Monday, May 2, 2016

Game of Thrones: Season 6 Episode 2 - Home

Hello everyone and welcome back to our Game of Thrones discussion.  This is the episode that we've been waiting for folks.  Payoff after months and years of speculation.  We'll get into the details below, but let's just say we all kind of figured this is how things would play out.  That didn't change the effect of the episode though.  There was lots of plot movement beyond the books in this episode, but we did return to one book plot that occurred from Clash of Kings through A Dance With Dragons (books 2-5), and there was much guessing that this would happen this season.

So with that, I will give my usual warning on spoilers.  I have read all 5 of the books and a couple released chapters of Winds of Winter (book 6), but I'm well practiced at not spoiling plot points that have yet to come on the show.  Once they do occur on the show I do seize the opportunity to point out differences/similarities between the 2.  If I'm too tempted to dive into book discussion I will always label this in the post or in comments (and encourage everyone else to do the same) as BOOK SPOILERS.

With that said, let's dive in!

Discussion Points

North of the Wall

Bran returns to Game of Thrones and with an awesome new skill that should help flush out some pivotal backstory to the show.  My guess is this will eventually pull in some essential book material that has been only hinted at in lines of dialogue so far.  But, it will probably also extend beyond that material to reveal things that George R. R. Martin has yet to publish.  Whether they will sync up when all is said and done is anyone's game. 
  • Bran has been in warging training with the 3 Eyed Raven (Force Awakens' Lor San Teka or you know Max Von Sydow as most know him).  In case anyone forgotten as a warg Bran can take over the minds of animals, other people (only he can do this so far) and even catch glimpses of the past, present or future anywhere in Westeros/Essos.  Naturally, this skill allows Bran to look into the past.  But, the way they are showcasing this on the show is that Bran actually walks among the people of the past.  As of yet, he cannot interact with what he is seeing but based on interviews that could potentially change.  Hopefully, we don't get into "Whatever Happened Happened" vs. "Back to the Future" altering time discussions in Game of Thrones! 
  • Bran and the Raven witness the Stark siblings (Ned, Benjen and maybe older brother Brandon) when they were about Bran's age at the start of season 1.  He noted how they were all happy.  
  • Then, their sister Lyanna Stark arrives on horseback.  Bran mentions how his father never speaks about her.  You could tell the 3 eyed raven wanted to say something, but Bran had wandered off into the history lesson.   Keep an eye on the Lyanna story as this season progresses.  She was, afterall, the face that launched Robert Baratheon's Rebellion.   And we all have discussed theories on the implications of her death.  (Book and Show)
  • We got glimpses of Old (younger) Nan who was always telling Bran ghost stories in season 1.  
  • But the big reveal this episode was that Hodor used to be able to speak and his name was Willis!  (The internet has warned us that we will be showered with Different Strokes Memes involving Hodor)  Bran asked Hodor in present day what happened and of course his response was ......"hodor"   
  • Bran wanted to stay in the history for much longer, but the 3 eyed raven warned him that staying too long in the sea will drown him.  Reminded me of Harry Potter staring at his parents in the mirror and being comforted by it.  Dumbledore had a similar warning for him.  
  • The other thing of note besides the creepy Child of the Forest is that Meera is feeling unimportant and probably still mourning the loss of her brother Jojen.   But this child of the forest implied that Bran won't stay in this tree forever and Meera's experience of the world makes her very necessary in Bran's journey.  Meera looks at the vast snowscape ahead of her and appears to be rethinking things. 

