy that he or Tyrion will do so.


Mike V. said...

It's the prophecy in the books not necessarily the show. I think you're forgetting how quickly people travel across the realm these days! Lol

MJ said...

LOL on Ser Friendzone. Good point on Yara/Euron - He is heading to Essos and we don't know where she is.

Jamie - poor Jamie. I knew he'd have to break away from Cersie but his face when he found out that she'd made secret place with Euron behind his back - it was like a puppy being kicked. And did she really sa elephants ? LOL Weird.

As the years have passed the biggest truism is that all the bad stuff happend based on lies. Baratheon attacked Targaeryn based on the Rhaegar/Lyann lie. Lannisters and Starks started feuding based on the John Aryn lie. And I'm sure many more that I can't come up with right now.

I'm not sure I can call John Aegon. Just saying. As for Tyrions concern - he has trouble getting her to listen to him and probably feels Jon will be another road block for him with Dany.

The wall was Awesome ! And we were sorta right. Dragon breathed fire but it was blue ! Surely no one could have survived all that ice falling down and they all scrambled to get off the wall - but I'm sure Tormund will. And Beric as you said.

Ok - now to try to get to the comments.

Anonymous said...

OK, here's my list of "soon to die", not necessarily in order.
1. Cersei
2. Euron
3. Theon
4. Greyworm
5. Jaime
6. Bronn
7. Brienne
8/9. Dany and/or Jon---she's going to be pregnant and that didn't work out well last time nor does it for a lot of the mothers in this show.
10. Arya--taking out NK???
11. Tormund
12. Beric
13. Hound
14. Royce
15. Many random dothraki and unsullied, lol.

And yes, it represents most of the players which is what struck me this morning.


Anonymous said...

OH, I should have had 16. VArys and 17. Melissandre in the above!

OK, here's my list of almost sure to make it.
1. Sansa
2. Yara
3. Missandei
4. Sam and Gilly
5. Bran--but as I write this I'm wondering if the NK will do some sort of magic on him???

NOte, the one character I feel the most unsure about is Tyrion.

You see, the ratio of "soon to die" vs "almost sure to make it" is quite large(3:1).


Anonymous said...

Aegon Targaryan--I actually liked that they went with Jon Snow actually being Aegon. You may recall that I was pulling for there to be an Aegon several seasons ago.

Do you think Aegon/Jon and Dany will get married in order to make their baby not a sand/snow but a Targaryan for real?? It would be sad if they don't, very sad esp now knowing how important it was for Aegon/Jon that his parents were married. I really hope they get married since most of next season seems like it's going to be so dark.


Mike V. said...

Gonna have to get respond later to all of this but it is an intriguing discussion and I agree mostly on the points! Lol

Anonymous said...

So, is Jon Ice or Fire now??


Mike V. said...

Still want to respond to old posts but you can look at this 2 ways. Jon is the song of ice and fire. The son of the wolf and the dragon. Or you could look at Jon's speech to theon as future self reflective. lol he's both a stark and a targaryen. And the joining of Jon and Dany is the song of ice and fire. Either way they represent both.

Mike V. said...

Ok, snuck away for a few minutes from the kiddos. lol


Ser Friendzone - can't take credit for it unfortunately. Borrowed from EW's James Hibberd. He's been using it for years. lol Yeah...i just can't see Euron having had time to sail back to Pyke. But with some of the logic on this show lately, maybe. Just doesn't make sense that Euron wouldn't keep her close by.

Jaime - Yep she said elephants...first thing I thought of were the war elephants in Lord of the Rings. I figured they want some different kinds of warfare for these final battles next year. lol

That's a good point about everything being based on a lie...and Jon's stance on the truth. Once he finds out that "truth" it will be all the more reason to not lie to his enemies.

Yeah...I think we'll still be calling Jon, Jon....but yeah...Rhaegar named his first born Aegon who was supposedly killed by the Mountain after Robert usurped the throne. In the books there is someone else claiming to be that Aegon. So this is interesting on Jon's actual name being that. I wonder if GRRM plans the same. If so Rhaegar named both of his sons that. It could be all part of the prophecy he was given that he had to have 3 children. I'm not sure though...i'm sure I'll read more about it.

I think I had heard Blue Fire as an option in all the podcasts and conversations with you guys. But was pretty awesome! Yeah if we didn't see it they're still alive. (Tormund/Beric)

@Richard - the death list.

I think Jaime will make it to the last episode but he will die in some sacrificial way. But, I do still think he'll take out Cersei. But who knows??

