Monday, May 16, 2016

Game of Thrones: Season 6 Episode 4 - Book of the Stranger

Hello everyone and welcome back to our Game of Thrones season 6 discussion.  Another solid effort for the show reaching past the novels for a majority of the episode.  We are getting a clearer picture of where things are headed this season and, for some storylines, even possibly further than that.  I'm short for time this week so let's dive right in!

Discussion Points

I'm going to go a little out of order here to save the meat of the episode for the end.

The Vale

  • Littlefinger is working his magic in support of Sansa Stark.  He has brought a present of some rare falcon to Robin Arryn of the Vale and threatened his #1 officer to comply with his demands.  He used his bond with Robin to get Robin excited about throwing Royce through the moon door if he didn't swear absolute loyalty.  Royce's distrust for Littlefinger is evident, but there wasn't much he could do about it.  He got outplayed.  
  • Littlefinger updates Robin on Sansa's escape and that she's heading to Castle Black which is not safe.  He intended to Robin to call in the Knights of the Vale to help his cousin and that's exactly what he succeeded in doing.  Looks like Jon may have some help afterall.  But, what's Petyr's game here?  Chaos still?  Or does he truly have a soft spot for Sansa? 
  • Also, we can add Robin of the Vale to the awkwardly aging Kids of Thrones.   


  • Tyrion worked on compromising with the enemy much to Missendei and Grey Worm's disliking.  He brought the leaders of Yunkai (we saw him in season 3 when Dany freed the city) and Astapor (Just happened to be Tyrion's slave owner from last season) to negotiate a truce and for them to stop funding the Sons of the Harpy (which they declined doing).  
  • Long story short, Tyrion offered them a transition plan of 7 years to stop their slave trade.  He insisted slavery will not come back to Meereen.  Tyrion brought up Westeros as an example of surviving financially without slaves for hundreds of years.  He sealed the deal with offering them women as well.  
  • The people of Meereen were displeased that this meeting was even taking place.  Missendei and Grey Worm were forced into an unenviable position of defending Tyrion's actions and calling them the Queen's wishes.   Tyrion spoke to them afterwards and says he is trying to honor Dany's work but also bring peace.  He doesn't trust the masters but their self interest.  Contempt is their weakness and they will use it to their advantage. 
  • Also important to note Tyrion mentioned Dany will not be staying in Slaver's Bay forever.  We all know that, but it's nice to hear once in a while! And at least this episode had her discussing moving West again. 

King's Landing

  • We revisit Margaery's plight with the High Sparrow and Shame nun this week.  The High Sparrow gives more of his backstory which apparently sounded a lot like the Book of the Stranger (Name of Episode alert!) to Margaery who attempted to finish his story.  Basically, he tried to identify with Margaery as being the same as her once.  Desiring money and finer things.  But he found himself to be a fraud and left it all behind even the shoes (He was a shoemaker just like his father who died young).  
  • The Sparrow allowed Margaery to see Loras who is not doing well in his confinement.  He wants it all to stop.  Margaery thinks the Sparrow wants her to help tear her brother down and she insists they must not give in.  But, she seems to be only concerned in helping her brother.  
  • On the other side of the city, Cersei is still plotting her revenge against the sparrow.  She walks in on Pycelle comically giving Tommen advice on the situation and then still playing his act as he limps out of the room.  
  • Tommen confesses to talking with the Sparrow, and apparently told Cersei something he wasn't supposed to tell anyone about their meeting.  I don't remember any secret information divulged, but please correct me if I missed something!  
  • I can only assume that scene tied into Cersei and Jaime going to the small council to reason with Olenna Tyrell and Kevan Lannister.  They insisted putting their bickering aside as it was all part of the High Sparrow's plan to keep progress from happening.  (is that what he told Tommen?)   They all are on the same page from preventing Margaery's walk of Atonement as a they need to maintain respect for the "office" of the Queen.  The sparrow has no respect for their roles.   Cersei and Jaime pitch bringing in the Tyrell Army to come into the city and end this Faith Militant occupation.  Kevan protested that he is not to fight the Faith per the King's orders.  He warned of civil war.  Jaime brought up how they can get Lancel Lannister (his son) back.  In the end everyone bought in.   I can't help but think the Sparrow will see this coming. 
  • Also, it should be noted that Cerise's trial is in a few days.  They have already pitched a trial by combat last week in which the Mountain would have to fight someone.  For it to be an impactful fight you would imagine it would have to be someone we know.  There are strong theories out there, but I don't want to bring them up in the recap for fear it may spoil the fun of a reveal. 


