Monday, May 9, 2016

Game of Thrones: Season 6 Episode 3 - Oathbreaker

Hello friends and welcome back to our Game of Thrones season 6 coverage.  Wow, this episode was fantastic.  While charting into unknown territory, this season is also exploring stories I wasn't sure would ever be covered on the show but have been theorized to be vital to the book saga.  We'll get into it all below.

Brief warning on spoilers as always.  I have read the 5 books in the Song of Ice and Fire (and anxiously awaiting the 6th).  While the show has technically passed the books in the timeline there still are some plots that are being adapted from the books in one form or another.  So, I will only address these plots up to the point they have been covered on the show.  In those cases I may discuss differences from book to show.  In comments I ask that any time you want to get into Book Discussion to precede the comment with a "BOOK SPOILER/DISCUSSION" warning.

And with that let's dive in!

Discussion Points

Castle Black

The episode kicked off with the Jon, Davos, Melissandre, the Night's Watch and the wildlings learning of Jon Snow's resurrection.

  • All the discussions speculated throughout the week were in the first few minutes of the episode.  Jon remembered his death, thought he should not be here and explained what happened after death.  NOTHING, there's absolutely nothing.  This is exactly what Beric Dondarrion said after the 4 or 5 times he was brought back.  
  • Melisandre referred to a book prophecy about The Prince That Was Promised (TPTWP).  This might be the first time in the show that it was mentioned.  Basically it's the prophecy of a savior whose arrival would be announced by a bleeding star (Remember the comet in season 2?) and would bring with him a song (The Song of Ice and Fire).  Mel thought this Prince was Stannis, but acknowledged she was wrong.  There's also a prophecy of Azor Ahai being reborn to lead the people through the long night.  Mel uses these terms interchangeably through the book, but there have been theories that they are 2 different people. 
  • Davos gave Jon some sound advice for being alive again.  Doesn't matter why he's back, you fight for as long as you can and clean up S##T.  Jon responded with not knowing how to do it.  He failed.  Davos told him to go fail again.  Who doesn't love a good Davos motivational speech? 
  • Jon's reunions with Edd and Tormund were classic.  Tormund referring to seeing his pecker and Edd asking if it's really him when he told a joke.  And the joke just happened to be another reference to burning bodies.  (So no, the show didn't forget about it) 

Enroute to Oldtown

  • A sweet exchange of plot and character information between Sam and Gilly here.  They're still headed to Oldtown which Gilly has been told is the most beautiful city in Westeros.  Sam informed Gilly that there is no place for women and children in the citadel.  Cue Gilly arguing that Sam would never leave her again.   Sam decided that he will take Gilly and Little Sam to the Tarly residence in Horn Hill.  He has faith that his mother and sister will take good care of them, though wasn't too sure about his father.  (I'm not exactly sure but it has been speculated maybe confirmed that Ian McShane is playing Randyll Tarly. 
  • Gilly indicated that she trusts Sam and referred to him as the father of his child.  Nice detail with Sam being seasick on the voyage as well.  
Bran/3 Eyed Raven visiting the Tower of Joy

I had heard a rumor that this story would be visited in this episode, but I was hoping they would not show everything in one episode.  So, of course, right when it was about to get really interesting the Raven woke up Bran.  But, everything that led up to it had book fans salivating with excitement.  There is no bigger theory out there in the Song of Ice and Fire than the one they are diving head first into now.  Only brief references to Prince Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna Stark which started Robert's Rebellion have been made throughout the series.  And we've only usually heard Stark or Baratheon perspectives on the event.  Oberyn Martell seemed to offer an opposing point of view.  