Greyworm is definitely a good candidate. Theon, yes. Euron...absolutely. Damn..Bronn...I hope Bronn and Pod survive this mess! Arya....yeah there could be a downside to taking out NK...i hope she lives. But it wouldn't surprise me if she doesn't. Like i said..the starks have been through enough...hopefully the rest of them survive.

Boric - definitely. Hound - I think he'll kill the mountain. As for him? not sure. definitely the dothraki, unsullied and golden company red shirts. lol

Vars and Mel...yep they're goners....Arya is totally going to kill Mel. Oh and where the hell is Gendry??? we didn't see him in the finale. I still have a secret hope for him and Arya to get together. lol

Sam will survive...he's totally writing The Song of Ice and Fire when it's all over! lol

No clue on Bran...really depends what this 3ER nonsense is all about in the end!

I totally agree on Tyrion...i hope he survives..but no idea if he will. For all we know he could be the one helping to govern the 7 kingdoms when all is said and done. Him and Sam. lol

Aegon - yes I do recall. I just wonder if it's in GRRM's plans to for both of Rhaegar's sons to be named Aegon. It's possible.

I would think marriage is definitely on the table for Jon/Dany...but it depends when he gets this news and the fallout from that.

Mike V. said...

This is a great comment on Reddit lol

"Bran is now...Samwell's master codex. He is Encyclopedia BritBrannica. To have the most curious character meet and partner with the most omniscient character is to create the Internet in Wetseros. Sam won't have to dig through books and tomes anymore. He can simply BRoogle the answer and away we go.
They are instantly the most powerful people in Westeros."

Anonymous said...

Forgot about Gendry, hmm. I'm 50/50 on him. Disappointed he wasn't in the finale. I think he'll have more screen time next year(I'm pulling for 2018 since I'll loose interest and start to forget if it goes off for 1 1/2 to 2 years.)

I heard they were starting to shoot next season in a couple of months. They should have already been doing so!!! I mean they will need some winter and summer type weather for S8. BTW, not as much winter this season as they made it sound like there would be, IE their lame excuse for pushing out S7.

Forgot about Pod, yea he may survive, I'm over 50/50 on him surving. And yes, Jaime fighting in the end, sacrificing style. I think a lot of those who are on the Aegon(I'm going to try it on for a while, lol) side of my list will do that actually. I kind of see Bronn dieing in a battle fighting with Jaime.

Which would be more important, their child being a legitimate heir or worry about doing something that Targaryans have always done? I am pulling hard for them to get married. If Jon had a Targaryan mother he would probably have silver hair too!!

You mention Gendry and Arya. Why not Gendry and Sansa? I mean he could be given the Baratheon name. Arya doesn't seem to be one to settle down, besides I'm over 50% that she buys the farm. Maybe 50.5%, LOL. The more I think about it, the more I like it. How about Tyrion and Sansa? NO, been there, done that, lol. The way this finale finished it definitely set up some serious action after the WW war. So, having some romance may be a better chance than I thought last week.

Love the BRoogle, lol.

OK, I'm going to do it, post from reddit. Re Tyrion not looking happy about Jon and Dany. 2 posts follow. I really like what these guys said. Each one could be right.


"Maybe there's more to the conversation he had w/ Cersei than he's letting on.(we didn't see it all)

Whatever it is, there's a reason he looks so sad and disturbed and I don't feel good about it at all."

Another Poster

"That's because he wants to brake the wheel of monarchy. He wants democracy, not another house to have all their sons and daughters rule because of their birth right. He wants the realm to decide who's going to rule it."

Mike V. said...

I think I had heard that they may have had to adjust because the winter weather was light this past year. I know they filmed a lot of that WW battle in Belfast and had to create the snow artificially. (but some of those shots still looked like Iceland) I heard the earliest it would be (season 8) is late 2018. But more likely early 2019. No one is going to lose interest in the final chapters of Game of Thrones. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. Not sure if you've seen the ratings this season but every episode topped the one previous and they were all the "largest viewing audience in Thrones history". This is on the same trajectory as the final season of Breaking Bad. People that haven't seen the show are watching it and catching up because they want to be with it for the final ride. (a friend of mine binged seasons 1-6 this past year and was ready to watch season 7 live every week) So, even if you lose interest, your eyeballs won't be missed! lol (except on this blog of course!)

This is a perfect opportunity for GRRM to release Winds of Winter though. Though now I wonder if he'll sit on it until the series is over. Maybe he could get cracking on 7. (HAHAHAH i read it out loud in my head and heard my head laughing)

I'm having a hard time with the Aegon thing. lol I may still with Jon! But yeah...I could totally see Bronn dying. I just hope not.