  • The Kingsmoot is coming!  I didn't think they'd draw it out too much across the season, but we had to make time for a Theon/Yara reunion.  It was pretty emotional as Theon knew he hurt Yara when she came with her men to rescue him.  Some of her men died and he refused to go with her.   He spoke to how Ramsay broke him into 1000 pieces and she acknowledged the one she saw.  
  • Yara was more concerned Theon was there to claim his place as King of the Iron Islands since his timing just happened to coincide with their father's death.  But, he really just wants to support his sister's claim to the throne.  We'll see how that goes! 


  • Ramsay met with Osha.  The scene was looking way too much like the season 2 scene where Osha seduced Theon, so we knew Ramsay had to have something else in mind with his line of questioning.  He knew she was a Stark loyalist even though she pretended not to be.  He knew this because he broke Theon and Theon told all.  The implication is that Theon told Ramsay that Osha seduced him and then escaped with Bran and Rickon.  
  • Osha was plotting to kill Ramsay, but Ramsay had one up on her and stabbed her in the neck.  Ugh.  RIP Osha.  Characters are dropping like flies this season.  But, we have amassed a large amount of excess characters of the years so they are able to write many off as we approach the end of the show!   (Note: Rickon and Osha are still alive and "off screen" in the book world)

Castle Black

  • As many had predicted Jon Snow didn't quite leave Castle Black just yet.  He had a discussion with Edd about where he plans to go.  He plans to go South and get warm.  Edd is very confused on how Jon can leave in their time of need.  They all were at Hardhome.  They know what's coming.  Jon insisted that he pledged his life and gave his life to the Night's Watch.  His own brothers killed him. (It should be noted that Edd did kind of imply Jon shouldn't be able to get out of his vows on the technicality that he died, but he's still doing it anyway) It's been stated in the show and in the books that when people come back they're not quite the same.   They're missing something.  I'm not sure we know what Jon is missing, but he does seem to be missing some sympathy to the threat from the North.  We all know Jon has a role to play in the long night to come, but right now he is at a low point and is reluctant to play his part.  Happens in every hero's journey.  I'm willing to watch this thing through.  And if anyone can pull him out of his stupor, perhaps his half-sister can? 
  • Yes folks, we finally got a Stark Reunion!  No, no one was ever envisioning it would be Sansa and Jon Snow as they never shared an on screen minute even in season 1 (confirmed, go back and see!), but we were all overwhelmed with emotion when they embraced!  
  • The 2 reminisced on Winterfell and Old Nan's cooking.  They discussed how they weren't terribly close growing up, but they've been through so much now that bygones are bygones.  And let's just say Sophie Turner's performance has been evolving well over the years but was exceptionally well in this episode.  
  • It would seem that Jon shared all that has happened off screen including bringing the Wildlings south and I guess dying? That didn't surprise her?  Or they saved her reaction for off screen?  Odd, but okay.  Sansa insists that they must take back Winterfell.  It's their home.  She still has hope that they will all be reunited one day: Arya, Bran, Rickon, and the 2 of them.  If Jon won't help she says she'll do it herself.   The problem is Jon no longer wants to fight.  He recapped what he's done since he joined the Night's Watch and all of it involved fighting.  He's killed his own brothers, wildlings, men he respected (The Halfhand) and even hung a young boy (No one blames you for Olly, Jon!)  
  • Davos and Melisandre have a moment.  Mel says she will go wherever Jon Snow goes as he is The Prince Who Was Promised.  She walked away when he mocked her saying he thought that was Stannis.  Davos asked about what happened to Shireen, but before Mel could answer Brienne came in and discussed her contempt for Stannis's former advisors.  She admitted to killing Stannis, accused Mel for her part in the murder of Renly Baratheon and mentioned she does not forget easily.  Looks like we'll have some conflict brewing for people on the same side of an upcoming fight. 
  • Later, a rider with a Bolton Banner arrives and delivers a letter to "Lord Commander Jon Snow" to which Jon insists he isn't.  The letter is from Ramsay and accuses Jon Snow of being a traitor and attempting to lure him South.  He allowed thousands of wildlings through the Wall.  Ramsay says he has Rickon.  He wants his bride back.  He gives an ultimatum to if she is not returned.  Lots of rape and hounds involved and spooning of eyes.  All sewn together into a repetitive theme of "COME AND SEE".   This letter was, believe it or not, in the books.  It is referred to by fans as the PINK LETTER.   But the timing is much different.  In the books Jon received the letter before his death and it was the primary reason he was accused of breaking his vows and what led to his death.  He ordered the Night's Watch and the Wildlings to help him march South to take out the Boltons.   The contents of the letter were different too.  The Boltons had Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole, but they insisted it was Arya Stark.  Sansa took the place of fake Arya last season and now Rickon is taking the place of fake Arya this season.  
  • But all of that comparing is fun yet pointless.  Here, we have Sansa taking charge and insisting they have to go save Rickon and take back Winterfell.  Tormund seems on board with his 2000 men (the rest of the wildlings are older or children).  Sansa believes the North will come to fight for a Stark.   Jon is the son of the last true Warden of the North.  Jon agrees to lead the fight!  (surely something will happen on this quest that gets him believing in the bigger cause again)
  • Oh and funniest part of the episode has to go to Tormund taking a liking to Brienne and Edd's reaction to the whole thing.  Classic! 