This scene takes place after Robert has killed Prince Rhaegar Targaryan on the battlefield, usurped the throne and Jaime Lannister killed the Mad King Aerys Targaryan (Rhaegar and Dany's father).   The Tower of Joy is on the outskirts of Dorne and Ned led a handful of his soldiers there for one purpose.  To get his sister back.  The Tower of Joy is guarded by King's Guard loyal to the Mad King and one Arthur Dayne, the rumored best swordsman Ned Stark had ever seen.  The book references to the Tower of Joy basically indicate that the details aren't clear but that Ned and Howland Reed (Jojen and Meera's father) are the only 2 people that survive the events.  The show's interpretation was FANTASTIC! 
  • First off, I always pictured Ned a bit older than he was in this scene.  But that's probably because I'm so used to associating Sean Bean with the part.  But, the guy they got played it well.  
  • Apparently, Ned had told Bran and the other Stark kids that he defeated Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy.  But, the events were a little more complicated.  Howland Reed actually stabbed Dayne in the back when Ned was left defenseless.  Then Ned delivered the final blow.  We all know stabbing someone in the back is looked down upon in Westeros.  Jaime has never lived it down, even Ned Stark berated him about it.  But Howland was saving his friend and Ned was desperate to find his sister.  But, why cover up the story?  Why lie?  Ned is an honorable man, but something went down at this tower that he has never quite been honest about.  Obviously, I know the theory and I've danced around it in recaps and discussions for 5 years.  So, it's probably no secret.  But I'll withhold the info for now! 
  • Other key events that happened before Bran woke up, the 3 eyed raven warned him again of dwelling too long in the past.  Bran also called for his father and Ned looked around as if he heard Bran.  In the books they refer to the trees whispering.  I don't think we really discussed this, but it's the weirwood trees that give Bran and the Raven these powers to explore the past, present and future of Westeros.  The roots of a tree are like Westeros's Information Super Highway and Bran has the power to tap into it.  But, he can technically interact as well.  Thankfully, the Raven did go the LOST route and tell Bran that he can't change the past.  Whatever happened did indeed happen.  
  • The 3 eyed raven gives a little more detail about himself.  How he's 1000 years old and is part of the weirwood tree with roots growing into him.  He did tell Bran that he needs to learn everything and that he will not stay in that tree forever.  
  • I have hopes that they may revisit other plots in the past before returning to the Tower of Joy.  There was a certain tournament endlessly referred to in the books that I'm hoping they touch upon as well.  Any further details would give too much away!   
Vaes Dothrak
  • Dany was at this location in season 1, but on a lower budget version of the town.  We didn't see the 2 great horses at the entrance to the city or an overhead shot of the many many tents and the temple of the Dosh Kaleen.   
  • Dany put on her Dothraki garbs and tried to argue about who she is giving her million titles as again as proof she is a destined person of awesomeness.  Another Khal's widow (Khal Savo was the Khal's name) talked her down into her place.  She basically told Dany that she'd be lucky if she even gets to stay in the temple where she should've come when Drogo died.  All of the Khals have returned to the city for some election of when they'll decide what city they're going to sack next.  (Any bets on Meereen?)  That is convenient that the entire Dothraki population is in one place giving Dany an opportunity to raise a HUGE army.  But how will she recruit them?  Well, she is the mother of dragons, but we'll see what happens.  This is way past book plot so I really have no idea.  
  • Varys was working his magic with his new little birds (which we have confirmed now are a vast network of children that he bribes with sweets).  He found the woman whore that was helping the Sons of the Harpy.  She was stuck in that she'd be killed if she helped Varys or the Harpees.   So Varys offered her a one way ticket to Pentos with her son Dom.  It would seem Varys plans to break up this organization one piece at a time.  
  • Tyrion had an awkward council meeting with Missendei and Grey Worm while waiting for Varys.  He tried to have conversations with them to get to know them and even tried to play his favorite drinking game he invented.  ("I NEVER")  It was comical stuff.  
  • Varys finally shows up and lets everyone know what he has learned.  The masters of Astapor and Yunkai and the slave owners in Volantis have banded together to fund the Sons of the Harpy in Meereen.  Missendei, who speaks 19 languages, says all of the masters speak one language and they must speak it back to them.  Whatever the message is Varys was going to get his little birds to pass it on.    
King's Landing
  • We find Qyburn recruiting Varys' old little birds with sweets only to be interrupted by Jaime, Cersei and Ser Gregor (Fine, they're not going to call him Robert Strong.  Personally, I wouldn't want to either.) 
  • They talked about Gregor for a little bit with Jaime doing is typical mocking.  He wants the High Sparrow taken out, but that's a little more complicated than sending the Mountain in.  Cersei wants birds in Dorne, Highgarden and The North.  If anyone is laughing at her, she wants to know who they are, where they are...basically, wants them taken out and wants the message sent out that no one forgets who she is! 
  • We then visit the small council where Kevan Lannister resides as Hand of the King.  Lady Olenna Tyrell sits on the council who had offered to help when her daughter the Queen was taken into custody.  Pycelle and Mace Tyrell are present too. 
  • Long story short, none of them want Jamie, Cersei or Qyburn meddling in their affairs.  Jaime has every right to be there as the Lord Commander of the King's Guard (Edited, thanks Richard!).  But, Kevan basically up and left with his posse to avoid talking to the lot of them.  