King's Landing
  • We start in the slums of King's Landing with the common folk.  You may not recall the man who popped in front of Cersei during her "walk of shame" and showed everything he has to her, but there was a running joke on a certain podcast about him.  The hosts of that podcast just happen to be the new hosts of After the Thrones on HBO.  I feel like this is not a coincidence and his return may have been in response to that.   Anyway, this guy gets his spotlight once again to talk about his shining moment and how Cersei actually licked her lips when she saw him.  Everyone had their laughter, but in the end Ser Robert Strong (aka the Mountain) smashed his skull into a wall very similar to how it was explained that Elia Martell was killed.  It was quick and brutal, but very well executed filming-wise.   I have finally broke the silence on the Mountain's new ridiculous name.  This name was also revealed on After the Thrones even though it has yet to be uttered on the show.  GRRM has a comical way of naming characters some times.  This is one of his classics.  Anyway, it was promised to Cersei that he will not speak until all of the people that wronged Cersei are dealt with.  I guess this was a small example of his commitment.  
  • In other news Tommen has forbidden Cersei to attend Myrcella's funeral, but it was out of shame for what he let happen to her and Margaery.  He feels like a failure of a king and wants guidance on how to be a strong ruler.  After talks with Jaime and apologies to Cersei, Cersei promises to help him.  Ohhhh boy.  
  • Meanwhile, Jaime gets a visit from the High Sparrow in the Sept.  He didn't come alone though.  The Faith Militant surround the duo in numbers that indicate that if Jaime makes any move on the Sparrow he will not survive.  He implies that they have no power as individuals, but in numbers they can overthrow an empire.  Looks like the Sparrow is revealing more of his long term intentions! 
  • Okay, I enjoy my share of eunuch jokes but I think the writers may have over exceeded their limit in the 1st 2 episodes.  Tyrion is at it again with his Varys comments.  The funny part this time is when he implied it's part of their back and forth banter and how Varys jokes about him being a dwarf.  Varys mentions that he never has made fun of him for being a dwarf (which I can't recall it either).  Tyrion responded that he thinks it.  Good stuff.  Also, the reaction of Grey Worm when Tyrion makes his eunuch joke is pretty classic too.  
  • We learn that they are searching for who set the fleet on fire, but no progress on that front yet. 
  • We also learn that Astaphor and Yunkai have stopped asking for aid because the masters have taken the cities back over.  This happened in the book too.  I'm not sure if this is the show writing those cities off as lost causes or if they're going to have to return to them and have Dany free them again. 
  • Tyrion then speaks about his knowledge of Dragons and how they must be unleashed to be of any effect.  He spoke to how they chained up the last of the dragons and they grew to be the size of cats.  Tyrion spoke about the loyalty of Dragons to those they know are on their side.  Missendei was never in danger and now Tyrion wants to befriend the remaining 2 dragons in Meereen.  
  • What transpired was a pretty effective scene of Tyrion talking about his long love of dragon lore and how he always wanted a dragon as a child.  And here he is talking to them, petting them and eventually unchaining them.  We, of course, never feared for Tyrion but they did make the scene pretty scary with the hints of fire coming from them.  
  • I'm not sure if there's an opening in that cave for the dragons to come out, but Tyrion and Varys ran for the door and closed it on their way out.   So, we'll see what happens next.  Surely, this plot will move forward a bit and there will be some optimism for the eventual plan for the dragons. 
  • Arya's training continues.  The Waif girl (I think that's how they spell it) is back to unleash more beatings on her.  They do the whole "who are you test" and Arya passes with her "no one responses".    Eventually Jaquen returns to give her some tempting options to say a girl's name.  He offers her a roof, food and her eyes.  But, A Girl Has No Name.  Jaquen, satisfied, asks Arya to follow and leave her begging plate for a girl is a beggar no more.  On to the next phase! 
Winterfell - Boltons
  • Roose lashes out at Ramsay for losing his best men in the hunt for Sansa/Theon.  Ramsay's new plan is to head North to Castle Black to storm the undefended Castle Black and kill Jon Snow.  He assumes that is where Sansa is headed.  Roose thinks this plan is insane.  Ramsay continues to talk about the North houses that will support them.  The Umbers, Karstarks and another family are not loyal to the Starks.  I'm not sure why the Umbers wouldn't be.  Robb Stark formed a bond with Great Jon Umber in season 1 (Robb's wolf bit off a few of his fingers and he laughed about it).   But the Karstarks definitely hold a grudge for Rob beheading Rickard Karstark in season 3.  One of the Karstarks was present with Ramsay and attested to this.
  • Roose called Ramsay a mad dog.  And in the most convenient timing ever news of Lady Walda giving birth to a boy reaches the Bolton boys.  Congrats go all around and Roose tells Ramsay that he will always be his first born.  He is relieved to hear it but then "gives his regards" to his father.  (see what I did there?)  A dagger to the gut puts an end to Roose! WHAAAT!?!?!?!  RIP Roose Bolton.  May you continue to live on in the books to meet another gruesome end.  Ramsay quickly assumes command and tells the Maester to spread lies of poison by enemies and to bring Lady Walda and baby to him.  
  • The less I speak about what Ramsay does to Walda and newborn son the better.  We knew the show wouldn't hesitate to go there and they certainly did.  Ramsay brought them to visit the hounds and shared the governing update.  And Ramsay implied the rest with announcing he likes being an only child.  
  • So Ramsay has control over Winterfell and will most likely make some bad calculating moves to hopefully lead to his demise.  It sure seems like if there's going to be a battle this season it will be the Bolton Army vs. Wildlings, remaining Night's Watch and anyone else up North.   I'm not entirely sure it all makes sense.  Would they really have this entire battle over Sansa Stark, the key to the North?  
The North - Brienne, Sansa and crew
  • Brienne updates Sansa on what she's been up to.  She mentions she ran into Arya and looked for her for 3 days, but she disappeared.  She tells Sansa she looked good but wasn't dressed as a lady. Sansa smiled at that comment.   
  • There was a wordless exchange of what happened at Winterfell with Sansa and she admits she should've went with Brienne to which Brienne acknowledged it was a difficult choice to make.  
  • Sansa and Theon have a moment to say goodbye as well.  Sansa's plan is still to go to Castle Black to Jon.  She thinks Theon should go there as well to take the black.  She'd update Jon that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon (which Jon already knew).   Theon speaks to his other crimes of betraying Robb, killing the farm boys and Ser Rodrick.  He talks about how he would've died to get Sansa to Castle Black, but with Brienne and Pod there he isn't needed.  He wants to take a horse to head home to Pyke.   It was a touching embrace between 2 characters who have been through their share of torment.  We are totally off book on both Sansa and Theon fronts here! 