I don't think the incest would be the's that Jon has a better claim to the throne than Dany has. It might cause some friction. He's always thought he was a nobody...She always thought she was the last dragon. The incest thing is just icing on the cake. There's also issues with Jon's "king of the north" status in Winterfell. But, I think he'd be fine ceding that to Sansa. BTW...I read that Tyrion's concerns with Jon and Dany could be around a possible heir and that conflicts with breaking the wheel. But that doesn't make sense since he had Dany break up with Daario for a possible marriage alliance. It's probably more that the love is ill-timed with what's ahead. I dunno.

When I read the books, Arya and Gendry had a special bond. They showed some of that on the show too. No matter how you slice it...Gendry is a bastard and I don't know if Sansa would go for that. Ahh that's true...he could be legitimized. Arya definitely doesn't seem the type to settle down but before she got all cold and calculated there was her bond with Gendry. Granted she's younger than him, but she's older than she was back then. I know you're thinking she'll die. I have hope that the remaining starks will live!

I still am not sure about white walker battle THEN Cersei battle. I think they're going to happen at the same time all the way to the finale.

LOL on you posting from Reddit! I see you found similar discussions on Tyrion's concerns. Nice.

MJ said...

SO Odd - my Chrome browser has stopped letting me on the site all of a sudden.

Richard - I know you've been on a Tyrion's plans suck thing for awhile - but to be fair Cersei fooled Jamie as well as the others. Heck the second time I actually believed her.

Not sure I agree that Brienne's message was truly meaning 'f**k oaths'. Really it is more like - bigger things then our smaller squabbles in our smaller worlds are happening. Start moving out of your little boxes and take a stand - Make a bigger and grander oath for all humanity.

Myrcella - sure Tyrion did send her away. Partly to hurt Cersei but also to protect the girl. As for the faith Militant - umm didn't Cersei bring them in and gave them powers ? I thought so. And Tommen would not have killed himself if Cersei had not made sure the Tyrells got picked up by the faith militant and then she blew them all up. Just saying.

LOL on the incest comment. Both ewwww to me.

Jamie could easilty see Cersei again if he has to go back south during the battle. Or him and others try to help KL even after what Cesei did.

Ugh - you guys post too much and too fast. LOL I can't keep up

MJ said...

Tyrions concerns - some are saying maybe he made a deal with Cersei re Jon that we don't know about and now that him and Dany are 'close' it will piss her off. But I doubt that.

Anonymous said...

If Tywin hadn't been killed none of those bad things some put on Cersei would have happened because Tywin wouldn't have allowed her to do those stupid things, lol. He had things mostly under control. Except for his stupid obsession with Tyrion.

I totally think Tyrion cut a deal with Cersei. And seriously, Cersei fooling Jaime can't be compared with Cersei fooling Tyrion. One loves her the other doesn't trust her. I can't think of a good thing Tyrion has done strategically for the wars, please help me guys? A top 3 would be appreciated. Did anyone catch Tyrion getting his sister to drink some wine. I thought that was pretty clever to loosen her up, lol. Yea, they really did the scene well with Cersei selling the idea that she was going to help. They had Tyrion standing right beside her with an expression like he was all in on what she was saying. That had me thinking it just MIGHT be true. And it's part of what makes me think he cut a deal.

Let me say it this way. If I had to choose between Tyrion cutting a deal(which includes knowing her actually supplying men was a lie) with Cersei vs being taken in and fooled by Cersei, I'm going with the former. He's an absolutely horrible army commander. BUT he's one of the best in dealing with politics and people! Again, go back to the wine and his quick observation of Cersei's pregnancy. BTW, aren't you supposed to stop drinking when preggers.

AEgon has stated that even with Dany's men they don't have enough men to fight the WW war. So, if they do have a Cersei war on the South and NK on the North situation, they can't win. Think about this. If the NK is a existential threat, ie EVERYTHING we have read and watched for the last several years is true. Then how could it be that he is defeated by an army fighting 2 wars at the same time? IE at 50% of a already too small force. But hey, it's TV, not the books, so silliness could easily happen, lol. And Cersei is lining things up while Aegon is busy fighting the NK. I CERTAINLY see this stupid Yara/Theon usurper action going on while Aegon is fighting the NK. And some skirmishes here and there.

The JOn Snow vs Aegon Targaryan thing is obviously going to intentionally be used as Jon told Theon. He's some of both. But, legitimacy matters or at least it did in the books and seemed to with the scenes of Bronn and Sam disclosing JOn's true name. Why call it his true name if it's not. Why not identify it as his "birth" name. Maybe it's just poor writing again, lol.