Vaes Dothrak

  • Daario and Jorah arrive to the Dothraki city.  Daario makes more comments about how he got into Dany's pants (Ride the Dragon.  Nice one.), but then also says he has no interest in fighting with Jorah.  
  • Jorah removes his weapons as the city has a strict policy against them.  Daario notices the grey scale.  Jorah acknowledges that he knows what happens.  Something tells me a self-sacrifice is coming at some point.  He has no intention of finding a cure. 
  • The duo wait until night and head into the city.  They get into it with a couple Dothraki.  Jorah is almost choked to death but Daario stabbed the Dothraki dude in the heart with the knife he confiscated in.  He smashed the chest to try and conceal the knife wound.  
  • Meanwhile Dany is making the best of her confines to the Temple of the Dosh Khaleen.  She bonds with one of the younger Khaleesis who was enamored with Dany's story.  They run into Jorah and Daario who planned to help her escape.  But, come on, we can't let an empowered woman be rescued by 2 men who love her right?  Dany has a plan and she needs their help to execute the plan. 
  • Later, all of the Khals have gathered in the Temple and are deciding what to do with Dany.  Dany offers her unrequested opinion.  She remembers being there before when she ate the heart of a horse and when Drogo swore to take his hoard south to conquer Westeros for her.  Now, she said she will lead the Dothraki for larger ambitions than raiding a small city.   The Khals laugh and question why they would ever serve her.   She responds saying that she doesn't expect them to serve.  
  • Then she sets fire to the entire temple and burns all of the Khals!  WHAAAT?  Of course, she survives the fire and puts on a spectacle for ALL of the leaderless Dothraki to see.  She walks out of the flaming temple to the gathering crowd of thousands upon thousands (if not more) all taking the knee and swearing allegiance.   Daario and Jorah, who had killed the guards and barred the doors, also took the knee in disbelief in what they have seen.  
  • I don't think it's any surprise that Dany figured out her own escape plan or that she recruited the Dothraki, but how she went about it was pretty surprising!  I was reading one of the Entertainment Weekly articles about this episode (which I'll link to) and apparently there is still debate about BOOK Dany and if she truly has this superpower with the fire.  It was played up in the show that way, but apparently George R. R. Martin has mentioned before that her surviving the pyre with the birth of the dragons was a one time thing.  It doesn't matter at this points the show and books are going in slightly different directions, but this may cause a bit of stir with purist book fans.  Both book and show are trying to end in the same place, but are going to take different routes there.  This at least is entertaining us on the way! 
That's all I have for this week.  I'll add the EW links later when I have some time.  Just a heads up on next week.  I will be traveling and plan to at least WATCH the episode, but not sure I'll have time to recap.  I will put a post up regardless for discussion.  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you next week! 


MJ said...

Ha ! Jon Snow DID get to see Sansa ! I was so moved by that. Though Brienne and Melisandre was nothing short of awesome awkwardness !

Ok - have to read your recap now. ;-P

Anonymous said...

Thanks again.

I think the Sparrow's secret to Tommen then told to Cersei was that Jamie is his Dad. Which would be the biggest threat to her family's position. She recognized that something had to be done to stop the Sparrow now before divulging that secret which could see Tommen forcibly removed from office. There are 2 HUGE questions at this point to me.
1. Will the Mountain win?
2. Will the secret about the Lannisters come out?

Can you imagine the COMPLETE chaos if the Mountain looses and that secret comes out? The Dorne Gals will be jumping for joy. Kevan Lanister's position would be worthless and Margery's too. My guess is the Tyrell's army could put them on the throne? But, the Sparrow could become the overall ruler particularly IF his followers are greater in number than so far portrayed. Trying to grasp GoT without Cersei and Jamie next season. I'm thinking they'll make it but maybe behind bars.