The Pyke story, however, is totally a return to a book story that was previously passed by.  When Season 5 started all book readers assumed we'd be skipping the iron born story to consolidate some of the ancillary plots.  However, it seems that the show feels it is necessary to bring it up now.  And, I think I am seeing why.  I can't get into it all just yet.  But, if there was one thing that definitely needed to happen it would be to update everyone on Balon Greyjoy's situation which actually happened in book 2.  Here we are in season 6! 
  • First an update on a TV only plot.  Balon and Yara speak to their loss of Deepwood Motte and how he is disappointed in her failed attempt to rescue Theon.  To clarify, he didn't want her to try and rescue Theon in the first place.   Yara does not think they should be attempting to conquer the North anymore.  They had marched off to war and that's how they seized their lands.  Balon pretty much had one more rant of how he's the king and she will obey him. 
  • Then Balon goes to cross one of the Pyke bridges in a very strong storm.  His younger brother Euron "Crow's Eye" Greyjoy has returned and is waiting to greet him there.  It is clear there is no love share between these 2 siblings.  Euron is a pirate and he goes from town to town plundering.  He makes references to Oldtowne (where Sam is headed to the Citadel) and Qarth (Dany was there in the far east in season 2) and how everyone sees his sails and people fear him.  
  • Balon pretty much insinuates that Euron has lost his mind and pulls out a dagger to kill his brother.  Euron gets the jump on him and throws him off the bridge.  RIP Balon Greyjoy.  You lived 4 seasons longer than any book reader expected you to!   Here's the thing though.  In the books, it is never explicitly stated how Balon Greyjoy meets his end.  We just hear from a raven that he fell off a bridge.   But, there were strong speculations that Euron either killed him himself or hired a faceless man to do it.  Euron hasn't been back to Pyke in a long time, and he just happened to show up a day after Balon's death which led to speculation.  
  • Balon has other brothers, but I'm not sure which ones will get screen time.  We'll find out whenever we have this Kingsmoot which is also a plot from the books.  Basically, they're going to elect their new king (or queen).   Yara (Asha in the books) definitely feels she deserves it the most having been present all these years and earning the respect of the Pyke people.  But, we find out at Balon's funeral that it's not that simple.  So get ready people for a Kingsmoot! 
  • Let me just hint at a theory here.  I don't think there's a coincidence that Qarth was brought up in this episode.  We were reminded that the Iron Born are strong at sea.  Doesn't it seem convenient timing that the fleet has been burned in Meereen?  Let that simmer for awhile.  
Castle Black

  • Sundown.  Archers are pointed at the door where Davos and Jon Snow supporters are.  Alliser Thorne tells them to open up and they'll even let Ghost go free to the North where he belongs.   Davos draws Long Claw with some good last words and get ready to open the door and fight.  But then they hear banging at the front gate.   It's WUN WUN the Giant!  Tormund, Edd and the Wildlings are right behind him.  Barely any blood is shed as one archer fires at Wun Wun.  The Giant makes an example out of him with some fun CGI effects.  Everyone else drops their weapons.  
  • Thorne has some final comments about how they've kept wildlings out of Castle Black for Thousands of years.  Tormund got in a nice blow with "Until you".   Edd refers to Thorne as the traitor slaying his lord commander.  He sends the Night's watch rebels South.   (Do we think they'll team up with the Boltons?)   Anyway, see you later Olly!  
  • We then have Davos meet up with Melisandre in her quarters.  She is down on her faith and at the lowest point she's ever been.  She admits to being a fraud to Davos.  These are all very reminiscent to how Thoros of Myr claimed to be with his faith when be begged the Lord of Light to bring Beric Dondarrion back.  (It also mirrors a long discussion in the off-season that several of us had on the topic)  
  • Davos speaks to how he's not a devout man and doesn't believe in any of the gods.  But, he believes in what he sees and he saw Melisandre survive poison, give birth to a shadow.  He wants to hang onto hope that there is potential for a miracle here.  (FYI - this explains why they didn't burn the body yet.  Davos was hoping the Red woman could help.   Tormund mentioned Jon needed to be burned as soon as possible.  The one dot I have trouble connecting is why Davos would want to go to all of this trouble to bring Jon Snow back from the dead?  They didn't bond THAT much in their brief time together.  But, whatever!  We love Davos and we love Jon Snow!)  
  • Melisandre is convinced to give it a try.  Tormund, Edd, Davos and Ghost are all there.  She washes the wounds and chants her words in what I can only assume are Valaryan (sp).  Nothing happens.  One by one they all leave.  Davos stays the longest hoping for some miracle.   Only Ghost remains, asleep.  But then, his eyes awaken and we hear a gasp of millions of Game of Throne fans sync up with Jon Snow's first gasp!!!  HE'S ALIVE!!!!! 
We all knew it, but it was handled excellently!  And there are so many questions to where the story goes next.  Kit Harrington has already apologized to fans for lying all off-season.  I will share articles later.  But back to the questions.  Is he still a member of the Night's Watch?  The vows are only bound until death.  He died.  Is there even a Night's Watch anymore?  There were only a handful of Snow supporters that weren't aiming arrows at that door.  Did they kick out everyone else?  If so, it's just 4 Night's Watchmen, Melisandre, Davos and the Wildling army.  

All questions I'm looking forward to learning the answers to and discussing with all of you!  Welcome back Jon Snow!  You have much still to do! Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you next week! 


Mike V. said...

These comments were made by Richard on last week's blog. I'm going to delete them from there.