Mike V. said...

I agree with both of you on Tyrion killing Tywin. It certainly set off a chain of events, but Tyrion is far from 100% responsible for anything that happened to Myrcella and Tommen.

Sorry for all the comments MJ! I'm getting them in while I can. lol

The whole thing with Tyrion cutting a deal with Cesei. That's actually pretty interesting considering we didn't see them come to an agreement. We saw him say "you're pregnant" and then cut away. Interesting. Richard, Tyrion offered Cersei wine and she never took a sip, so I'm not sure where the judgement is coming from on drinking while pregnant. lol But...this is the equivalent of medieval europe and I'm pretty sure they weren't aware of the potential issues with drinking while pregnant. Hell, even Betty Draper was drinking while pregnant on Mad Men! lol

I think no matter what they do in the fight against the dead, they're going to be outnumbered. There's no way to win. But the armies and dragons can create a diversion for an assassin or something like that. I think they're going to have to deal with both the Night King AND Cersei at the same time. Maybe one will end before the other but I feel like it's going to be utter chaos in the finale. This will bring to fruition my vision of the scorched red keep, Jaime stabbing Cersei in the back as she's ordering some ridiculous command to bur King's Landing down to the ground, Arya will be going for the Night King with the dagger and all 7 Kingdoms will be engaged in a war against the dead. That's how I see it going down now. Could be totally wrong but I like it! lol Of course this might be episode 5 and then episode 6 is dedicated to setting up the new governing establishment in the realm. Like a 1 episode epilogue called "A DREAM OF SPRING"

I'm not following the poor writing paragraph with the names. Jon's birth name and true name is Aegon Targaryen. We have just learned this. Doesn't matter what words they used to describe it in the show. Why are you saying it's not his true name? I was just saying I'm so used to calling him Jon Snow that I probably still will. But yes...Jon/Theon scene was totally foreshadowing. It's also important to say that Ned Stark's presence is still felt in this show. Arya/Sansa reflected on the values he taught. Jon/Theon did. He may not be their father but he raised them both. And HONOR will win in the end. (Even though Honor has pretty much killed anyone that stood by it throughout the series) But I guess it's what you are honorable to. Arya has definitely done dishonorable things, but she's done it in the name of her family. I'm not sure where I'm going with all of this, but I like the idea of it! lol

Okay, time to pack for vacation. My responses will probably be brief and sparse for the rest of the week! But I'll try to keep up!

Anonymous said...

Well, in a few days the commenting will be practically none so I'm enjoying while I can. Then we have maybe 2 years until we can do so again. So, I'm all in while it's here.

I probably won't get wrapped up in another one of these newer series that don't have a good schedule until it's finished. Then binge watch the thing. Although the problem with that is there's no discussion or thought between the eps to add to the enjoyment. I've already forgotten about Westworld, lol. I'll watch the last season of GoT but I won't be looking forward to the long wait and hence the show itself because when I look forward all I see are empty months followed by empty months. Another way of saying it is that it makes no sense to look forward to Christmas when it's February.

Tyrion gave her the wine before he knew she was preggers. I'll have to watch again but I thought she grabbed the glass. I thought it was a smooth move on Tyrion's part to get her to loosen up.

I may be going over board with Tyrion knowing she wasn't going to help but I could see him having an agreement where she won't attack. Not help and not attack, something like that kind of an agreement. But, she is going to prepare to take over Westeros. And in a way if that's true that would mean Tyrion was betraying Dany and Aegon. That's hard to say but maybe that's the best he could do. MAYBE he was hoping to wed Jon and Cersei??? I know, seems like a stretch to me too, lol.

Tyrion sent Myrcella to Dorne and she died as a result of it--if she hadn't been in Dorne, she wouldn't have been poisoned. To me, it's more of the same where his actions don't seem to work out. Well intentioned and logical, but stuff happens which is beyond your control, ie chaos. Which goes back to LF philosophy. As I hear my father say re commanding troops. You have a plan but the enemy has something to say about it and/or you have a plan that's in place until you get hit in the nose.


Anonymous said...

Kit agrees, a lot of main characters will be killed off next season. I'm sorry but we will loose more Starks. BTW, if Jon/Aegon is killed will you guys count that as a Stark being killed off? I'm not sure, but he did have a wolf, hmm.


Mike V. said...

All I talk about is hope. Before I even saw the URL I was about to say I'm sure it'll be a bloodbath lol. I think Jon is very likely to die. When I speak of starks I mean arya, Sansa and bran. Bran isn't even himself anymore. So basically arya and Sansa. The least likely to die I'd say is Sansa. She will probably carry on the legacy of the stark family. But I have hope that arya may survive. There's a good chance she won't though.