YES, the Dany stuff and fireproof is a HUGE ask. And I'm NOT a book purist. That's a HUGE difference. It makes her almost godlike. And NO dragons--how disappointing.

I'm thinking it's a "moot" point--lol. Yara's name is different from the book. She's going to rule the Ironborn--70% chance anyway is my guess. We didn't even see Euron this ep after barely seeing him last ep.

Always fun to watch Tyrion at work.

So, the rumors were true, Jon and Sansa met. Yea, Brienne's always causing trouble since she doesn't believe in bygones being bygones. She'd be a horrible leader--probably not much better then she is an athlete--lol. OK, just had to get one barb in. Sansa pulling Jon to lead is for what purpose really. I mean that storyline is kind of worthless. I mean Jon just needs to suck it up. Leave the crying for the kids. AS you know, I'm not a huge fan of the actor nor the character.

So, the 2000 Wildlings will meet up with the Vale forces in attacking Ramsay's 5000. I understand the math but the reason for Petyr is weak at best. Unless he suspects Sansa is as good as dead which would leave a Winterfell victory with him being "in charge". There's absolutely NO credible way he could believe she would welcome him.

So, will Brienne kill Melissadra or visa versa?

Still no threat from the North. Just a passing mention by Ed which at least acknowledged the ridiculous storyline re the North.


MJ said...

Wow - even the kid playing Robin has grown so much. Though I have absolutle no recollection of this Royce guy. Would love to know just how Baelish knows that Sansa escaped and where she was going to go. Only Sansa, Brienne and Theon knew where she was heading. Just saying.
Loras wasn't even recognizable ! RIP Osha - now Rickon is truly on his own.

Am I right in recalling from last night that Davos never did get an answer about Shireen ? Too bad - would hav loved to see what he would have said or done to Melisandre over that one.

Loved Daario's way of hiding a knife wound ! LOL. But holy crap ! She killed every Kahl ! That is pretty insane. I mean - she has killed before but always in defense of herself or others. This was just flat out murder. In my opinion she's not one of the good guys any more.

Mike V. said...

@MJ - lol...yes he did! Just an example of how the show is nearing the end (and out of GRRM's hands as well lol). Loved Brienne/Mel but Brienne/Tormund was where it was really at!

@Richard, no problem. Enjoy doing it. Just wish I had more time. Next week I'll be out of town...probably no recap just a discussion thread but we'll see!

Ahhhh....good point with Jaime being the Dad....we don't know if tommen knew. Myrcella knew but maybe he didn't. I do wonder if the Tyrells will work with the Sparrow or the Lannisters. The Lannisters were once allowed into the Red Keep as friends and they sacked the city (rob's rebellion).

1.) If the Mountain is going against who we theorize he might...I don't think he will win. (I still wonder how that person would end up in King's Landing though)
2.) Isn't the secret basically out already?? Stannis sent ravens anywhere...and the public of King's Landing already believe it. What would the Sparrow provide...proof?

I use book purist generally. lol I don't think fans of the show without book knowledge would think twice about Dany being able to survive fire. They've showed on multiple occassions that fire does not affect her. The burning bath in season 1, touching the burning dragon eggs in season 1....surviving the pyre (also in the book obviously but dragons were there too) and endless repetition of her being "THE UNBURNT". It's basically part of show mythology...which is why I said Book Purist. It's a little disappointing, but it certainly was a well put together scene and a good way to unite the Dothraki hoards in a short amount of time to move on to other things.

We'll see on Yara. I don't think it would've made sense to have Euron in that scene with Yara and Theon's reunion. It was an interesting episode with 3 sibling relationships on display and the women being the authoritative figure (Yara/Theon, Sansa/Jon, Margaery/Loras, I guess you could add Cersei/Jaime too)

Agreed on Tyrion...I didn't speak much in the recap but I wonder how Dany will react to him making these moves in the Queen's name. I think they're the more sensible moves given the chaos but Dany won't like it at first. But it may give her the freedom she needs to leave Slaver's Bay and get to Westeros since she has 7 years to come back and enforce them upholding their end of the bargain.

Mike V. said...