Richard Said

Arya-interesting perspective. I would say what she's doing is like volunteering for SEALS duty. That SHE made the choice and was told it was not easy but wanted to do it anyway. She was told that she would have to become NO ONE and yet she agreed to that. Just like SERE training that gets ugly at times. In all of the above the volunteer always sacrifices themselves for the objective which by definition requires a person to loose a portion of control for themselves. BUT, there is honor gained because the sacrifice is honored. The big choice to undergo training was hers even after she was advised it was not easy.


May 2, 2016 at 5:34 AM Delete
Anonymous Anonymous said...
EP 2. I have an early morning so thought I would go ahead and post. Maybe move later. Anyway I was all ready to post about how this ep and the show was violating canon in not raising the dead quickly. If you recall there are negative consequences for waiting we learned via Beric. And each resurrection has remnants of the prior resurrections.

BUT, WOW, JS lives. Interesting about his dark eyes and that his skin was still blue and that his wounds hadn't healed. We'll see going forward what happens. During all of the ending even after Davos walked out I kept telling myself it's still POSSIBLE he could wake up. When the camera shot to Ghost I had a feeling he was going to wake up. It was pretty good really.

Tyrion unchaining and knowing about dragons was so great. Helps to answer so much speculation over the last several years. I see some good things coming our way.

I sure hope the Jamie/Cersei hand it to the Sparrow. After all these years and knowing about Tommen's heritage it's kind of strange to see him with the Baratheon crown. With him searing the crown it makes me wonder if his heritage will become known to all and on purpose.


Anonymous said...

Thanks MIKE

You pointed out and I should have said something about Tormund wanting to burn Snow. IT"S ABOUT TIME!! Good point on why Davos wants JS brought back, not a strong link.

Yara will win the election if the announced theme of the show runners holds true. Agreed on the ships, those are connected events.

JS is no longer in Night's Watch in my opinion. Great points on whether the Nights Watch is still a stand alone force. I think it will morph as survival will necessitate.

Sure looks like Ramsay will march on Castle Black then meet his end with Brienne's sword--lol.

The Bran story coming back is great. He sure has aged a lot. I sure hope they keep the time travel with the "whatever happened, happened" theory. Otherwise the writers get too much license to just make things up and can throw canon into the wind.


Mike V. said...

I'm going to respond to all of your comments a little bit. Just have a couple minutes right now.

I did want to clarify one point...I thought they said they were going to send Alliser and his cronies south...but then on a podcast this morning I heard they were put in CELLS. Anyone know what they really said?

MJ said...

I disagree - knowing Jon Snow was not going to be truly dead made the moment anti-climactic for me. Do you think they always planned for Bran's visions to show us stuff they originally skipped ? Or is this their way of treading water since they now have no book material. Interesting that Hodor was not always the way he is now. Tomen - yeah that makes sense - I am ashamed that I let my mother down so I will prevent her from going to her daughters funeral ! Whatever. Must be great - actor and actress playing Greyworm and Misandei get paid to act for all of 2 minutes and say almost nothing. Glad the Arya thing is moving forward - that would have gotten old if they left her there a few more eps. Don't know why - but did not see it coming when Ramsey killed Roose. Thought he'd go after the kid - which in the end he does any way. Yikes - these dogs get alot of people meat.
Quite the body count really - but they were all pretty unimportant people with Balon and the Frey woman and her child.

Mike V. said...

I really don't think Arya is going to lose her identity. I feel she's going through the motions to learn all of their skills, but then is going to go off and hunt the people on her list. Kinda like Nolan's Batman learning from the league of shadows. But that's just my theory.

I do recall Beric's comments and I wonder how Jon will be changed. It's only 1 resurrection vs. 8 or however many it was for Beric. Yes! JS lives.....yeah...I felt like they wouldn't waste this scene without him waking up...but still they drew it out so long that I wondered if they would. One thing I forgot to mention was that Melisandre's chants didn't really didn't work until she begged PLEASE in english (or whatever language they call that in Westeros...common tongue?)

I wonder what you're speculating about Tyrion....I did love the scene though. If you're going to talk about our theories we might want to dive back into potential BOOK SPOILER warning territory!

Yeah it's so funny to think tommen is still theoretically a Baratheon....but everyone knows he isn't. The Baratheon line is done. But I think the Stag Sigil still flies on King's Landing in the opening credits.

I'm going to not say anything about the Kingsmoot because we have book knowledge there, but interesting on your comments about Girl Power.
Yeah...i think the wall still needs to be guarded so it'll be interesting to see who does it.

Yeah...I just hope they don't get much into time travel at all...doesn't seem to fit in Game of Thrones...but as a means to explore the past it's great. BTW...I messed up calling Bran's historical/future visions warging. It's his greenseeing.

@MJ -

Legitimate feelings to have on Jon Snow's rebirth. I know fans have always hoped that eventually Bran would be the key to showing us important backstory from the books. It's one thing to talk about scenes (which is how it is unveiled in the books)...but it's another to actually show them in person and from the perspective of someone in the present watching it unfold. I don't think they're treading water at all. The backstory potentially plays into a reveal that we're still waiting for in the show. I don't think they have any intentions of treading water. They want to move this story to conclusion. I'm guessing the Hodor transformation will be a "side story" to this developing back story lol

Hey just think about how much Mark Hamill probably got paid to appear in The Force Awakens! lol Best payday ever! Greworm and Missendei probably didn't get that much. :)

I didn't see it when Ramsay killed roose either...I mean I kind of always expected something like that could happen, but it was so sudden that it shocked me.

