Monday, August 21, 2017

Game of Thrones: Season 7 Episode 6 - Beyond the Wall (Death is the Enemy)

What is the airspeed velocity of a dragon? What about a raven? What about a running Gendry?  Questions like these don't play a role in Game of Thrones Season 7 folks!  And maybe we're better off not worrying about it.  BECAUSE WOW!!!  That was one intense episode that hit all of the emotional high and low points in 70 minutes.  I'm definitely still processing everything that went down and not sure I'm emotionally prepared for next week's almost 90 minute episode.  There's certainly plenty to gripe about if you want to talk logistics, but a lot of new information and possibilities were unveiled in this episode and we need to discuss them.  Let's get to it!

Discussion Points


Okay, I've been in Arya's corner on this show for a long time.  I'm starting to have some gripes (I know.  Finally).  I just don't think this is GRRM's character anymore.  Maybe it is.  I'm fully certain the end may justify the means, but I feel like this is just giving Littlefinger the opportunity for some meddling and Arya/Sansa will figure it out before long.  That's my hope at least.

  • The first Arya and Sansa scene was great.  Arya reflecting on the past on her learning to shoot an arrow and Ned was watching with approval (even though it was frowned upon/forbidden for a girl).  It made us think fondly of those early scenes in the pilot episode where Arya shot the bullseye and Bran couldn't.  Then she went right into the scroll that Littlefinger planted for her to find.  She accused Sansa of assisting in the deaths of Ned, Robb and Catelyn.   She blamed Sansa for falling for the Lannister games.  Arya said she would've died before she helped them with anything.  Easy to say now.  They got more into each other's stories of what's been up since they the family was broken up in season one.   Sansa didn't go into details, but obviously we were all thinking of what Ramsey did to her.  Arya brought up how she was training.  Sansa brought up how the Battle of the Bastards was won because of her.  Not much resolved here except some exposition and the rise of tensions.  And well, Sansa is scared Arya will bring this scroll to the wrong people.  Sansa, rightly so, knows Cersei would love if the Starks were fighting amongst themselves.  
  • In a low blow, Arya brings up Lyanna Mormont.  What would she say if she knew Sansa did this?  Lyanna is younger than Sansa was and cool as ice.  (pun intended.  It is the North after all!)   

  • Of course, then Sansa turns to Littlefinger and he makes things worse.  Sansa is scared of losing the North.  She mentions she hasn't heard from Jon in weeks. (This confirms that Jon did not send a raven to Winterfell before he went North)  
  • Littlefinger suggests involving Brienne who is sworn to protect both girls.  If one was planning to harm the other she would be honor bound to intercede, he suggests.   Sansa seems to buy into this.  I'm not sure what Littlefinger's game is here.  But the bigger point, I guess, is that Sansa doesn't play into it.  She sends Brienne away. 
  • Cersei sends a scroll to Winterfell inviting Sansa (? or the King in the North?) to King's Landing.  Sansa says she will not set foot there while Cersei is Queen.  This is great for the fact that Jaime and Brienne will reunite.  This could be good news for Jaime's arc.  But, Brienne is conflicted.  She swore an oath to protect Sansa and Arya.  She wants to at least leave Podrick.  But, Sansa refuses.  She's thinking, "no, we need Tyrion, Bronn and Pod to reunite one last time!"   Sansa feels safe in Winterfell and tells Brienne to get moving.   I'm really not sure what she's thinking with this move.  Maybe she's trying to do the opposite of what Littlefinger suggests and by doing so did exactly what he wanted?  It's like the Inconceivable guy in The Princess Bride.  
  • Now, on the other hand, what is Cersei doing here?  Is this part of her trap for Dany?  It seems like that raven probably went across the 7 kingdoms.  Who will show up?  And what is her line of thinking?  She already told Jaime they have to think like Tywin.  I guess we'll find out next week.  
  • The final scene in this storyline has Sansa sniffing around Arya's room.  She finds the Valayrian steel dagger and a satchel full of faces including Walden Frey's.  I mean, if I was Sansa I'd be totally freaked out.  And then here comes creepy Arya.  
  • Arya brings up her training in Braavos by the faceless men.  She tries to play the game of faces with Sansa.  Ummm, Arya.  She doesn't want to play. What's your deal?  She immediately asks how she feels about Jon being king.  Sansa just keeps asking about the faces.  
  • Arya talked about how they both wanted to be other people when they were younger.  A Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, a Knight.  Now Arya can be whoever she wants.  Then she gets creepy, essentially threatening to kill her sister and taker her place.  Okay.  REALLY???  It's times like these where I almost want to believe the stupid theories that this isn't actually Arya Stark but the Waif from Braavos. 
  • The one sliver of hope came in the fact that she flipped the dagger around and handed it to Sansa at the end.  She put the fear of the 7 gods into her, but maybe she actually doesn't have a desire to kill Sansa.   This storyline has gone South quickly.  I'm sure it won't stay that way and is meant to have as questioning who this person that used to be Arya is.  It makes me think that this might be the end of Littlefinger's reign of secret terror on the show.  He might get caught in the act of meddling by the sisters.  And then they'll form a new bond.  They just have to get over their differences and respect each other's strengths.  Hey, maybe Bran will have some words off "creeperdom" to help that bond.  


  • Tyrion and Dany had a fireside chat about her dragon queen demeanor and her love life.  Let's talk love first.  This episode made it very clear we're moving towards a Jon/Dany quasi-incestual relationship.  Tyrion provided his observations that they're both-like-TOTALLY-into each other.  (like, fer sure)  Well, maybe that wasn't exactly the observation.  It was that she brought up the heroes Drogo, Daario, Jorah and Jon Snow in a breath and they all fell for her.  If we're to believe our fearless showrunners, Dany and Jon don't realize how much they're into each other until the end of this episode, Dany in particular.    Dany did refer to Jon she said he's too little for her.  HUH?  What's with all the short jokes?   Of course, this was meant to be a height joke with Tyrion too.
  • Now that the gossip was out of the way it was back to strategy.  This is where Tyrion tried to confront Dany about what he and Varys discussed.  She has to stop burning people alive.  It was also preparing for what Cersei was going to have in store for them.  If all went well up North, they're were all going to head to King's Landing for a grand meeting.  (I'm assuming this is why Sansa was summoned too.  All of the realm will be present for the viewing of the Dead Man)   
  • Dany and Tyrion expect some kind of trap from Cersei, but Tyrion advised against planning some traps herself.  Just have the dragons and armies with you.  If Cersei tries anything, THEN we'll burn down the city.   This got into the breaking of the wheel.  Dany spoke of Aegon using fear.  But Tyrion spoke to Dany's envisioned better world.  Then he started talking about her LEGACY and the succession after she dies.   Key fact here folks.  We're 7 seasons in and the show finally confirmed what the book confirmed in like the first book.  Dany lost the ability to have children when that black magic lady killed her unborn child.  So whoever succeeds Dany when she dies it will not be her child.  Tyrion spoke of elections such as the Night's Watch or even the Kingsmoot in Pyke as other things.   Dany was furious that they're talking about her successor before she even sat on the throne. 
  • Then it turned into a "complain about Tyrion's tactics" fest again.  She once again feared Tyrion's sympathy for his family and needing to plan for more short term situations than worrying about the long term.  She brought up Dorne and Highgarden blaming them on Tyrion's strategy.  Fair enough.  I do long for the day when Tyrion is allowed to make a good decision again.  I guess this whole trip beyond the wall may end up being something good for the realm, but it wasn't without loss.  
The Fellowship of the Wight

First off let me say.  This whole storyline was executed brilliantly from the small talk between these characters to the action set pieces.  The tension was off the charts and the pacing.  Well, I've already gotten those gripes out of the way up above.  We saw at least one sunset and sunrise.  I've never known how long it takes for a raven to fly from point A to point B, so let's just go with it!  Besides even George R. R. Martin himself has been questioned about this with the books too and this was his response:
"The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.

My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story."
 Okay George.  You got it.  I'm in!