Brienne actually mad reference to things being in the past didn't she? (aka BYGONES?)....but she also did say she'll never forget. I don't think Brienne is trying to be a leader. lol She never intended to be one. I'm going to guess that Jon is going to unite the houses of the North (not Umbers and Karstarks obviously...well maybe eventually) with the wildlings and possibly even the Night's Watch...we'll have Melisandre endlessly having Jon's ear telling him of his higher purpose....and Bran will have his visions and somehow communicate with Jon on who he is and what's coming...and it'll all build up to having Dany's huge army and Jon's huge army ready to take on the threat from the North. Pieces have to be put into place. So if you're looking for a purpose that's the best I can come up with. I think Kit Harrington has improved immensely over the course of the show...and I've always been a fan of the Jon Snow has a majority of the fandom given the obsession over finding out if he'd be back this season. But, I'm used to you having a rare opinion! lol

Ramsay may have more than 5000 men also....Sansa doesn't know about the Umber/Karstark union. There are other houses in the North loyal to the Starks...and then there are the knights of the vale. I'm sure you didn't watch previews but there was a tease for a Sansa/Littlefinger scene that speaks to what you're bringing up.

Brienne/ idea. I would guess that they'd end up fighting for the bigger cause for now.


The threat from the North is coming soon. And if you want to know how...just reread my comments above. lol (and watch the preview for next week)

Mike V. said...


Royce - He was in the last couple seasons when there were Vale scenes. He was in the "hearing" scene when Littlefinger was being questioned about Lysa's death....Sansa came in and called him out in particular for remembering him from childhood. And he was in last season where Littlefinger left Robin in his care to make him a warrior (not going so well!! lol) Baelish spoke to his sources giving him the information. He and Varys all have their sources in Westeros to get information and stay 1 step ahead of everyone. And even the Boltons suspected Sansa was heading towards Castle maybe his source is in Winterfell.

Davos never did get an answer from are correct.

It was murder...but Dany also was threatened by the Khals to be raped and all of that. She did slay the masters in Astapor too when she got the unsullied.

Mike V. said...

EW Links:

Emilia Clarke (Dany) about her scene:

Sophie Turner (sansa) about the reunion:

EW Hibberd Recap:

Mike V. said...

Hmmm..reading the Sophie interview...I didn't remember Jon Snow being in the lineup waiting for the king, but maybe he was. So I guess they did have 1 scene together before. But they never really spoke to each other on the show. lol

Anonymous said...

1. I'm sticking to my theory of the Dorne gals poisoning the Mountain.
2. Tommen not being a Baratheon--If that were well known he wouldn't be King and he wouldn't be wearing a Baratheon crown. So, I don't think but very few know.

Great point on the sister/brother stuff. Yea, the women are coming to power. At this point the only guys in true power are Ramsay and the Night King.

Good point on the battle of the bastards, aka the North--lol And on how the show will unfold(still don't like them leaving CB due to threat). I like the idea of a battle for the North juxtaposed to the collapse of Lannister rule of KL. I just don't want to loose Jamie/Cersei--you know they have top billing as the credits roll--I think. Maybe I'm wrong and Cersei will beat them all, including the Dorne gals which will leave a Cersei/Sansa fight for the future. Lots of drama their to reconcile(or not)--lol. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a Cersei/Sansa fight. So, that means #1 above is possibly wrong.

Noticed the Vale in the opening last night. ARe they changing the cities in the opening or is my memory failing me?

The book character seems different than the show character. Especially how this guy portrays it. He just seems very weak compared to the book character. Good point on a resurrected person not being the same and the North,etc.

So, Jorah's condition seems like it will have bigger meaning going forward and I"m thinking beyond just dying.

I wondered about that too--what will Dany think about what Tyrion did? I'm thinking she has matured and will appreciate his ability to navigate politics. IE, it's one thing to conquer and another to rule.

Have you come on board with my theory that she will become the big cheese for Esos? I will admit after last night she seems to want to fight for bigger gains. But, Bravos is a big deal--I can't recall if they are a slave city though. Additional thought--Jorah, stone men and her family history going back to ancient Esos. Something just needs to happen with that. For one thing, Valyrian swords come to mind.


Anonymous said...

BTW, after JOffrey and now even Petyr I don't think Sansa will have any use for a husband. I see her ruling on her own.

So, re the battle of the bastards-- who will the Frey's fight or are they too far South?


Mike V. said...

1.) Not a bad theory and plausible. They have to play a part somehow. I just like the other theory we were discussing last week even though it's less plausible. lol
2.) I think the rumor is well known it just hasn't been proven by anyone and he still holds the throne anyway and the Lannisters aren't giving it up. Olenna knows the rumor and publicly speaks about it...but she still doesn't do anything about it.