Balon's death was more significant in what follows it. It actually was from a book (I think it might actually be book 3...i said 2 in the recap). Roose is still very much alive in the books. I do wonder if killing a Frey may bring Walder back into the fold. There's some Frey story left to tell from the books as well. And I've been hoping for it!

Mike V. said...

EW Stories:

It will be a cover story this week on the secret Jon Snow revival plans:

Kit Breaks his silence:

Hibberd Recap:

Anonymous said...

Arya--Well, if she's just faking it, then there could be some negative repercussions and in my opinion should be. I don't find her character likeable anyway. She's really too full of hate. She's not a joke like Brienne though-lol.

I think the wall be guarded by all who know it needs defending. But ultimately we know the wall will fail or at least that there's a terific battle leveling Kings Landing from Dany's dream.

Ramsey killing Roose was a surprise. I thought and maybe because I was hoping it would go the other way asap. But, the show runners like to have a horrible human hanging around doing horrible things on a continual basis. Kind of gets old as a plotline, especially since the character is multi season.

MJ on Snow--that whole is he dead/when will he arise thing was getting old for me too. I said earlier if it drags on then the show will be worse for it. That is a good example of having way too many months between seasons too.

ON Yara, just from the TV show. I just can't see her not becoming the leader after the TV audience has got to know her as well as being someone you can pull for and the show runners have said that this is the year for girl power. This is one of those areas where the book may not be followed down the line?


On Tyrion. I don't call it book spoilers because I don't think it's in the books yet. But, I think we have both speculated that Tyrion will be riding one of the dragons at some point. After last night I think that's legit speculation based just on the TV show?


Mike V. said...

One other thing I forgot...I assumed Theon meant he was going to Pyke when he said he was going HOME....and they flashed to Pyke in the next scene to further lead us that way. But he has always identified more with the Starks as a family. I think there's a chance he might just be going back to Winterfell to right some wrongs and get some good old fashioned revenge.

I can't take credit for this theory myself...heard it on a podcast, but it made too much sense to not consider it a strong possibility. Then again...on this same podcast one of the people said "eckspecially" and "drawlings" to irks among the many listeners. lol I don't usually enjoy this podcast but it's the only one available so soon after the episode so I listen to it. (Afterbuzz TV - Game of Thrones) I much prefer Clash of Kings podcast and of course Andy and Chris (from After the Thrones) doing their The Watch Pod for Channel 33 (Bill Simmons network)

Mike V. said...

Arya is still one of my favorite characters...especially in the book. I think she is one we are meant to root for and shoot root for through to the end. Enough has happened to her to justify her actions plotwise (not humanity-wise lol)....we root for her vengeance. We want Sansa to get vengeance too. All of the Starks!! We want the Starks to rise. I don't know if she's necessarily "faking it"...i just feel like she has to retain her identity for a satisfying conclusion to her story.

Yeah...I think Ramsay's days are numbered...he has been the guy to fill in for Joffrey....but once he's gone I think we focus more on the larger threat to Westeros. (And I always Essos in danger too? Or do they just get to live out their lives in the sun? lol)

It was something that was unavoidable. It was a major book plot, it had to be done, and it takes long to film these seasons...and the press/fans are all over the show since it's a phenomenon. It was too tough to keep totally under wraps...but I'm still interested in EW's cover story on how they tried. Plus...there were too many book fans with a few years in advance to think about theories on how Jon Snow could come back. We still don't know if this is how he'll come back in the books but we're still pretty certain he will.

Ironborn - There are still plenty of ways for the show to divert from the book plot with the greyjoys....I don't think we're going to see Victarion Greyjoy (who was a POV character in the books)....I think we get Euron and the Drowned Priest brother (Damphair??? I think we've already seen him doing the funeral ceremony and theon's rebirth ceremony).....but I don't want to talk too much about what happens at the Kingsmoot....I think you could be onto something, but I think it could go a different way but then Yara has her shining moment as well.

Right....Tyrion riding the dragon....I thought you were going to go with the secret targaryan theory....which gets into some story from the book that really wasn't covered in the show. It could be legit speculation that Tyrion could be a dragon rider.... I agree. We know Dany will ride Drogon. I still wonder if Bran will warg with one.

Anonymous said...


OH yea, I can see that happening--Bran and the dragon. BUT

What about the Kingsmoot and the Euron. He's been to Esos and knows about the dragons, doesn't he?

It will be interesting if Euron comes out on top vs Yara. I suspect Yara will even though it's not following the books.

I think Theon is heading to the Kingsmoot though and so he may become the ruler OR, he may back Yara. Anyway, I think the Kingsmoot will be different than in the books since Theon will likely be there.


Anonymous said...

I meant to post this last week for the season premiere


Mike V. said...

Thanks for the link Richard, that's hysterical!

*********************SPECULATION and Book Stuff*********************

Yeah...I just assumed they'd go with Euron as the new ruler to stick as close to book canon as possible when they're telling book stories. He may give a speech about Dany and the Dragons and how he wants to lead the Iron Born to this land.