  • Our band of 7 fearless badasses and a few red shirt Night's Watchmen / Northmen (doesn't matter, they all died as predicted) hiked North beyond the wall in search of a wight.  Lots of discussions were had on this magnificent hike to the Mountain that looks like an arrowhead.  
  • First the weather/scenery/scent - Gendry had never seen snow.  Tormund was happy to be back in the North because the South smelled like "pig shit".   Jon said that he was still in the North.  HA!  That joke never gets old.   Tormund referred to Gendry as not smart.  But, being a good fighter is better than being smart up here.  
  • Tormund and Jon had a talk about bending the knee.  Basically, Tormund went against Mance Rayder's belief on not bending the knee.  It got people killed.  A lot of people died for Mance's pride.  
  • The chat between Thoros, Gendry and Beric was fantastic.  Gendy started complaining about the hot red priestess getting her naked and putting leaches on him.  "doesn't sound so bad so far"   He talked about almost being killed.  The Hound shut him up.  Told him to stop "wingeing".   Beric was killed 6 times and isn't complaining.  Thorns offers Gendry a drink and he takes it.  Beef squashed.  Love it! 
  • Then there's Jon and Jorah speaking of Lord Commander Mormont.  Jon spoke of avenging him by bringing the mutineers to justice.  The night's watch betrayed him just like they betrayed Jon.  Jorah's speech about a horrible way to go could've been directed at Jon too (if Jorah knew what happened).  Once again, I wish somehow Sam came up in the conversation as he was there when Jeor Mormont was killed.  And I was happy that Jorah and Jon spoke of Ned wanting to execute Jorah.  Jon brought up how Ned was killed unjustly too for being the most honorable man. (more honorable than you know Jon!)   Loved the agreement that they were glad that Ned didn't catch Jorah.  
  • Then Jon offered his sword to Jorah.  I knew this talk had to happen, but I wanted to slap Jon in face for a minute.  Good thing Jorah knew he didn't deserve the sword, Mormont family sword or not.  Then of course, Jorah wanted the sword to serve him and his children well after him.  Hmmm, no coincidence that Dany tells him later that she can't have children, is it? 
  • The Hound and Tormund have a bit of a hilarious bonding chat.  Tormund gets all philosophical about The Hound having sad eyes.  Loved the ginger hate and kissed by fire talk about the Hound's face.  The whole joke about the male anatomy nicknames and Tormund saying "I like it" (to the nickname) and Hound saying, "I bet you do" was fantastic.   And then the Brienne love started.  And of course, The Hound knows Brienne as she beat him to the edge of death.   Tormund discussed how he wants to make babies with Brienne.  I'll admit, when Tormund was getting dragged into that water, I got worried he wouldn't be able to see her again.  Who would've thought we might have a love triangle between this guy, Brienne and Jaime?  (okay square if you include Cersei)
  • More heavy handed talk about Jon's parents when Beric mentioned he doesn't look much like his father and that maybe he favors his mother.  This brought in the connection that Beric knew Ned Stark and was sent from King's Landing on his order to kill The Mountain (the one day that Ned Stark sat on the Iron Throne and the last command given under Robert Baratheon's reign).    
  • Beric spoke of serving the Lord of Light and knew about Jon's resurrection from Tormund.   At this point he is no longer serving any lords or kings.  He's fighting for life.  "Death is the enemy" ( of episode!  Well, at least on my TiVo)  He said to Jon that they're alive again for a reason and they need to defend those that can't defend themselves.  Jon then quoted the NIght's Watch oath, "I am the shield that guards the realms of men."   Maybe that's enough. 
  • Okay, now the fighting and the payoff to all that male bonding begins.  They found the mountain from The Hound's flame vision.  Round 1 - Reanimated Polar Bear!  Too bad Sawyer wasn't there with his gun.  Beric and Thoros ignited their lightsabers (err Flame swords) and the fighting began.  They took the bear out eventually but not without Thoros being wounded pretty badly.  Beric sealed the wound shut with the flaming sword.   We should note that The Hound froze again when he saw the Bear on fire. 
  • The storm subsided and they kept moving on.  Jorah asked Thoros about his charge at the breach of Pyke (back during Robert's Rebellion).   Thoros was drunk enough to not remember.  They really build this character's backstory and legend up more in this episode (for a reason). 
  • Then they stumbled upon a band of dead men with a white walker.  The 7 plus extras surprised the band and had a grand fight.  But once Jon took out the white walker with long claw, them majority of the wights were destroyed!  NEW INFORMATION FOLKS!  It is brought up later that they suspect whoever the white walkers turn will be destroyed if they're killed.  I guess it's also information that the white walkers might be able to turn dead into wights as well, not just the Night King.  It was easy to figure out from this that if you kill the Night King, it ends EVERYTHING.  
  • There was one dead dude still moving and they all work together to capture it.  Success, but not for long.  Here comes the entire army of the dead and the friggin Night King!  There's obviously only one option.  Get their fastest man to run back to Eastwatch (Gendry), send a raven to Dragonstone to get Dany to fly her dragons up here and burn the dead and get them out of there.   Okay, we're suspending disbelief.  I know this.  But, Dragonstone is right near King's Landing.  It is FAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRR!!!   Okay, that's all I'm saying. I'm on board with this! 
  • So, Gendry runs like the frickin wind and collapses 5 feet from the Eastwatch gate.  They wake him up to find out they need to send the Raven.  
  • Meanwhile, Jon and crew have run onto thin ice (LITERALLY!).  The army of the dead are surrounding our band of misfits.  But, as they traveled in thousands, the ice was cracking.  So they form a circle.  Basically, our crew is stranded on a freezing island of ice.   As I mentioned earlier, we did see at least a day go by as they were stranded.  And poor Thoros froze to death (I'm sure the wounds didn't help either).  I kept screaming into my keyboard (i.e. Typing in caps "BURN HIM!!!! BURN HIM NOW!!!").  Thankfully Jon knew they had to do this.   I swear the more and more that Beric lit up his sword I thought there was a button to ignite it.  Kyber crystals and all.  RIP Thoros of Myr!
  • Beric was ready for him and Jon to go on a suicide mission to take out the Night King.  He said they weren't brought back to life to just freeze to death on that ice island.  He probably had a point.  The Hound's usage of the "c-word" here was as good as it's always been. 
  • Cut away to Dragonstone and Dany determined to go save her men.  As our showrunners pointed out.  Its wasn't just Jon she was going for.  Jorah put his neck on the line multiple times for Dany as well. Tyrion advised against it and suggested they basically leave them for dead.  Once again Dany scolded Tyrion and said she won't listen to him again when the advice is to "do nothing".   We saw Dany, Drogon and the other 2 dragons take flight.  Oh boy.  ALL 3?  YEEEEESSSSS!!!!!   They plugged in the hyperspace coordinates and told Chewie to punch it!  
  • I loved the Hound getting board and starting to throw stones at the dead.  The one hit the dude in the face.  Then he threw a larger rock and it skated on the ice without breaking the ice.  Uh. Oh.  The dead dude got brave and started walking across the ice.  As did a few more, eventually all of them.  Things went south really quickly here.  I could give a play by play, but let's just say it was awesome! 
  • There was dead things that fell in the water coming back up trying to get them.  They eventually were closing in on this big rock they were all standing on.  We once again got "battle vision" Jon with the isolated breathing and his "yep this is the end" face.   And wouldn't you know it?  Here comes Dany with the dragons raining down Fire and Fury on the dead! 
  • The battle is turning!  Dany eventually gets Drogon on the ground and tries to grab Jon's hand. Everyone else gets onto drogon along with the captured wight.  
  • The Night King saw an opportunity, fetched his ice spear and did an amazing javelin toss at one of the non-drogon dragons.  (I'm just going to guess it's Viserion and not Rhaegon, but I have no idea)   What a sight to see one of those dragons bleed and fall from the sky and then drown in the river of ice.  NOOOOOOO!!!!  We knew it had to happen, but like this?  Well, some have speculated, but we'll get to that.   RIP non-Drogon Dragon!  It probably doesn't matter that we didn't form a bond with this non-Drogon.  It's the fact that this was one of Dany's children.  And it was rough guys.  ROUGH!    
  • Jon was FURIOUS and he was looking at the Night King ready to end it all.  But that wasn't happening.  Jon knew what he had to do.  He was falling on the grenade for the team.  He told them to take off and charged towards the army to give them a fighting chance.  Dany did not want to leave Jon, but knew she had to.  And of course, this war is now personal to Dany. You could see it on her face.  
  • Jon was taken down by the wights and trapped under water.  The Night King and his army marched away.  Jon surfaced, all alone.  Some of the dead saw him stumbling and went after him eventually with the rest of the army.  He would've been done for if it wasn't for UNCLE - Cold Hands - BENJEN to the rescue!  Living to fight until he had no fight left to give or whatever he told Bran.  He found his purpose and why he was still alive.  He was able to protect his family north of the wall.  He revealed himself to Jon, gave him his horse and told him to go.  There was no time for anything else.  Benjen sacrificed himself for Jon for the benefit of the living.  RIP UNCLE BENJEN!!  Your screen time was limited, but will never be forgotten! 
  • Cut to Eastwatch.  We saw the wight being loaded on one of Dany's ships.  And yep, The hound is going with it. CLEGANE BOWL talk reignited!!!   
  • Dany is on top of the wall on a tower looking and hoping for Jon.  It is in this moment that she realizes what the man means to her. (again, showrunners talking, but it's all over her face)    Just as Jorah convinces her it's time to go, the horn sounds and here comes Jon!   He is boarded on the ship and stripped of his cold wet clothes.  Dany sees the wounds and knows there is something to the talk of him possibly having died.  
  • Jon woke up and he and Dany finally have their big bonding moment.  She is a wreck. She's thankful he's alive, but mourning the loss of her child.  Jon apologizes, but Dany isn't not sorry. She now knows the threat is real and knew you had to see it to believe it.  She pledges to destroy the Night King and his army and they're going to do it together.  She swears it.  Jon calls her Dany.  It was brought to my attention that TV Show watchers don't really know Khaleesi/Daenerys as Dany.  But, in the books GRRM names all her chapters as DANY.  So, it was funny that Jon called her this in this episode and she actually comments that no one calls her that.  Except maybe her brother Viserys.  So, she doesn't really like it.  So Jon revises it to "his queen".  Woa...   He said his people will come to see her for what she is.  Dany and Jon gripped the other's hand very tightly.  She sees those longing eyes in Jon and maybe gets a little scared and loosens her grip.  She told Jon to get some rest.  But yeah, there's definitely something there.  And oh by the way....that's your nephew! 
  • Cut back to the Night King and his crew.  The wights are pulling on some large chains.  And yes, we know what's happening.  They pulled the dragon out of the water.  The Night King walked up to it, put his hand on it.  And we all just waited to see the blue eye.  And there we have it.  The Night King has his own weapon of mass destruction.  NOOOOOOO!!!!!
Okay, so we've wondered how the dead would get past the wall.  We've wondered how the wall may come down.  Now we have bigger problems.  The Night King can just fly over the wall and reanimate the dead in the south!  Ugh.  Or maybe the dragon will destroy the wall, or melt the wall (unless it spits ice as one of our frequent commenters suggested).   It was theorized that the Night King may end up with a dragon of his own.  For all I know, that may have been a spoiler and not a theory!  But regardless, just like Cersei surprised us with some of her moves, we now see the Night King has a more even match for mankind.  But, we also know that killing the Night King is the key to winning the war.  I'm convinced even more now that Arya may be the one to do it with that dagger. 