Winterfell is fairly close to Castle if Jon has to go somewhere to "find himself" at least it's not to Dorne. lol

I really think Cersei will stay on this show until Arya can kill her. I have heard theories of who might come off Arya's list this season. I'll put it down in spoilers/speculations for those who want to read. Sansa facing off against Cersei makes sense too, but for some reason I'd rather see Arya do it. lol

Opening Credits - They do change based on certain locations featured in the episode. Wintefell, Kings Landing, The Wall and "where Dany is" is ALWAYS featured on the credits. Everything else changes. Sometimes it's consistent for large portions of a season. For fans got excited when we saw THE TWINS pop up in the Red Wedding episode.

You think so on Jorah? You think he'll go full Stoneman? Guess it's possible.

I think you're right about Dany and I think the same...but I think her initial reaction won't be a pleasant one. But Tyrion has to prove himself to her and this will be the way to do it.

I'm not ruling out your theory on Dany conquering Essos...obviously she has a lot of support in her corner now to do something like that. But, I don't think we're going to see her raiding the whole continent to delay her going West. She has control on Slavers Bay, Vaes Dothrak.....the only other places they've shown us on the show are Qarth, Braavos, Pentos and Volantis....I don't know if we're going to see her go to all of those places before she heads West. So we'll see.

And yes...there's Valyria...but no one but Stone Men live there....I see where you might be going with that. They might end up needing the Stone Men in the bigger fight. We'll see!

Mike V. said...

*****Potential Spoiler Discussion*******

Forgot to post this. Rumor has it that Walder Frey may return this season...and he all of a sudden is an addition on Arya's list. (which the list seems to be shortened each season to focus on specific characters) There's a chance she may make a trip to the Twins before the end of the season to pay ol' Walder a visit!

And being so close to the riverlands it wouldn't be a surprise if they brought another Frey killer back into the fold! lol (still holding on hope) This might be a Stark Redemption season when all is said and done.

Anonymous said...

Stark redemption. Well it's MORE than a safe bet that Ramsey will be taken off the map and Winterfell returned to the Starks. Probably a lot earlier than you thought.

I get the ARya/Cersei idea. But, so much is different than the books. I think you're right about the North(more than Winterfell) being "captured" by the Starks. I've said for over a month that Ramsay would loose Winterfell this season. So, after an army wins those battles, what's next. That leads to my thoughts re KL. Also, the Dorne gals have to have something to do--lol. And revenge on Oberyn's "killer" just make sense. Of course the Ironborne may get involved in this Westeros roll up, but for some reason I don't think so.

BTW, where's Sam! That storyline like the one from the TRUE North needs more action.

Well known, I don't think so re the Tommen rumor. But, certainly known by many key individuals. There is every reason for Tommen to be held up by the Tyrrels as long as their daughter benefits. Same is true for several people. So, the knowledge isn't harmful to Tommen by those who currently know within the KL power circles. BUT, the faith militant don't care about power circles/position and may want the chaos if threatened. I don't know what % of KL is in that group. I suspect the Sparrow threatened to expose Tommen to ALL of KL if Tommen acted against him and that's why Cersei is ready to move now. Recall that the Sparrow had everyone leave. That way he could threaten Tommen without exposing what the secret is.

BTW, I think Ramsay will die an ugly death via Brienne. You know Brienne kind of reminded me of a dog in this ep, a guard dog. LOL, come on that's funny. I'll be kind and not point out the double entendre.

Also, I couldn't tell if there was an attraction between Tormund and Brienne or if it was just good ol' adversarial sizing up.


MJ said...

The threat of rape ended once they found out she'd been a Kaleesi is my recollection. I have always like Jon Snow and Kit Harrington. True about the masters - but they were horrible people. Dothraki are harsh - but they are just following their ways and religion.

I think it is very well known that Cersei and Jamie have a relationship - even Tywin alluded to it one time. Not sure how well known that her kids are Jamie's though.

Mike V. said...

I think just based on how things were going this season I imagined it ending with Ramsay being taken off the map. As for Stark redemption...I don't think I expected them to be back in control of Winterfell until the end of the story maybe. So yes, that may be sooner than expected if it happens.

I think they're clearing the decks before the FINAL BATTLE comes to Westeros. There's a chance the High Sparrow will get control in KL. That could provide some interesting conflicts. Iron born I think we figured out what they're doing this season. (Of course we're almost halfway through "this" season)

I don't think we're going to get a LOT of Sam this season (i.e. we'll get just enough). He'll probably get to the citadel by the end of the season. Or he'll get the information he needs from the citadel by the end of the season. He's gotta stop home first to drop off Gilly and little Sam too. There just isn't enough time to service every story. And most people get bored of TOO MUCH Sam and Gilly. Even if Sam's story is probably very important to the end game.