Where I think they'll divert is with the whole wanting to marry Dany...and doing the whole 1000 suitors for Dany in book 5. But clearly she needs a fleet and they have a fleet. It's possible that was always part of GRRM's plan was to unite The Targaryans, Dothraki, Martells and the Ironborn in her triumphant return to westeros (And of course with Tyrion by her side)

Did you see my post about speculation that Theon might have been referring to Winterfell as his home and he might be going back for revenge on Ramsay?

Anonymous said...

Theon--Yea, I saw your post and that's one reason I said I thought Theon was going to the Ironborn. I could be wrong of course but am thinking the Ironborn story will diverge from the books. I can see why some would say he wants revenge but I think the revenge will all be left for Brienne. I also keep referring to that pic of the big battle for this season as a reference for consideration in cases like this.

IF Theon were to go to Winterfell, I can't see he'd have much of a future-lol. And yet I think we're going to see more of the eunoch.

BTW, am I the only one who thinks it's funny this season that they are simultaneously playing up eunochs and strong women.


Mike V. said...

Theon - Ahh gotcha my bad. Yeah...I don't think Iron Born story will be exactly the same, but I think it may have similar broad strokes. But yeah...I really don't know which way they'll go with Theon. I could see either way. As for know I'm still holding out hope for something lol But with their goal being to get to the wall I'm not sure how that's possible.

It's kinda funny about the eunuchs and strong women...though so far I'm not seeing much about strong women...only the pre-season talk. And now that we know that EW was working on a secret Jon Snow cover story that sounds like it's why they had a feature on the "Women of Game of Thrones" before the season. I was listening to the EW Game of Thrones Podcast and Gibbered said they usually have a rule to do only one cover story for a show per season. Only James and the top editors knew about this secret exclusive deal they had with the GoT team.

Anonymous said...

LOL, Incrementally the situation in Dorne is definitely a big deal re strong women. Brienne's situation hasn't changed but Yara's has in that she's being considered for the top dog. Also, with her Dad dead, Tyrion gone and Tommen asking her for help, Cersei is setting up to be the most powerful for KL. And anybody who expects Dany to be cooped up in some widows home is crazy. To me, her coming to rule will be very interesting to see. The last time her Khal died. I don't know how it will happen now? Maybe you do?

This second ep showed promise for this season.


Mike V. said...

Dorne yes...but I just don't expect that to play largely into the story anymore.

Yara - Yes but that's book related up to this point. We'll see how it plays out.

Cersei - Yep, but she's always maintained some kind of power. She's been playing the game since season 1. When you play the game you win or you die, she said to Ned.

Dany - Also has been in a position of authority for awhile now. I don't know how she'll get out of there....but I just have a feeling that she will get the dothraki in her camp before all is said and done.

I know it doesn't mean much coming from D&D but they think this will be their strongest season yet. They say that every year....but of course they REALLY mean it! lol Like I mentioned before, the 1st eps are always tough for Thrones. Setting the table for the season and what not. Things are looking up and I can't wait for more!

If they start going back into some passed by book stories it could really make for some shocking moments. And of course...if Bran's review of history gets to an ultimate reveal Book and Show fans alike will be shocked. Shocked at the actual information and shocked that it was actually revealed on the show (and yet to be in the books)

Mike V. said...

I'm sure all excerpts from Hibberd's exclusive interview with Harrington. He apparently had to lie to the cast too

Anonymous said...

LOL on book stuff that could have shocking moments. LS of course comes to mind.

Well, Cersei was never in true charge. It was either Robert then Tywin then even Tyrion since Tywin didn't trust her then of course Tywin again and of course Joffrey started putting her in her place. She's never in truely been fully in charge--there was always somebody jerking on her reins.

Dany of course has been in charge. BUT, I suspect she will rise to new heights in power uniting several Khals along with her already conquered cities. Kind of like being the King of all of Westeros uniting the 7 Kingdoms vs just 1 kingdom.


You asked a question, maybe rhetorical, about Esos the other day. It's been something on my mind for a few seasons now. And that is, will the upcoming Ice vs Fire war be only in Westeros. For example, if the ships have to bring Dany over to Westeros what does that mean for Esos. Will there be a war there first? Something tells me we have a clue with the greyscale and Mormont. But, I haven't figured it out yet. I think GRRM means for the North of WEsteros to be older and to have major significance compared to anything in Esos. But I'm not sure. I can't recall the ancient Targaryan related cities in Esos but I don't think they go back as far as the North. Because of this I'm thinking maybe the final action will be based in Westeros. But, I can't see Esos not having any significant battle. The question is, who will fight whom?


Mike V. said...

Of course! Never give up hope!

Fair points on Cersei. She is in a better position now with Tommen on her side. Last season she was dealing with Margaery drama and then the Faith Militant.
Conquered CITY for Dany....she lost Yunkai and Astaphor as mentioned in this past episode. But yes...I think she will get the Dothraki behind her once again.


I've always assumed the final battle was in Westeros....but I just wonder if that's too small of thinking. We've spent a lot of time exploring Essos over the books and series as well. There are the Stone Men in Essos (The Doom of Valarya) .....I know GRRM is opening up book 6 with the Battle of Meereen as well. But that's man vs. man. There's a chance that battle may still happen if the Ironborn come that way. But then you assume they'll be heading west once they have Dany, her dragons and her armies.

I do wonder if somehow the White Walkers will make their way East as well.