Remember back when I said Rickon would be the one to carry on the stark legacy?? Lol

Anonymous said...

LOL, yes I do recall your Rickon suggestion. But really there can't be any Stark legacy to carry on, it's done. Sansa's children won't be Starks for example, nor can Jon's and Bran-- well he's the 3ER, not human I guess. When I was doing some reading about the Children and Bran etc it occured to me how sad it is that the Stark's who've been so long defending the North are done for, gonezo. So sad. There are really 2 Starks now(going by what Bran said) and it's very likely that one of them will survive. I'd say 100% at least one will survive and of the 2 and my money is on Sansa. Arya to me has about a 40% chance to live through the last.

I think the Kit interview tells me only a few houses will continue. The Greyjoy's are done for, gonezo since Euron will 100% be killed.

Right now, the Lannister, Arryn and Targyan houses have a chance to survive into the future. And Baratheon if Gendry gets legitimized. With the records kept in KL I could see Gendry being legitimized. REcall what Ned was reading about Robert's children, right?

Was I the only one who has noticed there have been zero gold cloaks around Cersei. That used to be a big deal but it just seems the writers forgot about them, lol.


Mike V. said...

You're thinking in old world terms. The wheel will be broken. Things will change. Sansa is a Stark even if she gets married. I think they'll make an exception and allow her to be lady of winterfell if there is such a thing in the future. Lol

I think cersei dismissed the gold cloaks in favor of the mountain.

Yes we spoke yesterday about Gendry being legitimized. I think you're right.

Anonymous said...

This isn't about the wheel being broken. Of course Sansa is a Stark and there have always been queens. I can't imagine the screwy things(exceptions) that todays' writers can place on mid evil culture, lol Maybe they can make her a male through sex change, lol. BUT, seriously there can not be a continuation or legacy from her to the next. Winterfell has only a few years(30 to 40, however long Araya or Sansa lives) of it being a Stark house regardless of the exceptions that could be made up. And if she marries Gendry it would make sense for her to move to Storms End and have little Baratheons running around--that's just normal even with a broken wheel. She would appoint somebody to run Winterfell.

Cersei dismissed the gold cloaks. Was that done off camera, lol? That really doesn't make sense either. I think they were ommitted so that the wight could get close to her for dramatic effect. But hey, I have become very cynical in how things are written.


Anonymous said...

BTW, I have family in Houston and my old neighborhood is under water. Their house is close to the flood in Woodlands. They are locked in can't get out.


Anonymous said...

Interesting interview with Nikolaj re Jaime and Cersei.

He didn't like what she was doing(basically bringing in foreign invaders) and felt no respect from her.


Anonymous said...

I saw the Tyrion/Cersei scene again and you were right, she did not drink the wine. Watching it again I'm thinking that contributed to his assessment of her being pregnant.


MJ said...

Confirmed - sow runners say Tyrion was conecerned with Jon/Dany being closer of his future with her and getting her to listen to him

Richard I am very sorry to hear about your family. I hope they stay safe.

Anonymous said...

Yea, The Friday Night Lights won't be on down there this Friday.

It was crazy to see my old neighborhood on TV under water.


Anonymous said...

Good info on 3ER and NK. Basically, he's trying to figure out why the NK wants to kill humanity. Which is something I've been asking too. Maybe we'll never know. I'm not even sure the NK will be defeated.


Mike V. said...

Vacation almost over. Will respond to everything. But wanted to share this Easter egg. Interesting!

Mike V. said...

I’m back! Hope everyone had a good holiday wknd. Richard, hope your family is safe. Sorry to hear they were affected by the storm.

Broken Wheel – lol on TRANSA (get it??) When Dany talked about breaking the wheel she called out the strong names of Stark, Baratheon, Targaryen, Lannister. The fact that a Stark always has to be in Winterfell is part of that wheel I would think. Baratheon’s in storm’s end…same concept. Dany’s campaign slogan is all about change (Even if she falls on old ways especially when asking Jon to honor bent knees of the past). Jon believes in Dany now, even though conflicts are coming due to his lineage. I don’t know if the Stark name will matter as much in the post apocalyptic world. I used to think it would. I used to think Rickon would be the last one standing to carry on the name. There is no one now unless they change laws and Sansa or Arya have children that are called Stark.