Tommen Rumor - So you didn't hear people calling Joffrey Names on the streets of King's landing after they dropped off Myrcella on the boat to Dorne in season 2? (Where the hound saves Sansa) They knew the rumors. These same people yelled names at King Tommen last season when he went to the steps of the Sept to confront the High Sparrow. The RUMORS are public knowledge. It's why The High Sparrow knows Cersei is withholding more sins that she didn't confess last season. I still can be on board with TOMMEN being shielded from these rumors and the Sparrow telling him about them. And even if the public has heard the rumors there is no evidence that they're true. Even Tywin didn't believe the rumors until Cersei confessed that they were true to him in the season 4 finale.

I love how you make these Brienne comments where you seem to think she should be played as if she's some graceful beautiful female. Gwendolyn Christie is playing the role as described in the books!! Anyway, I don't think she'll get to kill Ramsay. There are too many opportunities for other people to take out Ramsay and make it more satisfying. Sansa, Jon, Theon (not sure how he'd get back)....we'll see!

Definitely attraction between Tormund and Brienne...and it was hilarious. People have been bringing up how Tormund's claim to fame in the books is that he mated with a bear or something. lol And we know Brienne had run ins with Bears and there is the song the Bear and the Maiden Fair. This is completely show made, but it's hilarious and very fitting.

@MJ - Oh no...once dany said she will rule all of the Dothraki to the "promised land" in THIS episode had Khal Whatshisface ranting off threats again of how they're going to defile her. She still didn't seem to be in any immediate threat of danger, but she was basically their prisoner. I'm not going to say it wasn't murder, but it's not like they were completely innocent.

Anonymous said...

Brienne--I'm glad you love how I make those comments--lol. I like to try my hand at comedy re her. Also, again, it's her lack of athleticism, I didn't say grace. A great sword fighter needs it and she's lacking every bit of it. Again, Laghertha on Vikings is a legit black belt and moves like it. She's great. Goes to the heart of credibility. If she were a lousy wannnabe then they are playing the part right. For decades I have practiced various forms of martial arts and fighting and so for me it's just silly. I have won some national contests and even beat the 1968 silver medalist in mid 70s. I just recalled a GREAT example of which I'm speaking--Syrio training Arya. Consider those 2 juxtaposed and there you have it--opposite ends of the spectrum.

OH, you're talking RUMOR. Sure, there's always rumors people spread. But, there's no proof. The last one that was getting it was killed. But, the people who have more than rumor don't want Tommen taken down. Rumor is not knowledge, if it were many of our politicians would have been kicked out of office. If there had been proof for years then others could have taken the thrown for themselves. Hard for a fraud to call the banners in.

Tormund and Brienne--I'm really having a hard time seeing those two go at it. I don't think we'll see any of that action--lol. So, would it be mean to Tormund or Brienne to be pulling for that--lol?

Definitely, NOT enough eps and going into half way and very little of some meaty stuff. I won't repeat myself.

It would be interesting if Jon(I mean Sansa-lol) wraps up Westeros while Dany wraps up Esos before she comes to Westeros. Then you'd have 2 very good sized armies opposing each other for big stakes. And a little ice and fire.


Mike V. said...

Brienne - Yeah...I still don't notice the athleticism thing...but I do notice one giant difference between Lagertha and Brienne. One is easy on the eyes and the other one is intentionally not. She's supposed to be a brute oaf of a woman. Granted, a good sword fighter but not graceful and not lady-like. Lagertha isn't very lady like either...but she can be when she wants to. I guess I see your point a little bit. But, I still enjoy Gwendolyn's performance as-is, and the majority of fans do as well.

Syrio training Arya is a good example, but that's also a minor character. They probably got an actor that has some good sword fighting techniques and has practiced the art. I could look him up on IMDB but don't feel like it. lol Brienne, they probably were going for her ability to perform a larger role over her actual sword fighting techniques. She'd have to learn some moves of course, but they can fill in a lot of the rest with stunt doubles. I dunno...there's just more to these performances than just the actual skill of fighting and most people would not observe what you observe....not being close to it. That's like me judging an actor for his pretend piano playing skills when I know they're not hitting the right keys to make the notes and chords being played in a show or movie. lol Try and argue that analogy! lol

Tormund/Brienne - No...i don't even think it needs to be seen....just having those 2 attempt to flirt and be interested in each other....or even funnier tormund being interested and Brienne not even picking up on it would be hysterical. They need some comic relief in that storyline. But, you know, they did give us Tony/Carmella scenes at least once a season on Sopranos....and they did show us 400 year old Melisandre in all her glory. So nothing is off the table! lol

You don't have to repeat yourself on # of eps. I think we've both argued our arguments in detail.