Time will tell folks!  This episode was fantastic.  It's a fantasy show, so we can suspend our disbelief in some stuff.  I know that won't satisfy everyone, but you have to admit this was quite the spectacle! We have all week to discuss what we thought and what we think is coming.  So let's move onto that phase of the discussion.  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you next week! 


Mike V. said...

Confirmed it was viserion. Good guess!:)

Mike V. said...

Ok going to bed but 2 more points

1. Alan Taylor returned to direct this. He was the key director in season 1 and went on to bigger things. Good to have him back.

2. My TiVo had wrong episode name. So I'll have to edit the post when I'm back on a computer. Episode name is "Beyond the Wall". I thought so and originally had it as such until I started watching the ep!

Anonymous said...

Death is the Enemy, that's the title on HBO info from the broadcast. I think they're screwing with the titles for lots of reasons.

Thanks again.

I like the North stuff as you know. And I have been wondering about the NK and IF he can be killed? Very interesting on killing the WW then you take out his wights.

Well, there you have it--bend the knee. I really didn't like that at all. I think it's a mistake re the people of the North. BUT, he gets a free folk pass? TV convenience!

BTW, NO Raven, as I thought from Jon to Winterfell. Sansa saying she hasn't heard from him! He's a horrible leader and loosing his position of strength. I look at Jon as a fantastic sergeant but an utter failure as a general.

Well, loosing a dragon has been high on my list for several eps now. I thought it might be at KL but as the show moved North thought about the WW army getting a dragon. We saw they have giants.

Dany not having kids and the succession stuff really is foreshadowing! Now that we know it's going to be Jon Targaryan I could see a marriage between JOn and Sansa to unite the realm. More on this later.


Anonymous said...

Again, I loved the WW action. Jon and the NK starring at each other was great. It made me reconsider Arya killing the NK. Maybe Jon will have to be the one. And it reinforced to me that the NK knows who Jon is.

A key item for me was when the NK missed with his second spear. So, he makes mistakes.

1. The Sansa/Arya stuff is silly at best. A lot of Winterfell plot this year has been bad. And I think you're onto something with Brienne gone. It results in less Stark protection which could cause LF to be too aggressive.
2. BTW, Brienne going to KL vs a Stark or Hand or some real person of power is silly. Makes no sense except to get her out of Winterfell to open up something there and perhaps get her to Jaime. You don't send a random warrior to those things.
3. I predict Sansa and Arya will work things out very well, maybe involving Bran.

KL--These invites are about the armistice Tyrion requested. It was mentioned by Cersei and Jamie. And since the armistice is predicated upon the war in the North by extension it will involve the wight exhibit. Again, why would Sansa not go to an armistice negotiation. OH, wait for it, there's an even better question!! Why isn't the looser leader of the North communicating with his troops at Winterfell about an armistice? He should be the one going. Ironically I think he will be going since Dany is going. If only he'd communicate as a leader does. With Jon bending the knee and essentially abdicating his throne(by not commununicating/leading the North) I think Sansa has a right to be upset with him.

Sansa/Jon--So much groundwork has been laid for this relationship. Part of this hit me as a result of reading about the Starks and Children of the Forest. BTW, sad the Stark's have nobody to carry their name forward.
1. Jon is not her brother. This will have to be confirmed to the other characters and Jon himself.
2. She's a MUCH better strategic thinker and politician than he. Again, Jon the sergeant. So, their pairing would be strong. Especially with him being a Targaryan.
3. Sansa can't be happy with Jon now and so healing a rift would add some GoT drama.
4. A marriage to unite houses vs love was what Sansa's mother did.
5. Dany can't have kids and there needs to be a succession. WE posted about this last week wondering if Dany could have kids, since it is a key point. I could see this be at her request in a sacrificial way. IE, her giving him up despite her great love of him for the sake of the kingdom. And I could see Jon not wanting to do it but will do so after being told to do so by Dany.
6.Since it would be at her request it would be a kind of return on the bend the knee stuff.
7. If Jon marries Dany then NO major houses will continue, none I can think of. Jon is the only male with a name--assuming it's disclosed. Jorah could have a house continue but that seems very unlikely and it isn't a major house. The Arryn boy could continue, wow what a scary thought about a way to build the Westerosi future. So, the only way I can see a future for the Targaryans is with a Jon/Sansa marriage IF, he's heritage is found out.


Mike V. said...

Interesting on the title. Well, I just updated to have them both! Lol
NK being killed – I’m telling you…there’s a reason Littlefinger’s dagger was in that book in Oldtowne. I think we’ll find out it’s a special blade. Granted…Jon will still have to fight him directly, but Arya may be the one to kill him. I won’t be disappointed if it doesn’t happen that way, but it just feels like the way it’s going.

LOL on the free folk pass. Oh it’s definitely a mistake with the knowledge he has right now. With Sansa and Arya already squabbling and then they’ll find out Jon bent the knee to the Dragon queen? Bad news. But maybe this is all leading to the reveal to Jon of who he truly is. Surely, he’ll find out this season right? We have 90 minutes next week! Lol btw…next week looks incredible too. Not sure how you can have all those soldiers in King’s landing and not have a fight! Lol CLEGANE BOWL!!!!!!! Raven to winterfell. I acknowledged you were correct. I’m sure Jon didn’t want to cause worry, but yes that’s a bad move. In Jon’s defense, he doesn’t want to rule…he wants to fight. Always has wanted to. But, that doesn’t mean he gets excused from his decisions.

We saw they either have or “WILL HAVE’ giants. It’s a one eyed giant…and wun wun died by getting stabbed in the eye in Winterfell. Bran may have seen the future. We also saw they reanimated horses and bears…so we knew by the time that dragon was drug out of the water what he was doing. Some on reddit speculated that this might not be a WIGHT but a “white walker dragon” because the NK touched him and the eye was bright blue. They said this because it will probably have ice breath powers just like the WW bring the storm . I don’t think it matters what you call it. It’s on their side.

Dany pregnancy stuff – others speculated that something “magical” will happen and Jon and Dany WILL have an heir. But yeah that’s an interesting twist to consider Jon and Sansa…believe it or not…because they grew up brother and sister that seems a lot more disgusting that Jon and Dany. I don’t know if the audience would go for it. Lol

Going to your next post now.

Mike V. said...

2nd spear – Well….he makes mistakes and/or the Dragons (Drogon) learned that the weapon is lethal and knew he had to dodge it. Jon/NK staring…yeah they’re definitely going to fight. I still don’t know if Jon will be the one to kill him though.

Off to the numbered points.
1. I agree on Sansa/Arya….I was with it until this episode. This took it too far. I mean COME ON ARYA! That was hard to watch. I’m sure it’s going somewhere. Arya may even be running a long con. But, just tough to watch. Maybe I’m onto something with Brienne lol
2. Agreed on Brienne going to KL….but Jon will be there so there’s that. And yes…it’s clearly to get her to Jaime. She will play a role in getting Jaime out of his mess. I’d assume Sansa sent Brienne because she trusts her. But there could be alternative thinking to get her out because LF suggested using her. Which again..could be reverse psychology on LF’s part. INCONCEIVABLE!!
3. I predict the same, with the same Bran caveat. Lol

KL – Yeah I know what they’re for. I just wonder if Cersei has a plan with it too. JON IS GOING TO THE ARMISTACE!!! But yes…the communication to Winterfell is the problem. I still don’t think Sansa would’ve gone. The whole “north leaders going south” thing they ingrained into our heads earlier this season is something that would not have gone well with the rest of the North. If jon AND Sansa went south? That would be bad. (Clearly, I’m the only one that watched the previews for next week. Lol I know I know…some consider them spoilers, but it’s so hard not to watch!) Even if Jon is bending the knee, he’s still warden of the North. I really think it’s going to cause more turmoil in the North when they do find out…and LF will be twirling that mustache. (if arya doesn’t kill him)

Sansa/Jon –
I can’t even argue these points one by one. I will eat crow and acknowledge you as the master of all theories if this comes true, but I just can’t get on board with this one. Lol Point 4 I’ll give you. But Dany is all about breaking the wheel…a point Tyrion kept making this episode. He was even talking about succession in forms other than by houses/families. He clearly was bringing up democracy and elections. What’s the point of all this if what resumes in Westeros is more of the same of what came before? NO MAJOR HOUSES WILL CONTINUE. Isn’t that the point??