Anonymous said...

Dany--I expect to be something not really seen before in Esos. In Westeros it takes someone special to rule the 7 kingdoms--the whole of Westeros. I think she will become that for Esos.


I've been wondering about the White Walkers going to Esos as well. Recall that I talked about them trying to get ships last year. And, exactly--Stone Men and Valarya, etc. As per above I think there will be a major battle in Esos and Dany will come out on top. I just don't know about the White walkers. I give that about a 15% chance. BUT, the Stone Men instead of White Walkers along with some other interesting types that MAYBE we haven't fully seen yet(I'm REALLY speculating here) in a battle could be possible. Particularly the Stone Men. If we see the White Walkers dealing with port cities again, then the % chance of them going to Esos goes up a lot.

One thing to consider on timelines is that with JS resurrected--how will that effect EVERYTHING. Like the White Walkers, the Boltons, Ironborn, KL, Etc. If he's going to be what we think he is will that be occuring quickly or over time? For example will he have a similar experience as Dany where he changes through a fire experience?

I firmly believe the TOJ stuff will be brought out as a part of telling the story of him being a Targaryan. So, he can marry Dany like all good Targaryans marry their own--lol.

This really could be a great season.


Mike V. said...

Dany - Interesting theory. She certainly has her work cut out for her, especially since she lost 2 of her cities that were under her control and Meereen feels they have lost their leader too. But, if she rolls in with her dragons and united army behind her who knows? I just don't feel they have the time for another tour around Essos for her to declare her Queendom over all the lands.


I still don't think that's what the White Walkers were doing when they attacked at hardhome. I don't think they were trying to get the ships. I mean...I guess it makes sense, but I really think they were just trying to kill men for their army of wights. would be potentially a way for them to go into Essos as well. I just feel like they'd destroy any ship that they touch similar to when they touch non valaryian steel swords.

Yeah...potentially Dany battling stone men could help solidify her savior role.

I think we'll know a lot more next episode on how much Jon has changed. I've also heard rumors that the "BIG THEORY" may be revealed as early as episode 3. Well if Dany had a fire experience wouldn't it be fitting if he had some kind of ICE experience? lol I know he's probably a T...but he's also an S too. He IS the song of Ice and Fire.

I definitely heard the fan theories (from years ago) that Dany and Jon might potentially marry. I guess it's possible...but I'm not sure about it!

I do agree this could be a very good season though. While we know the direction they're heading we really have no idea what exactly will happen!

Anonymous said...

Good point on time needed for Esos conquering by Dany. But time compression could come into play and they could just make it a few eps really. It would in some ways help fill in the next couple of seasons, particularly the additional time HBO wants? This is of course just speculation.

Well, the white walker army didn't just destroy the wooden fence at Hardhome. They had to go under, over it and bust it down. It's just a theory of course. I'm about 60% with this theory btw. It could make for a great sea battle too.


GREAT point on the ICE and JS. I know, the idea of a "fire" Targaryan and ICE Northman like JS makes speculating difficult but fun. Dany fire, JS ice has always made since. BUT the TOJ stuff brings in the Targaryan element and so the fire. Given the upcoming TOJ scenes, maybe it will introduce some fire element? JS upon his resurrection sure looks like ice to me, if you will. As I write this, MAYBE, just maybe JS is the embodiement of both ice and fire???


Mike V. said...

All good points! There always could be a time jump prior to the end. GRRM's original idea was to "skip 5 years" after the events of A Storm of Swords to allow time for the dragons and kids to grow up a bit. But then he felt that would be a letdown from all the loose threads he left to explore in the immediate aftermath. And of course, time has elapsed more on the show than it did the books as the kids have aged year to year. (Granted, Sansa still said she was 14 when she married But there have been other references to years elapsing since the beginning of the story)

Good point on the wooden fence at Hardhome. But if you recall...those were the wights that barged through the fence...not the walkers. They looked on from the mountain as the wights did the dirty work. Then the one walker jumped down and started attacking the Thenn and Jon in the tent. He made the sword explode and then Jon grabbed longclaw and took him out. We've only seen the walkers touch a few things. Swords....and a baby who they turned into a white walker.


Well that's why I kind of went above with Jon being BOTH Ice and Fire and how the "song of ice and fire" may technically be about him. And now I see you may have come to the same conclusion. lol

Anonymous said...

**********spec work below*****************************

I just can't just see an entire saga about one guy in this day and time. I mean TV shows always want more drama ie c**p that makes things interesting ie convoluted. See my post on cynism being the order of the day when somebody is killed/dies.

You could be spot on with where GRRM is headed--JS being both ice and fire. Whereas D&D may be wanting to make it about a love story of ice and fire? And it is possible as I write this that those two different directions contribute to my lack of clarity. OF course JS being both ice and fire does not mean that a relationship with Dany can't or won't happen. I mean she went through the fire and so is not normal either. Both of them have loved and lost in somewhat parallel stories.

So many people think Dany is the fire in the story of ice and fire. I tend to agree with them but as stated before JS does indeed have both. HMM. Curious minds want to KNOW--lol


Mike V. said...


No, it's not ALL about him...and that was an exaggeration about him being THE SONG. But the fact that he may represent both Ice and Fire is not an exaggeration. But I'm not just talking about the TV Show here either...I'm still referring to GRRM's book plans too.