Are you suggesting the White Walker threat is taken care of BEFORE Dany arrives? Talk about the biggest opportunity to subvert expectations. No Dragons vs. Ice Zombies? lol It would be interesting if Jon and Dany opposed each other at first before realizing they're fighting for the same side. Another interesting thing of note...while King's Landing has been aware of Dany's growing reputation, I don't think there has been any talk of her on the show up North. Jon never mentioned knowledge of a Targaryan girl with dragons across the sea. In the books we had Maester Aemon that had some knowledge and was calling out for Dany or telling Sam about her on his death bed. That didn't happen in the show.

Rumors - Well how exactly would Sparrow PROVE that Tommen is a child of incest without someone actually confessing it? It's not like they have Westeros DNA Division! They just go by hair color! lol

Anonymous said...

Sparrow could prove it with the book of genealogy that Ned had.

No, not saying white walkers vs jon first then Dany. I'm saying Westeros south of the wall for Jon/Sansa while Dany taking care of Esos. THEN Dany comes over--that's what I thought you were saying. The problem with that is keeps the white walkers sitting on the burner too long for me.

Mike V. said...

Sparrow - So I had a big duh moment listening to the EW podcast last night on my commute home. Basically they were joking about not fully comprehending Jaime/Cersei's plan and the fact that any time a plan is provided in that much detail on a show it almost always fails. lol Anyway...James summed up Cersei's motivations being that Tommen learned that Margaery agreed to do the Walk of Shame due to her meeting with Loras. So basically, we were meant to tie all the scenes together. Tommen talked to High Sparrow AFTER Margaery met with loras and then agreed to do the walk. Tommen shared this info with Cersei...which caused Cersei to make her moves....she knew she could get Lady Olenna on her side to remove the Sparrow as a threat due to Margaery's situation.

Meanwhile...this is all probably the High Sparrow's grand plan in the first place.

As for Dany/Jon stuff...okay...I must've misunderstood that you were just responding to my stuff....Yes that is what I was saying. Jon rallies the troops here and takes back Winterfell...Dany creates an army over there and comes West...the White Walkers move south.

You have to just consider the White Walkers as the FINAL threat of the story...and will come in to play at the END. I think we may start to see that at the end of this season.

Anonymous said...

Well, Tommen talked to the Sparrow before Margery with Loras as it was broadcast. So, I don't get how there is a time switch on a legit basis. And I would be really disappointed since that would be a trick move for a show that's already complicated.

True that well documented plans don't always go well. BUT, Rob's did--until they didn't. Stannis's did--until they didn't. Consider Blackwater Bay battle--both sides had a grand plan--one side won so that plan worked out for the Lanisters. OK, I know, it was Tyrion's and he's not there. In this case, it's not a battle plan, it's a rescue plan. Battle is forbidden by Tommen. Maybe the Sparrow will pick a fight since he has superior forces? In that case, the high council isn't doing there job re intelligence. I could see where at some point they wish they had Varys and his little birds--lol

Sparrow's grand plan--to have a battle? Maybe, but he must think he's got HUGE numbers AND maybe he does. I keep wondering about how many followers there are.

LOL, yea, the show doesn't care what I think re the white walkers. It's true that we should see them before the end of the series--lol.

Everybody talks about the huge budget and they can't do but 10 eps but then later as an excuse all you hear is that there's not enough money for dragons and white walkers. IMHO--they could change some of where they put their money. I hear from several that too much time is spent in areas that are less exciting.


Mike V. said...

Not well documented plans. It's more TV structure...if the plan is laid out for a television audience way in advance of it happening they tend to always fail or not go as planned.

Tommen talked to Sparrow on TV yes...but they made reference to "MULTIPLE MEETINGS" with the sparrow in this week's episode.

No...I'm saying the High Sparrow is probably anticipating Tommen went to his mother so he'll be prepared for an attack.

I said the end of the season with the white walkers not the series! lol But yes definitely by then!

Their budget increases every year.......I don't think they're stalling with the white walkers...I never expected multiple seasons of Man vs. White Walkers...I think it's all by design.

Anonymous said...

Enjoy the trip.

So, for your consideration on the A+J=T theory. I wonder why T doesn't have whiter hair on the TV show?


Anonymous said...

My daughter gave me a very different perspective on the show today. She loves Arya and Dany.

She's looking forward to Sansa getting her revenge on Ramsay.

She also agreed that the actor that plays Jon Snow is kind of weak.