Anonymous said...

Great point about Wun wun being near Winterfell. So, there you have it,looks like Winterfell will fall. Again, I think this will be like the Long Night(the many years of winter long ago) and so the WW will go far South and grow in number.

I like the point about Viserion being a WW vs wight!! I think it could give him the power to raise many very quickly.

ARe you tired of being told by various "outsiders,outside of the characters in the show using their talent" that a relationship is developing between Jon and Dany? Maybe they're just responding to questions. But, I couldn't feel any romance between them, especially by Kit. I get it was supposed to be there and so I acknowledge it.

I wonder how far the Unsullied have come after 2 episodes where many have gone very far? Kind of a rhetorical question but I do wonder where they are heading. Should be heading to Dragonstone, but likely instead to KL.

You know, the more I think about the battle of the bastards it was Littlefinger who had the right strategy.


Mike V. said...

Oh yeah…I would think the long night has to be bad or what’s the point of the story again? Lol But yeah that’s a good point about the dragon….if Night King flies South ahead of the army…he could create his army all over westeros without having them just have to walk there. Lol Makes you think….if Jon and Dany never intervened, would they have ever gotten past the Wall at all? (If that is indeed how the wall comes down or how Night King spreads his army)

Speaking of Viserion…it was in the article I posted but it is funny that viserion is the one to turn…just like Dany’s brother Viserys being a punk a-hole. Lol

Even without the showrunners telling me what is supposed to be there….I thought it was pretty clear what they were hinting at this season. I do feel the romance brewing. Maybe it’s a little forced….but that’s just them dealing with precious show time in an abbreviated season. Granted, the season may be short but I can’t imagine them being able to pull of what they’ve done this season on a 10 episode budget. (effects-wise) The dragons have been front and center in a few episodes. And quite detailed. Not to mention all other effects.

RE: Unsullied. I’m not going to speculate because I already watched the preview for next week. Lol I can tell you where the Dothraki are too. Granted, Tyrion even mentioned where they need to be in his conversations with Dany.

BotB – yeah Littlefinger had the strategy and was all part of his continued came of chaos. And now he’s using Sansa even more since she’s risen to power.

MJ said...

We all knew a dragon or two would die - but daammn! Didn't see it coming that way. SO now we have an undead dragon! We have bee hypothasizing all morning at work - will it still breath fire ? Will it breath ice ? Will it still recognize Dany (I don't think so), Will the other two dragons be willing to kill their former brother ?

Arya is not that experienced with Baelish but Sansa certain is and should know better. But these two just suck at communicating. LOL Funny - yes I thought of Ramsey but also of Sansa almost being forced to marry Joffrey and then forced to marry Tyrion and then accused of killing Joffrey. You'd think she's day all that to Arya - to highlight how she was not 'helping' them ? I've not heard that about Arya not being Arya ! LOL Too funny. But yeah - the two of them were just horrible with eachother. And who would't be creeped out to find faces in your sisters bag ?

As for Cercei ? Hmm - is she trying to build a fence with the Starks against Dany ? Can't imagine she thinks that will work - but guess she has to try. I did not however think Cersei was summoning her to see the dead man. Does Cercei even know they are trying to capture one ?

I still say ick with Jon and Dany. But Jorah and Dany will never work - he sees her as his Queen - I don't think Jorah can switch to a more personal relationship where they would be equals. And this was the first I heard of Dany not being able to have kids. How does she know this I wonder ?

Tyrion can't be blamed for every failure ! His plan to sneak into Casterly Rock was a good one - but he was out strategized.

Some foreshadowing with Tormund telling Jon to not hold out on bendng the knee ?

LOL on Sawyer and the polar bear. So - like vampires you have to kill the master ? So really they are saying is that you only have to kill all the white walkers and not worry so much about the armies ? Hmmm. Not sure I caught that the WW can turn the dead to Wights though. LOL on hyperspace drive - but it is funny how Dany knew where to go since she's not from Westeros.

Could not Benjen and Jon have taken that horse ? Guess not.

Ok - off to read all you comments ;-D Great recap as always Mike !

Mike V. said...

Thanks, MJ!

This is always the Walking Dead dilemma that I thought we’d see more of. Coming up against the dead that you know. They do it every once in awhile. But yeah…surely, that’ll happen on Thrones especially next season. I think this thing is definitely going to breath ICE. Breathing fire would probably kill itself or parts of his army. Lol

True on Arya/Sansa and the communication. Well, Bran better wake them up. Oh and tell them who Jon is while you’re at it! Someone needs to know! Lol Yeah….I thought of Sansa’s KL dilemmas too. She’s had it rough! Oh yeah the Arya being the Waif theory is so ridiculous. It was really to make up for a bad storyline of Arya getting stabbed, falling in the water and miraculously healing. Lol

I’m sure Richard’s right that it’s just setting up the armistice for Dany and Jon to communicate on the army of the dead. The problem is Cersei made it clear that this is all part of her new plan. So, I don’t know if Dany requested an audience with the entire kingdom. But you’d think the more people the better to show them what they’re up against. I’m sure Cersei has something planned though. If Dany and Jon present a dead person, will Cersei present the Mountain? And then….dare I say it??? CLEGANE BOWL happens???

Dany and kids – It was a book fact that was never brought up in the show. I think they’re just dropping this in now to be consistent. But you’re right, it was not made clear. I forget how she knew in the books. I think mirri mazz whatserface told her. (the witch/sorceress that used black magic to essentially kill Drogo and kill her unborn child)

Tyrion – You’re right…he can’t be blamed for everything. Dany clearly still wants him on his side, but when she’s angry she will bring up his faults. Lol

Foreshadowing for Tormund telling Jon? Or really Tormund telling Jon it’s okay to do it?

I didn’t know the WW could turn dead to wights either. I thought it was just the NK. But that’s just it…if you kill the NK it’s all over. (supposedly) Dany knowing where to go. I thought of that as well. Well she does have the giant map at Dragonstone…and they focused on it in the first shot of the episode. Lol Basically you just have to go north up the East Coast…how she knew where to go north of the wall? I dunno.

I saw lots of jokes about Benjen not getting on the horse too….. “But Uncle…there’s room on here for y….” “THERE’S NO TIME!!!!” lol

Mike V. said...

Cast/Crew on Sansa/Arya relationship -

Anonymous said...

Sansa/Jon--yes, breaking the wheel having something like elections would certainly kill the theory. It will be interesting to see if the Dream of Spring moves that far away from what they have today.

When I was younger in school I was taught about the magna carta. That it established the regular people getting some rights. BUT, subsequently when studying that time period I found that there were a few of those documents since they were violated by the monarchs. So, my thought is given GRRMs knowledge of that same history, I just can't see Westeros going in a few eps from monarchs to elections. At least not without huge battles. We'll see. Given time travel these days, who knows.

BTW,I can't wait to see how far along Cersei is next ep. If she's not preggers and Brienne is their with Jaime and Jaime sees the wight---I'm thinking Jaime is on a road out of KL. Plus, he may not like the mercenaries Cersei is getting. Think about this for a second. You're in charge of the army and yet you're not getting the mercenaries, hmm, how does the chain of command work there. Between a likely mercenary clash and existing Euron clash, Jaime may not feel good about his station. Particulary with Bronn leaving.

Cersei has said that this armistice can be used to her advantage. Again, she plans on getting lots of mercenaries during the armistice.

Jon is not going to the armistice as the King of the North(the girl (is it Lyanna) will be heartbroken about this) and nobody from the North knows he's going--how can these things possibly be a problem, LOL.

Jon is such an idiot, I keep hearing Ygritte's voice--"you know nothing,Jon Snow". LOL.

Yea, Benjen not on the horse reminded me of the WF nonsense--too much to ask for me. So, will Benjen be a full fledged wight now?


MJ said...

Ewwww - Jon and Sansa is even worse then Jon and Dany.

Lannisters can still continue. Jamie could marry someone and have kids after he kills Cercei. Tyrion could marry and have a child.

Yeah - the blade seems more important then just being valerian. Something about it to come. Bran probably saw the blade in the future be used for something and gave it to Arya cause she will need it - or he knows she gives it to someone else.

Still reading comments.