Funny...sometimes I make a comment and then read your next sentence and it's right in line with what I'm saying. lol

I think we just have to assume Jon and Dany will be involved somehow in the conclusion to the story. Maybe that's a bad assumption and it will only end up being one of them. As far as them having a relationship in TV vs Book or both...I really don't know. That seems like a major plot point to just introduce into the show without it having some relevance to the books. It seems like both of them have loved their true loves and may not need to explore their future loves. a game of thrones with a need for successors you kind of need something to happen there. But considering Dany wants to BREAK THE WHEEL...maybe you don't need that. Plus in the books...Dany is barren and cannot have any more children. The black magic witch did it to her I think.

I do look forward to the day where Jon meets Dany. You figure it has to happen eventually! Where it goes from there? Anyone's guess.

Anonymous said...

*****************spec work****************************

Wow, that's right Dany's barren. That could be a huge plot change if she isn't in the show.

Is there anyway the books will turn that around? I mean we've got 3 different ways to raise the dead--lol.

Yea, she says break the wheel and I get it. I'm not sure how that will be instituted though. I mean, even with communism or just communes, leaders emerge and you end up with a person or group of people telling the others what to do. It's just nature. Even with animals.


Mike V. said...


Well, I never 100% believed it in the books. I'm not sure if the witch told her she could never have children again.....but she could've lied.

Yeah...but I think the break the wheel was more around "FAMILIES" ruling the kingdoms. I don't think she intends to continue a Targaryan dynasty. Which could play into the fact that she can't have children. Whoever succeeds her may not necessarily be her offspring. This is all speculating that she actually will sit on the Iron Throne of course.

BTW....I think GRRM has said in interviews that multiple people may sit on that throne before all is said and done. In the show...we have to assume Tommen is going to die to fulfill that prophecy, right? I wonder if the High Sparrow intends to usurp the throne.....prior to someone else more permanent sitting there. And of course in the show those petty sand snakes may want to overthrow the Lannisters. (which would be completely horrible)

In the book...Stannis is still alive...there's no telling if he'll survive the Battle of Winterfell though.

Anonymous said...


That's a good point about Tommen. Will he make it until Dany comes. And that would be absolutely horrible of the Dorne gals took over. What a depressing thought. But I'm thinking Tommen's reign may be longer than expected with Robert Strong and Cersei/Jamie working together. Can you imagine the conflict between the Dorne gals and the faith militant.

I"m still thinking Peter's going to come into play.


Mike V. said...

Yeah good point with little finger. Haven't seen him so out of sight out of mind.

Fair points on tommen's support system too.

Anonymous said...

Yea, who are Tommen's enemies, who is trying to become the King of the 7 kingdoms? We don't have an identified Tommen foe at this point that seems formidable with an army. So, the faith militant and Dorne gals are the only ones who seem like they want to give Tommen a fight and that's assuming Tommen will rise to fight the faith militant over his Mom and Wife. Dorne would have to have a good sized navy to attack KL and Tommen could call in his banners so that would result in Dorne needing to have a good sized army. The Dorne gals though don't seem they want a regular war. Doesn't seem their style. Something more like a sneak attack with poison. So, I could see Tommen being taken out with a covert op.

Of course the show runners could always come up with a somewhat unsubstantiated reason as they did with Davos for JS--lol.


Mike V. said...

Myrcella didn't have a foe either, just someone who hated the Lannister family. If Tommen starts wanting to cause problems for the Faith Militant, then he might face adversity. And Cersei offering to help him to take advantage of getting back in the power seat may be his undoing and fulfillment of the prophecy. But yeah...unfortunately that Dorne plot is not over I'm sure the ladies will be back. lol

*************************BOOK SPECULATION************************************

So I listen to this Storm of Spoilers podcast that freely talks about the books and examine trailers and production set stuff to try and figure out the episodes coming up. They think Euron is still going to win the Kingsmoot....but they also spotted yara in a Meereen/Essos shot in the they think Euron will send Yara to Meereen.

Also, I was thinking about this but didn't mention it...and now they talked about it on this podcast too. What if Euron's crew set that fleet on fire in Meereen to try and draw an alliance with Dany and get her back West? They also speculated on the podcast that it might be Varys. In any case, they assume it has to be someone we already know and not yet another character reveal. We'll see.

Mike V. said...

EW's Jon Snow cover story is available now. But you need to be a subscriber for access:

Anonymous said...

((((((((((((spec 888888888888888888888888888888888

OK, so I was reading the speculation re the podcast and was not buying into much. BUT, then you mentioned Varys and the burning ships trying to get Dany back to Westeros. We all know Varys likes the Targaryans so that is an interesting possibility.

It will be interesting to see why Euron is so interested in getting Dany over too.

ONly 8 eps left--lol.


Mike V. said...

8 episodes left - nice one lol


Yeah, the ol "he who smelt it dealt it" philosophy with Varys. He tells Tyrion there is a man behind this...why not him? It would tie into his epilogue plot to A Dance With Dragons where he kills Kevan Lannister and Pycelle in the name of Dany. That might not happen in the show (maybe it will), but to see he has that side to him to kill in order to get his way could be an interesting angle for the show. But will it really accelerate Dany's plan to leave Meereen to destroy her ships?? What would be Varys thinking there?

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