Cersei dismissing gold cloaks – I was speculating. All I know is after her walk of shame, she was introduced to “SER GREGOR” who would protect her and get vengeance on all people who have wronged her. So she keeps him by her side at all times. I know Tommen ended Jaime’s reign as a gold cloak, right? I swear that happened. Since then I really don’t remember them being around. Good point on the wight. She still had Ser Gregor there though.

RE: Jaime’s feelings on Cersei – Yeah I got that impression from the episode. She wasn’t respecting him and kept him out of the loop…AND Brienne’s short talk with him was hugely influential as well. Brienne the Oathkeeper says F Loyalty? You listen!

Tyrion assessing pregnancy – yes not drinking and touching her belly. But apparently, the showrunners (I think – I may have mentiond this in the recap) said that Cersei was intentionally trying to get Tyrion to figure it out.

Showrunners confirmation of Tyrion – I guess that makes sense.

NK not being defeated – Well that would be an interesting way to end the series! Lol It certainly would subvert expectations which is what Game of Thrones is all about. But, it seems like they need to bring a definitive end to this story.

Anonymous said...

My brother lost 2 storage units.

We've started looking at Irma here in SC.

In reality, I don't see the NK winning. We've had next to zero exposure to him talking and getting his POV. I wish we had a lot more from and about him.

More and more lately I think the TV show title vs book series title will come into play. Again, I used to see this more about Winter is coming and the NK threat. But, I see it now more as a Game of Thrones. The last 2 eps totally set up a continuation of manuevers for the throne while simultaneously battling the NK. I could see a uniting for a bit against the NK. But, I think for most of S8 we're going to see both plotlines unfolding. For example, it's hard to see the Bravosi sell swords battling the NK the entire time they are in Westeros. Also,I don't see Euron battling the NK much at all.

That's another reason why I think next season will be an absolute blood bath of the main characters.

And I'm feeling pretty good about my Gendry/Sansa match.

ON the "dies during pregnancy" front, I have to back away from Cersei or Dany. I don't think BOTH will die due to pregnancy. BUT, I'm pretty certain one will. Now, if I could figure out which one. I'm tending to think Dany since she's not had any children that's worked out. That and it seems more likely that of the two, Cersei is more likely to be murdered. She still has Arya who wants to kill her and Jaime is also a great possibility.


Mike V. said...

Oh man...that really stinks, Richard. Sorry to hear. I guess while that's awful, it's good that they're okay. Things can always be replaced. My wife tells me all the time. Her house burned down when she was a child so she has lost lots of her old memories.

Good luck with IRMA. I think we may get some of it up here, but I don't think as bad.

I think you're not in a minority with the Night King. I just listened to one of my podcasts where they wrote an open letter to D&D to embrace the fantasy elements of the show. They think they're afraid to get into it because it's the politics and scheming that lured the audience to the show and FANTASY stuff is kid stuff. Come on..... Sure it lured people to the audience, but then you reel them in. Just like lost...pretty people stuck on an island lured the audience in...but the crazy mysteries and the mythology brewed the obsession. (of course great characters too lol)

I will give you full kudos if you're right about Gendry/Sansa....I still think it was always Arya for Gendry if he's intended for anyone. Maybe he'd be able to bring more of her humanity back.

Gotta run to a meeting...i'll circle back to see if I missed any big points from your post. lol

Anonymous said...

Well, the politics and scheming isn't what got me into the show. It was the depth from the books. The fantasy element was much more important than the other since the other can be found on almost any show. If it weren't for the dragons and ability to withstand fire do you really think we would find Dany intriguing?

I think Lena Headey's pull has rewritten some of the story in that direction as well. I also think the misogeny criticisms over a few years has resulted in some changes.


Mike V. said...

Okay back to first post first.

Interesting on game of thrones vs. fire and ice. Dave and Dan always said they wanted to adapt the entire series. But yes they may place more focus on certain things other than GRRM. That said, I did post that quote from GRRM in one of the recap comment threads about how he was talking about his inspiration for writing his series….in that Tolkien didn’t get into the politics once the war for the ring was over….didn’t talk about Aragorn’s tax policy, etc…. So I think the game of thrones was always a priority in the book series as well….but the LONG NIGHT is definitely the culmination of events that puts in perspective the petty family squabbles. It should, in theory, unify the 7 kingdoms….but there are some that may use the situation to their advantage (AKA Cersei). I think it works that both battles will be fought simultaneously. At least I think that’s how it should be happen and fulfills Littlefinger’s advice to Sansa.

Also, don’t think we discussed…but the scorched Red Keep vision of Dany’s could be Viserion and the Night King’s work.