Anonymous said...

Good point on Lannisters. I guess they could get their house back.

Mike V. said...

Sansa/Jon - I feel the same way MJ! It would be interesting in book vs. show. I know their plan was to essentially land in the same place but get there in a different way. GRRM likes to reflect real history. So moving away from monarchy and dynasties in favor of a republic seems to make sense.

I too learned (and have since forgotten) all about the magna carta. lol Let's keep in mind how fast this show has been moving this season. I don't think they're too worried about moving to democracy in one fell swoop. lol At least they introduced it THIS season before it may become a bigger topic next season. (ahh I see you said the same thing with the time travel) With the might be more involved and GRRM may decide he needs to write another series about WESTEROS: Post Ice and Fire. lol

Cersei pregnancy - yeah I'm guessing she won't be showing at all, but it's hard to tell how much time has passed since the announcement. I know it's a different company and he's supposed to stay in Meereen, but it would be hilarious if Daario was somehow one of the mercenaries and working to get a leg up for Dany on the other side. But wouldn't surprise me if Jaime gets out of KL. He might not need to though. If the Night King flies to Westeros...the threat of winter and the long night might hit the entire continent pretty quickly. Jaime may be needed there.

OOH...what if the dragons (all 3) faced off above the Red Keep which leads to the scorched ceiling in the throne room??

If Jon isn't going as King, he'll be there as warden...he still represents the North....and for him he's representing LIFE itself. lol But yes...I'm sure communication will head to winter fell soon causing more drama.

I'm not following you down the Jon Snow "idiot" path! He doesn't want to play the game of thrones....he just wants to keep people alive. He basically said as much when talking to Beric. He swore by the Night's Watch motto once again. If he thinks it's best for his people to have Dany rule, then that's what he's going to do. Plus...he's in wuuuuuuuvvvvv awwwww so cute. lol

I think we saw the end of Benjen. But yes...technically he's turned. I guess since he was something in between...maybe he'll be something else?? i dunno. Like I said before in a response to MJ....these are the things that could be emotional gut punches later that Walking Dead, in my opinion, doesn't take enough advantage of. If Jon came face to face with Benjen as a would be a distraction and he might hesitate to do what must be done. So we'll see if they go down that path.

True on the Lannisters, MJ. I still think the great houses are something that the show/books might be looking to put behind them.

Exactly with the blade. When Bran just handed it to her, I figured it was because he saw that Arya needed it in a vision.

Mike V. said...

Director Alan Taylor on staging the battle

Anonymous said...

We have the total eclipse today. We're on the centerline. Wow, the interstates are busy.

He thinks Dany's dragons and men are what is important. Not her ruling.

If the WW army doesn't get past the wall next ep then I'm going to be disappointed. Gendry covered twice that distance in half an ep.

I think Sam could easily be at Winterfell next ep too.

Who would lead the army of the Vale if Petyr is killed?


Mike V. said...

Nice...did you see the total eclipse? we had a partial here with cloud cover lol. looked great on TV though!

I disagree...yes the dragons are important, but Dany put her life on the line to help him. That gave him faith in her cause.

LOL...yeah I think they're coming now (WW)....but I think having a dragon will be a key maybe NK was waiting for his moment.

Took Sam 2 seasons to get from the wall to Oldtowne...will get to Winterfell in 2 eps. lol But yeah...possibly..unless for some reason he goes to KL. doubt it.

Well isn't ROBIN really in charge of the vale?

Mike V. said...

Really good points on this post on reddit. They think Arya is clearly lying. She was playing the game of faces. And probably lying the whole time. Almost as if someone was listening. The picture in the post is funny because it's Arya "serving" a Lannister.

Here's some of the comments:

"Everything Ayra said sounded completely unhinged and then she handed over the dagger without a word. It's almost like she assumes someone else is listening, and wants to tell them a story."

"It's almost like she was playing a game where the goal is to lie to the other person."

"Yup. "I want to know what it feels like to wear those pretty dresses, to be the lady of winterfell" she really doesn't, she never wanted to wear pretty dresses or be a lady, she is obviously playing a game here. Not sure why no one is realizing this."

OF COURSE...then there is the alternative opinion lol:

"I think we're giving the show producers too much credit. They could just be writing/producing a crappy story."

Anonymous said...

LOL on Dany's cause. Wow, she's got you reeled in. Of course I'm not saying they can't turn a torcher of men into a nice cuddly person, but wow. She's done 1 good thing in Westeros so far. And a whole lot of bad, like burning food, etc. Let's see how things play out. As we discussed last week GRRM shows the good and bad of characters.

For me, she's a long ways away from having a good cause. AS she said, "she's born to rule". Don't forget all of her power hungry statements and actions. There were eps after eps of those.


Mike V. said...

She doesn't have me reeled in. I'm talking from a story perspective and what Jon is thinking. She has some questionable tactics but it's a means to an end. "Break the wheel" is her campaign slogan which is a concept of change from the norm. Something to believe in. and she believed enough in Jon to come to his aid. That's enough for him. If you want to start talking realistic none of them are good or perfect rulers. But then again no one in real life is either. Lol

I'm not talking in support of dany. I'm talking about where the story is headed and what Jon is thinking.

Anonymous said...

Good to know, thought you were loosing perspective.

My make up makes it hard to not compare. I kind of think like a database if you will, always comparing data points.


Mike V. said...

Btw apparently the no children thing was in the show in season 1. But there was more to the statement in the books.

Anonymous said...

BTW, with Viserion now a WW dragon, no dragon for Tyrion.

I still think it's a long shot for him to be a T


Mike V. said...

Agreed. I think that settled that at least from a show perspective.

MJ said...

Again - does Sansa or Cersei know that Jon is on his way to KL ? Not sure we know that. he literally arrived at Dragonstone as they were departing afterall. But yeah - they probably just needed a reason to put Brienne in KL for the Tormund/Jamie/Hound reunion.

Battle of the Bastards - what exactly was LF's strategy ? Show up late when half of each side is dead and look like a hero ? I could only discern that his riding to the rescue was a strategy to get to Sansa really. Good point though - if LF dies who gets that army to lead ? I thought robin was dead ? Killed by LF himself.

Romance - to be fair Richard - Mike and you have both talked about romance between Jon and Dany - I am the one who keeps staunchly denying it. But I am done denying after this last ep. Before this one I could say they had growing respect for eachother. The looks were each taking measuremnt of the other. But not now. SIGH.

Preview - not spoiling really - I just like to be surprised with this show.

Arya - yeah - being the waif makes zero sense - cause if she were the waif and not Arya why did she kill Walder Frey after leaving bravos ? So no - she's Arya !

Clegane Bowl - You are too funny with this. LOL

Foreshadowing - tormund telling Jon it's ok to do it.

Good thought on the scorched throne room !

Jon - why is everyone saying Jon is not going as King of the north ? Cause of Dany ? Well he is at least Warden of the North then. Andf agree Mike - Jon has never been interested in power or leading. It's been forced upon him. He just wants everyone to get it - there is a bigger threat and everyone needs to put aside their petty bulls**t . And he will do whatever it takes to get that done. Just as he did in getting the Free folk south of the wall.

Eclipse - unfortuately I only got 80% of the eclipse. But it was an awesome site. I was further south then Mike so I was not cloudy though.

Whew - hard to keep up with you guys ! LOL

Anonymous said...

Clegane bowl--I read one reviewer who said the Hound stayed at Eastwatch. I don't recall for sure if he was on the ship. BTW, why didn't Jon use the ship he came on, ie his own?

Yes, I've thought a Dany/Jon relationship was a real possibility for years, it seemed kind of inevitable at times. BUT, I don't like Kit's acting and so I think he fails at communicating his "growing love" or whatever. I think some connected with the show do too and that's why they keep telling us about this Dany/Jon relationship.

I'm still thinking Jon/Sansa has a good shot too, I'm maybe 1/3rd thinking that may happen.

Keep in mind I think there's a reasonable chance either Dany or Jon will die before the end.

LF's strategy was to out flank the Boltons and even come in from behind with a surprise. That's 3 moves. He waited for the Bolton's to be fully engaged then attacked, that's another. Jon took the bait on the Stark boy and completely destroyed his planned strategy of sucking the Bolton's in. And that cost many men their lives.

I'll have to watch the previews today or tomorrow.


Mike V. said...

Sansa, I don’t think she knows. Cersei? I’m not sure about that either… Wait….is Tormund going to KL too? I thought he was staying at the wall. I think it’s just the Hound, Dany, Davos, Jon and Jorah that left the wall. But I could be wrong. It would be awesome of Tormund went! Lol

BotB – Robin isn’t dead....they ditched him in season 5. Lol Left him with that dude that’s in Winterfell commanding the knights of the Vale now.
Romance – lol Nothing else to say!

Preview – I know..some consider it a spoiler though. I like to be surprised too…but when the show is over I’m so amped up I want more!

Arya – Yep she’s Arya and the writers are trying to throw us off. She was not being herself! Even her crazy assassin self.

Clegane Bowl – THE HYPE IS REAL! Lol (I’m just preaching what the internet wants!)
Foreshadowing – Yep, we’re on same page.

Jon – Agreed…he’ll be representing the North regardless. And with him not being interested in power is exactly the reason he SHOULD be leading. (or that’s usually the dramatic way things going. The “reluctant leader” and all) Agree with everything you said.

Eclipse – lol…nice on the 80%! I’ll admit it…the TOTAL eclipses that I watched on the news were pretty amazing. Would be cool to see Live. Maybe we’ll hit up Cleveland in 2024. Lol

@Richard –

Clegane Bowl - Hound definitely is going to KL. Beric said “we’ll met again Clegane” and Hound said “I f’n hope not” lol don’t know why he didn’t use the ship he came on…but dany did send Jorah with them so maybe that warranted a Targ ship. Not really a good explanation but I’m not going to overthink that small detail! Unless you’re thinking he sent his ship somewhere else?

Dany/Jon – Yeah…I always thought it was possible and I knew people were theorizing about it. I never put much weight in it because I always assumed they were related (which they are)….but the more we discussed the more it makes sense. And we’ll continue to agree to disagree on Kit’s acting. No, he’s not Anthony Hopkins, but he does well in the role he is signed up for.

Jon/Sansa – I just can’t get on board! Lol Fair point on Dany or Jon dying. I think that’s a safe bet that one or both may not make it until the end. Tyrion’s discussion of legacy may have also been foreshadowing of that. They may die breaking the wheel…who is left to rule the kingdom? …you never know…maybe it’ll be Sansa? Or maybe the 7 kingdoms will break up and govern themselves. I’d imagine fighting the long night across all 7 kingdoms will unite them though…

LF’s strategy also was to make sure it was known that HE saved the day (and Sansa)….that Jon would’ve lost if it weren’t for them.

Mike V. said...

More speculation on Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger stuff on Reddit. I'm sure there will be a twist in this story. But I don't know how much Arya/Sansa are in cahoots with each other. But they did bring up the same thing I did with Sansa sending Brienne away.

Foreshadowing: We have quotes from as far back as S6 suggesting that Arya will protect Sansa.
•“No one can protect me." – Sansa, S6E9
•“You need better guards.” – Arya to Sansa, S7E4

•Protecting each other: After LF suggests Sansa use Brienne to intervene in the Arya-Sansa catfight, Sansa sends Brienne away and says that she has trusted guards here already. Sansa is not afraid of Arya, nor Littlefinger, and she doesn’t want the honorable Brienne involved in their lying and schemes.

•Arya is trained in stealth: Arya was trained by assassins. She is far too stealthy to let LF know that he is being followed, unless she did this deliberately. In S7E4, Arya walks onto Brienne and Pod sparring just as Brienne says, “Don’t go where your enemy leads you.” In S7E6, the directors deliberately show us Sansa opening and closing a very squeaky door as she goes into Arya’s bedchamber. Yet Arya is able to sneak up on Sansa without a single noise.

•Staged fights: When Arya confronts Sansa about the Northern lords talking badly about Jon in S7E5, the door is wide open. Similarly, when Arya confronts Sansa about the letter from S1, Arya projects her voice just as she is reading the letter. It’s almost as if they want someone to hear their fights.

•The Game of Faces: In what seems to be the most psychotic Arya scene, Arya basically threatens to cut off Sansa’s face and pretend to be her. The entire scene is Arya playing the Game of Faces, presenting lies as truths. She even says that they are playing! She plays this game when she tells Sansa that she remembers Sansa standing on Ned’s execution stage – Sansa fought and screamed, and Arya knows this. Arya played the game when she told Sansa she would never serve the Lannisters – Arya served as Tywin’s cupbearer. Arya tells Sansa she wonders what it would be like to wear her face and her pretty dresses, to be Lady of Winterfell – we are beaten over the head since S1 that Arya HAS NEVER WANTED ANY OF THESE THINGS. Arya is playing the game of faces, and when she realizes Sansa hasn’t caught on to her lies, she hands her Littlefinger’s dagger, symbolically saying, “I trust you and want you to protect yourself from LF’s lies.”

•The third eye: Do we really think there hasn't been a single off-script scene where Bran tells them, "Hey, uh, LF kinda started the war of the Five Kings by lying about this dagger, betrayed our father, and is essentially the reason our whole family is dead." We hear crows when LF comes out of the crypts with Jon, when Arya enters LF's bedchambers, and again when LF and Sansa are talking in S7E6. These noises are very deliberate.


Mike V. said...

First response to this post is pretty good too.


Two scenes from the show also undermine idea of Arya being played:

Neds beheading, and reactions of various people. LF is the only unsurprised up there, but more importantly, Sansa is having a fit and being physically restrained by kingsguard. Next shot actually shows Arya watched until that moment.

When escorted by the nightwatchman in s02ep03, Arya asks Yoren how he sleeps having seen terrible things. He says she didn't see the beheading, he made sure of it. She responds:

When I close my eyes I see them up there. All of them. Standing there. Joffrey. The Queen. And... and my sister.

Current season had bad cases of plot armour, stupid balls etc - but for Arya to be played and not the schemer in this arc would demand proper retconning of her vivid memories of her fathers beheading.

As for how good Arya memories is - I refer y'all to s4ep1, the Chicken Massacre, when she repeats word for word what the Lannister/Bolton/Clegane footsoldier said to the boy with broken leg before killing him.


Mike V. said...

Finale title revealed and run time (80 minutes)

I like it and makes me think we'll be getting a little history lesson. And HOPEFULLY...somehow Jon will get the news he needs to learn!

Anonymous said...

Arya--WOW, I can't believe how many people are invested in that character, lol. Well, my daughter and I were shocked that she got played by LF. I don't think LF has much of a future.

There has to be someone bite the dust in this ep. And LF is tops on my list.

Great info on that link re the preview/title

Some eps SPOILERY things below from preview

Dany is absent from the pit, but I don't think she's pulling a Sansa. I think she's riding! And will do a flyover at minimum to show those in KL what they are facing! It also appears she has all her forces there, which would make those in KL a little worried. BUT, BUT maybe Cersei has something up her sleeves too.

I think it's a little early for Jon's father to be disclosed, but who knows given how fast things are moving. And I think how Dany will take it might depend on where they are in their relationship.

LOL, so we see where the Unsullied are.

The other big absences are Euron and Yara. I thought those were Greyjoy sails.


Mike V. said...

Arya - that's just it...she probably is NOT played. The theory is that she's still playing him. If she isn't...then there definitely is some flaws in the writing especially this late in the game.

I agree on LF. I'm pretty sure his games are over.

Yeah...I read the Dany thing too. I think she'll be arriving on drogon too. You could be right that it's too early to disclose the Jon's father stuff. But they've been hitting us over the head with it all season. You'd think they'd want to pay that off in the same season.

Yes...we see where the unsullied are. lol

I have to assume Euron will be there as well....especially since Theon is at the dragon pit.

Anonymous said...

Interesting thoughts on Dany having kids. Paid for by Viserion. Or she could give her own in child birth.


Mike V. said...

I shared a TV guide article that mentioned something similar. If I had to guess inverse said it better. Lol

MJ said...

Wait - Robin isn't dead ? I thought LF killed him. Are we talking about the same person ? The one who was still being breastfed by mommy? Catelyn's nephew ?

Tormund - oh ! I'm disappointed. Thought he was going too. SIGH

Official run time of finale is 79 min and 43 sec. Probably that includes opening and closing credits. So really maybe 75 min of show. You see the title ? ;-D

Mike V. said...

Robin Arryn of the Vale - Cat's netphew, Lysa's son...breasteeding and all. Yep, he's still alive. I double checked the wiki. He was in last season...and LF used Robin as a way to convince Royce to use the Army of the Vale to help the north.

Yep..saw the title and the run time. I shared a link above with a little speculation. lol at the very least we should get more backstory on Jon's lineage if Jon doesn't find anything out himself. lol You're probably right about the opening and closing credits :)

Mike V. said...

Pretty good observation on Reddit regarding Jon and Cersei:

"We know that Jon and Cersei will meet at the Dragonpit. For Cersei Jon not only is Ned's 'bastard' who became KitN but much more and she doesn't even know.

When Tywin Lannister was Hand of the King to Mad King Aerys, he wanted his daughter Cersei to be married to Prince Rhaegar but Aerys refused and married Rhaegar to Ellia Martell.

Cersei always fancied and wanted to marry Prince Rhaegar. She even asked Maggy the witch "will I marry the Prince?". Maggy the witch replied "No,You will marry the King".

Now Cersei did marry the King and that King was Robert Baratheon. We know that he was to marry Lyanna Stark.He loved her even after her death and never loved Cersei.

So Jon is basically the son of the Prince she always wanted to marry and the woman her husband loved till his death.

Anonymous said...

WEEELLLL, you could say Cersei could have been Jon's Mom.....with Prince Rhaegar, if things had gone that way.