As for bloodbath…I don’t think there’s any way around it. GRRM always said the ending will be bittersweet. Someone(s) will survive, but we will lose a lot of main characters. There’s a reason no one of significance died this season…it’s because they all have important roles to play in the final episodes…but a lot will die.

Dies during pregnancy – Didn’t even think about Dany dying in childbirth.....or Cersei…. Cersei will not make it out of this series alive unless she has a full on last minute character redemption. And if prophecies mean anything…then she HAS to die because of this pregnancy. (and the child does too) If prophecies don’t mean anything then this could be a way to shatter that idea. If Arya kills Jaime…maybe she will have killed Jaime first and taken his face. I don’t know about that…since Jaime is on a redemption path. But he may have to pay for his past sins. I figured he’d make that payment with his life in a sacrificial way. I would love a scene between him and Bran in the final season. Seems that may be inevitable for some coming full circle stuff. (I always love coming back to the beginning before the end in TV shows)

Mike V. said...

2nd post

Politics and Scheming – I’m talking about for MASS APPEAL. Let’s be honest – neither you and me or anyone that goes looking to blogs and reddit boards for further discussion are the “MASS AUDIENCE” lol Never will be. We take these discussions to the next level when some people just sit down, watch a show and then forget about it until next week. They may discuss it the next day at work, school or at a bar but nothing too in-depth. These people aren’t usually into the FANTASY genre. But they might be into backstabbing and “incestual” exploits. Lol But, my point (and the point of a lot of hardcores) is that if you’re reeled in at this point, you’re in it for everything. They may still put a focus on the political angle…but there is no denying that the war against the dead is an important element to the show. I think D&D know that and will hopefully give us some more backstory on the night king in the final 6. But they already have every scene of every episode plotted out (and probably mostly written at this point…production starts next month)… if they haven’t factored it in yet then it aint happening no matter how many appeal to it. Granted…I’m sure they take what worked/didn’t work in the current season into account for the next season.

The funny thing was….GRRM wasn’t originally going to include dragons in the series….but someone recommended it to him. He wrote it in his dedication for either book 1 or book 2. Lol As for Dany’s immunity to fire…GRRM said that is a show invention….in the books it was all about the elements combined in that funeral pyre that made Dany survive the flames. She can’t just walk into a hot bath and not burn, or burn the Dosh Khaleen down and live to tell the tale. They gave her a super power in the show. As for intriguing…well she did do some impressive army building and dragon birthing in the early years/books of the show. So I found that interesting.

Misogyny criticisms – possible. I always thought with the “sexposition” that thought they needed that in the early years because it’s HBO and that’s what people tune in for (not the talks, the sights lol)…..but if you’ve noticed over the past years they used less of that because the story was so good in itself and people were hooked. It was certainly done more tastefully in later seasons. But if you’re referring to the “male aggression” for lack of using the ‘R’ word…then yeah…they may have tamed that down a bit since season 5.

Anonymous said...

Dany--that's what I'm saying, her dragons make her intriguing and ability to walk through fire. So, exactly, the dragons make her intriguing. It doesn't have to be both together.

It is funny how when I talk to people about the show I normally get a blank stare when mentioning ANYTHING beyond the superficial TV show. Most don't really want to spend the effort to go beyond simple mind dead/zombie watching, lol. BTW, if that term isn't already a thing, I'm making it one--"zombie watcher",lol.


Anonymous said...

Here are some questions that most don't have answers for:
1. Who is Daario
2. Who is Misandei
3. What's the difference between a WW and wight.
4. Any question about where a house is geographical other than WF up North and KL somewhat South.
5. Essos vs Westeros--yes a lot don't know the difference other than one's West and one's East
6. Valyrian steel sword importance
7. Who is Robin
8. Who is Beric
9. Who is Yara
10.What was the war of the 5 Kings
11.What was Robert's rebellion.
12.Who did Jaime famously kill

I could go on re the basics, lol.

That's a good point about Viserion/NK burning Kings Landing. Would be great action to watch.


Mike V. said...

Yes in general her dragons and her command of the dragons makes her intriguing. You could argue her crusade over slavery is endearing to her character and commands the love of her followers. So there’s something about her as a person that is meant to inspire faith in change.

Zombie Watcher/Popcorn crowd…all the same thing right? Lol I like the term though! I actually do have a lot of good discussions with friends, coworkers and family on the show. Of course, I’m one of those smug book readers that always has to preface the discussion with…”well, I’ve read the books” lol It’s tough not to! But, I think I was usually good at not spoiling on here let alone in discussions with people outside the interwebs. Now we’re in pure speculation territory. I actually haven’t met many people that aren’t looking to take the discussion deeper. But, I’m sure they’re out there! I should say there is no wrong way to watch the show. I just find it much more rewarding to go into the weeds. This is the very reason I decided to read the books ahead of the show. To have that backstory.