Guys, seriously, do you think Robin is going to lead the Nights of the Vale???? It would be a barf alert. It could be an issue. Of course with the way the show is going I could see Sansa becoming their leader somehow.

I"m hoping, pulling for, keeping fingers crossed, anything you can imagine that---Yara is done away with this next ep as well as LF.

BTW, re the cave drawings. There was none of a dragon and rider. HMM.


Mike V. said...

That's basically the point. lol Cersei was promised to Rhaegar, Robert was promised to Llyana. Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love. (Or Rhaegar was just so obsessed with prophecy that he had to have the 3rd child and divorced Elaria and married Lyanna.

No I don't think Robin will actually lead the vale, but he's still technically Lord of the Vale. But Royce controls the army/knights. So I would think he'd be the defacto lead from a TV perspective if LF is killed. They'd be at Sansa's disposal though. I don't think they give 2 SH!TS about LF. lol

Either Yara is going to be killed or Theon is going to do something heroic to save her. Depends on how important they all are to next season.

Well...we're just assuming now the cave drawings are prophetic. It may have just been there as a way for Jon to convince Dany that there is a threat. Even the prophecies of TPTWP and AA there is no Dragon specifically mentioned.

Anonymous said...

Exactly, I don't recall any prophecies of dragons coming back. I think it's important and yet I've never seen it discussed anywhere.


MJ said...

Robyn - LOL - I did the same. Forgor LF sent him to 'meet' his kingdoms LOL

Whaat ? I followed your whole thing Mike about jon being the kid of the man Cersei loved and the woman Robert loved. And that is pretty odd. But - Richard - you lost me. Cersei could never have been Jon's mom. Ever. Cause a Rhaegar and Cersei child would not be Jon - biologically impossible.

Robyn - no I hope they don't even bring him back.

Mike V. said...

Dragon prophecies - well...the dragons MAY be part of the salt/smoke part of the prophecy. Or the prophecies are a load of BS. Have you heard the theory that Bran might be the Night King? There's an in-depth theory that is compelling. I don't think I buy it but it certainly is interesting. But something like the 3 eyed raven knowing all could play into the fact that prophecies exist in the first place. Here's the link to the guy's theory.


Just for the record, I pasted in someone's thoughts from Reddit. They weren't mine! Though I have thought about the whole mess of marriage arrangements with Cersei/Robert/Lyanna and Rhaegar. In a lot of ways Cersei's trajectory mirrors Sansa's which was brought up early on in season 1. they both were in love with the prince who would be king and it didn't turn out as expected.

Robyn, wouldn't surprise me if they didn't! lol

Anonymous said...

Cersei and Rhaegar's child would be a Targaryan and so replaced Jon. Actually they would have replaced all of Rhaegar's children. The point is that Cersei was so close/should be the mother of Rhaegar's children, not necessarily the actual Jon. How I take this is how much one decision can change so much. Like the Butterfly Effect.

I've posted for some time now that Bran and the NK are somehow connected. Otherwise how is it that the NK can tell what Bran is up to. But, wow that's very interesting that they could be the same. I've also been trying to figure out if this is the original NK. This theory gives you some time loops in that regard. I'd have to think about this some more. If it is required to kill the 3 eyed raven, then I pick Arya to do it. It would be more sad than Jon doing it. Something very special has to be done to kill the NK!! I just don't think he's been killed in all these thousands of years.

AND regarding the throne room in Dany's vision it's hard to say if it was wildfire or dragons.

BTW, in addition to Cersei having mercenaries this Sunday do you think she may have wildfire planted? I'm thinking Qyborn's dragon killer 2.0 might be there too. Those elements would make things very interesting.


I didn't see any baby bump on Cersei in the preview!!! Which means the show has gone off the rails with time considerations or she's not pregnant. For some reason I'm thinking she's not preggers which means Jaime has a decision.


Anonymous said...

No salt with Dany and dragons. That's just it, she has 2 big holes with her being AA. No salt and no sword. Which adds to the question about prophecies.

I'm not surprised that the cave drawings have no dragons. I don't think they were drawn to be a prophecy but more to tell a story of what happened. I don't think dragons were used to defeat the WW army before. And that means the left handed swordsmen wasn't Jaime but someone else.

BTW, I sure hope they don't introduce time travel and cause us to wonder about what was or is real or not.


Mike V. said...

One decision being the Mad King hated Tywin so he refused to arrange marriage with Cersei. (Which could tie into the Mad King’s love/lust for Joanna Lannister) GRRM definitely wove a pretty intricate tale.

I know you have posted about the connection and we’ve discussed. I was just sharing the theory. Lol Yeah…it certainly seems like Arya is being set up to kill the NK. The dagger is special, Bran gave Arya the dagger. And it would be even crazier if Bran gave arya the dagger knowing it would be used to kill him one day. But, I don’t really buy the Bran = NK. It’s interesting, but if we believe that the Children of the Forest created the NK (I think we’re meant to by that vision), then it’s not Bran. I think it is the original Night King….the fact that Beric said to Jon (paraphrased) “let’s take out the one that turned them all” seems to indicate he’s the original. But that’s going with the theory that the white walkers were never eradicated 1000s of years before. I think we’re saying the same thing by your last statement in that paragraph. Lol

I agree on the throne room. I suggested the wildfire idea earlier this season as well. Prophecies and Visions are usually meant to suggest one thing but mean something else.

I really don’t think we’ll lose another dragon this season (could totally be wrong about that). But yeah…I guess Cersei could have wildfire planted. The updated scorpion totally could be there. I just wonder how long we’ll be in King’s Landing. Will Jon get back to winterfell this season? (i.e. to talk to Bran?) I guess Dany could give Jon a ride on Drogon. Lol

Cersei baby bump – I didn’t either, but I thought I only recalled seeing a close up shot of Cersei. But yeah…I highly doubt we’re seeing a baby bump.

Yes…and no one completely fits the AA bill. So yes it definitely raises the question about prophecies. You could be right with the cave drawings. But regardless Jaime does have a v-steel sword and will 99% be using it to fight the walkers/wights.

Well the thing about “time travel” in this show is that it works exactly like it does in LOST. “The Ink is Dry” = Whatever happened, happened. So we’ll never be questioning what is real. It would all be “LOOPS”. Of course, we’ve never seen a character physically go back in time. Bran inserted himself into the past but no one could see him. They could hear him.

Mike V. said...

Ok I just thought of an off the wall theory that probably won't be true but kinda comes into play with time travel and this night king theory. It was never confirmed that Joffrey ordered the cut throat hit on bran. Even in the book it was speculation by tyrion not confirmation. Now we know this dagger has significance. That cut throats was making some ominous comments to cat like "you were not supposed to be here". What if bran ordered the hit on himself to try and stop the long night? Or even the previous 3 eyed raven tried to stop it??? It's crazy and some stuff may not add up but I thought that could be an interesting twist. Like I said fun to speculate even if it's ludicrous lol.

Anonymous said...

It's a good time for ludicrous, it's all over the internet, lol! And the idea of Bran taking himself/NK out would be interesting.

Yea, I don't think we'll loose another dragon either. WE had to loose one though.

And I've been thinking lately that it is the original NK. He's just too hard to kill. For a couple of seasons now I have wondered why he and Jon just stare at each other. And that's another reason I have wondered about them being connected. Something is up with that. As I said a few weeks ago, the NK knows about Jon. GREAT point on why Bran gave the dagger to Arya. That would be a dramatic killing, Arya taking out Bran.

For some reason I just think Jaime is soon to leave Cersei and KL. AS I've said, he has no friends, nothing to keep him there except Cersei. And her facade is going to crumble. When he was talking with Tully he made it clear it was only because of Cersei that he was doing what he was doing. I hope Jaime has a significant role to play. He went from the best to being maybe average with a sword so I don't know what he could do. He has become a good battle strategist, taking after his Dad. Probably the best when you think about who's left. Jon is inspirational but not strategic. Sansa talks about needing a strategist but she has never offered specifics, just warnings/criticisms. Tyrion is a failure. Dany has no strategy outside of her dragons and she just lost one. LF is going to be taken out.

Do you think the wall will come down in the finale?


Mike V. said...'s a crazy idea. The cut throat probably said "you weren't supposed to be here" because he set the fire off as a distraction. And it's not meant to be read into more than that. That said, I do feel like they're going to close the loose end on who ordered the hit on Bran. And with Joffrey dead, it doesn't really seem to make sense to call him out for it as a payoff.

Yes...the more I think about's not really meant to be ambiguous on the Night King. We saw the birth of him in Bran's visions with "Leaf" (child of forest). That was the first white walker created. And Beric spoke of how if they take him out they take them all out. We could wonder "why would beric know this?" or we could just accept that it's exposition the writers are trying to give us. Well...Even if Bran isn't NK...Bran giving the dagger to Arya could be significant in that he knows she needs it to kill the NK. So interesting on Jon/NK being connected..... we assume NK has "the sight" just like Bran does. So if he does...he also knows who Jon is. I still think there has to be some confrontation between Jon and NK...but it might be Arya that ultimately takes him out.

I agree with Jaime leaving. Like I've been saying...if NK flies over the wall he can raise the dead all over westeros. And then we have people dealing with Winter and the long night across the 7 kingdoms. Jaime will be needed in KL. Tyrion is a failure "RIGHT NOW". Come can't expect him to continue being a failure? He's had so much success in the past....this is a minor/major setback. lol

The Wall...I'm rethinking it now. Maybe the whole wall won't come down? But maybe that dragon will break a hole in it with Blue Fire/ICE breath...or just smash into it??? could still be based on Bran breaking the magic around the wall. I'll revise my prediction to this: Wall down or not...the white walkers will make it past the wall by the end of Sunday's episode.

Anonymous said...

Bran--for a long time I thought it was LF out to cut Bran's throat. But, I just never saw him in Winterfell at that time. I kind of thought it was Tyrion at one time. Don't those boots look like Yara's boots--hmmm?

Tyrion is an ok hand, but not a military strategist. Those are different. I could see but doubt I will see Jaime directing the military efforts vs the WW. He's certainly the best to do so. If he leaves Cersei, there's nothing left for him at KL.

Yes, there are a lot of graves South of the wall. I wonder if that will become part of the plotline? If it does, then things are indeed dramatically worse. Of course if it was to become part of the plot line, why hasn't Jon and the rest of those who know how wights are made, not been getting people to burn the bodies??? It should be an all out effort especially around Winterfell vs this current nonsense. It's either another huge Jon(and others) screw up or it won't be part of the plotline--at least those are my initial thoughts. It could legitimately be the case though that the NK could raise the dead South of the wall--great point.

I listened to the Taking the Black podcast today. It's reassuring I'm not the only one who has many problems with the last several eps. Including the junk out of Winterfell and big inconsistencies on time. It's one thing to ask us to see these quick trips but to ask us to see these huge long trips go by so quickly and yet simultaneously nothing else happens in comparison is such a big incongruity that it's become childish. BTW, they all think Cersei is indeed pregnant.

I think the WW army will be at least partially past the wall by finales end.


Mike V. said...

Bran - hmmmm Yara? Doubtful...before Theon they never would've moved so far inland. And I wouldn't get the motivation.

Tyrion - He did organize the defense of King's landing. Even more so in the books. I think his problem here is while he is on the outs with this family, he is hesitant to put Jaime in danger and doesn't want to turn on his city either. He's trying to tame the dragon. I'm sure Tyrion will find his place.

I think they're more concerned with the army that's already formed than creating more men for his army. Obviously, they should be concerned with burning bodies and all of that. And maybe they will be now that there is an actual threat of them getting past the wall. (thanks to Jon and crew!)

Oh yeah..that's not a podcast I listen to, but I listen to several popular Thrones podcasts and everyone has issues with the direction the show is going. I get it. I still enjoy the episodes as I'm watching them. But when you start looking into it more you do get the impression that they're rushing to the end. The podcasts I listen to think Cersei is pregnant too. I'm not sure if that's because they're aware of spoilers or not. There are screen stills for the finale out now. There's a full shot of Cersei but she's sitting with her hands over her stomach. lol

WW army...yes..PARTIALLY is what I was thinking as well.

Anonymous said...

Well, they could be Tyrion's boots too? And Yara would be a huge stretch. It's that they come up to about the same areas as those characters and are folded over as they have them. I've not seen LF wear boots like that.

What's the purpose and end result of Cersei being pregnant??


Mike V. said...

I don’t even know what boots you’re talking about. In season 1’s bran assassination attempt? Did we see the boots? If they go by the books it’s definitely no Tyrion because Tyrion is the one who figured out in his KL Cell that it was Joffrey. (He assumes it’s Joffrey)

I think Cersei being pregnant ties to the prophecy. She was told she will only have 3 children and the king will have many children. And they would all die before her. This is a 4th child…so if she’s pregnant the writing is on the wall that she will not come to term. (IF the prophecy is true)….if the prophecy isn’t true…then that might call ALL prophecies into question. And maybe that’s the point??

Anonymous said...

Cersei. So far her prophecies have been true.

I'm not sure what those of supporting the pregnancy are saying. Unless, you're saying the pregnancy is how the story will kill her? So, you're basically saying her pregnancy is her death sentence? Not Jaime, not Arya, not Dany, not Tyrion, not any one of a number of people we've considered but an unborn baby is going to kill Cersei?? And that satisfies the prophecy better than the others prior named?


Mike V. said...

All I know is if the prophecy remains true then she will not have a baby. Either the baby will miscarry, will be stillborn, cersei will die in childbirth, somebody will kill cersei whilst carrying child. Lots of different ways to go.

Or cersei is just playing Jaime. Either seem like a valid scenario.

Anonymous said...

I've been reading more on the theory re Bran being the NK and visa versa. At this point, it seems a major flaw in the theory is that both are still alive and acting independently. Both are moving, thinking, etc independently of each other. And how does the old 3 eyed raven fit into things and the timeline. I am convinced they are connected, but being the same is hard to accept, isn't it.

This gives you a lot of hope for Cleagebowl. Note the Hound pic from much earlier trailer. Rob STrong should win btw, easily.


Mike V. said...

The guy that plays the mountain was interviewed by hibberd saying it has to happen. That suggests it won't be in the finale. (at least the way he discussed it. link below) He also said he would win 100%. Which makes me think the Hound would actually win. lol

Yeah, I agree NK/Bran thing. There's a connection, but they're not the same. Some are suggesting he might be a Stark though. Like an old old old stark.

Anonymous said...

Cersei--well we know that Jaime was dramatically affected when Cersei told him she was pregnant and he would be recognized as the father. So, if she were to loose the baby then he would not be as attached to Cersei. Bottom line, the pregnancy storyline could all be about effecting Jamie staying or going as well as Cersei's mental state. AFter loosing the baby she could go nutso.


Mike V. said...

Cersei/Jaime - Yes, I'm pretty certain it's all involved in the end game for these characters and their relationships as well. The whole thing with her telling Jaime to never betray her again is telling too. She's already going full on Mad Queen. Which makes me wonder what she has in store for Sunday night. lol

Anonymous said...

ONly 1 more ep this season!

I don't see anything happening at the dragon pit that will take out the following characters
1. Dany
2. Jon
3. Jaime
4. Cersei
5. Qyborn
6. Tyrion
7. Missandei
8. Greyworm
9. Jorah

The above I think are good through the first couple of eps next season.

So, basically after thinking about it, I don't think Cersei will try to blow the group up.


Anonymous said...

One thing re Cersei is that the Greyjoy fleet has been MIA the last several eps. Maybe Greyjoy is bringing the sell swords back to KL and the surprise is the additional manpower she has?

YOu know, if Cersei looses her baby and Euron moves in on Cersei that would be it for Jaime. WOW, what a blow to him. Double whammy. That's it, he'll be alone then, at least for a while.


Mike V. said...

Yeah that's true. She didn't just bring up sell swords for nothing. I guess the Greyjoy fleet could be going to get them. granted, wasn't the fleet supposed to be holding the unsullied at bay in Casterly Rock? I'm sure that's some logic they'll just bypass since the Unsullied will be at King's Landing in the finale. lol

Then the Tormund/Jaime/Brienne love triangle will kick into full gear! In fact, I think that'll be the main focus of season 8! LOL

Anonymous said...

I know you're being funny. But a love TRIANGLE, LOL. I could see Tormund obviously but no way with Jaime. For one she's just not at his level, if you know what I mean. Plus they had the bath scene and it thankfully went no where. I don't think he found her attractive. I hope they don't make Brienne out to be gay. What a cliche if they do.

I think at this point Jaime will die a single man. I'm not sure he'll have his radar out looking for a woman at this point. He's loved his sister his entire life so he will likely be devastated.

I don't see too many upcoming romantic pairings really given what's about to happen. Maybe in the Dream of Spring??

I just can't see Jaime not leading troops against the WW. He has to, that's his strong point.


Mike V. said...

I have a feeling Jaime will need to defend kings landing from the ww. This threat is going global! Lol

Brienne and Jaime have a strong bond. Yeah not sure if it's love but there's something there to explore in the final episodes. Also brienne was in love with renly so she's not going to be gay I don't think.

I'm guessing Jaime will be a self sacrificing hero. He already tried to do it with taking out dany. But we won't have to worry about him being alone because he'll pay the ultimate sacrifices. But we'll see!

Anonymous said...

Renly, LOL, yea she was in love with a gay guy, LOL. Good judge of character Brienne. That makes me wonder.

Of course I just remembered that the TV show took some characters and made them gay when they weren't in the books. ICK.

I think Jaime will be both a leader of troops and a self sacrificing hero.

I think we'll know a LOT more after Sunday night.


Mike V. said...

Yeah...true on Brienne's taste. lol From what I read, apparently Renly/Loras was highly suggested in the book if not flat out said. I don't recall picking up on it but apparently it was there.

Yes...Jaime will definitely lead troops....I think he'll be defending king's landing against the dead.

Indeed we will know more after Sunday!