I remember running into LOST watchers that would just say something like “I hope Kate ends up with Sawyer” instead of wanting to discuss the mythology. Lol But usually they knew I blogged about the show and read the blog too. Lol

The questions – yeah…I sometimes have to go the next level to explain what storyline a character is involved in and what they look like before they sometimes know. But a lot of those I could probably bring up and they’d know. Maybe not WW vs. Wight because the show doesn’t really explain the difference too well. Robert’s Rebellion is another one…I loved a youtube video out there that pulled out all of the Robert’s Rebellion/Rhaegar seeds planted from season 1…it’s a great compilation that could be shared with anyone that asks that question. But yeah…that whole backstory is done almost completely through dialogue until Bran got the sight.

Speaking of Daario - Some do speculate like us that Daario may infiltrate the Golden Company and re-enter the story next season. But probably as a spy supporting Dany’s cause. We’ll see.

Mike V. said...

Forget if we discussed here, but it's been chatted on podcasts I listen to and I've discussed offline -

Let's throw out the "brother' theory on killing Cersei for a minute. And let's forget the fact that there were many witnesses to LF's death. Do we think that Arya may possibly take LF's face and head South to finish off Cersei? Apparently, Cersei made a comment to LF in season 5 that she wants Sansa's head on a spike...they could potentially conspire together to go down as LF and Sansa to KL. Doesn't really make much sense. This podcast I listened to talked about it being a Hound, Sansa, Arya mission....and The Hound would finally finish off his brother too. Could be interesting, but I don't know what the motivation to traveling south would be.

Anonymous said...

The prophies with Cersei have been right so far. She won't have this baby of that I'd bet money. I know she will die and probably be murdered, maybe ep 4 or so. So, yea my bet is that she's murdered since I'm all in on Dany dieing in child birth. So, Arya using the LF face is a great idea except for as you say the prophecy. OH NO!!!! This just occured to me. What if Arya uses the face of Jaime or Tyrion to kill Cersei. You heard it here FIRST!


Mike V. said...

I've said this before....the "BROTHER" part of the prophecy was not mentioned in the show so it's not necessarily in play. They can do something different than the books here.

I actually mentioned Arya using the face of Jaime earlier in this thread (and it's been theorized lol)...but I said it doesn't really work with our theory that Jaime will die as a hero and will sacrifice himself. I guess that could still happen and Arya could still take his face. That would be pretty crazy if she kills Tyrion though. There's no motive for it.

BTW...with Dany's vision...some are saying now that the "snow on the iron throne" might be just symbolic of JON SNOW on the iron throne. lol

Anonymous said...

I am being a little hard headed on the book vs show prophesy with the brother. The brother stuff being left out can open up somebody else killing her. I still think in the books the prophesy will happen. But, maybe for some reason they want it to be somebody else. I didn't catch your proposal of Arya using Jaime's face. He would be the most likely of the two. If it is purposefully left out then opening up Cersei's murderer to someone like Arya makes sense.

Not much of a nod to the bookreaders though. Actually kind of a dis.

LOL, "snow" on the throne.


Mike V. said...

Again, it really depends on how much we can rely on prophecies in the books to if they'd be letting us down. Here is a wiki of all (I'm guessing) mentions of prophecies in the books. Even commentary ABOUT prophecies on whether to rely on them. And GRRM's own quotes are in there too. I pasted them below. The fact that he mentions "too literal" is a good point. Arya wearing a younger brother's face would certainly be a good description of not too literal. lol


“ Prophecy can be a tricky business. ”
- George R. R. Martin

“ Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy ... ”
- George R. R. Martin

“ Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time. ”
- Marwyn to Samwell Tarly

(AHHH gotta love GRRM's beautiful analogies. lol)

“ Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head.”
- Tyrion Lannister to Jorah Mormont

Anonymous said...

Pretty good article on the WW. Actually very good to me.

What was up with Craster? What was the deal there? What does that tell us about the NK?

And he brought up what I've been saying about the titular differences between the books and TV show.

I could see where the WW threat is done away with in EP 5, maybe even end of EP4. And yes, I would find that disappointing.


Mike V. said...

Some are saying it might be done away with by episode 2 or 3 and the rest dealing with the battle for the throne and living up to the title of the show. Could be very different in the books (if he ever finishes)'s a little disappointing but this show has become an entity to itself at this point. We'll just have to hope George will wrap it up eventually.

Thanks for the link...I will check it out later!