  • And then we have Tommen face off against the High Sparrow.  Did anyone think Tommen was going to win that argument?  Instead, the sparrow tries to reason with him giving him a lesson in leadership that sounds an awful lot like what his grandfather Tywin tried to teach him.  Surround yourself with good advisers.   They also spoke to great mothers for long enough that we have to assume it was Game of Thrones wishing everyone a Happy Mother's Day.  
  • Arya (um I mean no one) continued her training.  She spoke about who she used to be.  Arya Stark and her family.  She was corrected when she referred to Jon Snow as her brother.  She changed it to half brother.  She mentioned that the Hound was no longer on her list when she left him for dead. (Note: We never actually saw him die.  You know TV rules.  It's still left ambiguous in the books too.  If his brother survived death, it's possible he did too leaving room for a Clegane Bowl one of these days.) 
  • We see Arya continuously improving her fighting and other senses while blind.  We find out her list consists of Cersei, The Mountain and Walder Frey.  (It's nice that Frey is back on the list.  I don't think she mentioned him last year.  I still maintain there is unfinished business with the Freys so it seems like the show hasn't forgotten either.)  
  • Arya continued to claim that she is no one and apparently she passed the tests.  Jaqen tests her one more time with drinking from the fountain that has killed others.  When she drank it her eyesight returned but she was reborn as NO ONE. 
  • I mentioned last week that I don't think Arya will ever truly forget who she is/was.  If we recall, she could not part with Needle last season or in the books.  She hid it.  She has to finish her list as Arya Stark.  Has to. 
  • The Umbers have arrived!  We got our answer to why the Umbers are siding with Ramsay Bolton.  Greatjon Umber has died.  (He was strongly on Robb Stark's Side)   
  • The Umbers need help from Ramsay to take care of the growing number of Wildlings coming south, led by Jon Snow (supposedly).  Greatjon's son refuses to kneel or follow any traditions Ramsay throws at him.  But he does offer a gift.  
  • If we recall, Bran sent Osha and Rickon to the Umber family in season 3.  At that time they were strong allies of the Stark family.  But, people die and things change.  And now Rickon Stark is a captive of Ramsay Bolton.  WHAT!?!?!
  • This is totally not in the book, but it aligns with a book story they may revisit.  Just a little out of order.  If you recall, I mentioned in the book that Ramsay NEVER had a Stark in Winterfell. He pretended that he had Arya Stark but it was rumored to be Sansa's best friend Jeyne Poole.  He married her, raped her and tried to deliver an heir to the North.  Theon escaped with this girl, not Arya or Sansa.  But before all of that, he also sent some fun letters up north to mess with Jon Snow.  Things happened as a result.  Things that have already happened in the show.  But, maybe they're still going to revisit.  And now with them having Rickon Stark and Ramsay having a reason to attack the wildlings, it seems like things are brewing for an old fashion throw down! 
Castle Black (again)
  • Alliser Thorne, Ollie, Bowen Marsh and the others that killed Jon Snow had ropes around their necks and were sentenced to death for treason.  Jon is heartbroken that Ollie stabbed him in the heart.  Jon asked the men for any last words.  Alliser gives his usual speech about what Jon Snow did and said that he would do it again if he had to.  He also mentioned that Jon will be fighting the wildling's battle forever.   Ollie just stared all angry and stuff.  You think these guys would still be a little more surprised that Jon was standing there at all.  
  • Jon swung the sword and hung them all.  RIP traitors!!  
  • Edd mentioned they should burn the bodies.  Jon took off his Lord Commander coat and handed it to Edd and said that he should.  He told him to wear it, burn it whatever he wants.  Castle Black is his.  
  • Heartbreakingly, Jon walks away from the Night's Watch and says, "My Watch is ended".   The episode is called Oathbreaker, but technically he is breaking no oath.  Jon Snow died.  His watch ended at that moment.  The Night's Watch betrayed and murdered him.  They were his family.  Why would he want to stay?  Jon has bigger things he is destined for and most book fans have theorized that this will happen in the books as well.  
Awesome episode!  I look forward to discussing in the comments.  I'll leave a few of the EW links to interviews and recaps below.  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you next week! 



MJ said...

My watch has ended ! Does that mean that he is no longer bound by the rules of the Nights watch ? Guessing so. While we did not agree with Ollie - he was afterall just a kid who lost his whole family. Was hard to see him hanging there. Ok - have to read your recap now. ;-)

MJ said...

I hardly remember Bran Stark so can't even tell if this is the same kid playing him.

Mike V. said...

Haven't read comments yet but will but totally forgot. Rip shaggy dog!!! :( (rickons direwolf)

Mike V. said...

Watch Has Ended - That's what many had theorized would happen. He died so he no longer is bound. Of course, why would they try to kill him for leaving since he already came back? Granted being beheaded might be a little tougher to come back from. But Beric got sliced in half and came back.

Ollie - Yes, he has a just reason for doing what he did....but people still think he's a punk for who he stabbed! lol

I want to say you probably meant Rickon stark not Bran that you don't remember right? I can confirm it's the same kid but he hit a major growth spurt since we last saw him. And just to confirm, Bran is the same kid too. lol

Anonymous said...

Thanks again MIke,

Jamie is Commander of the Kings Guard, not Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. You know that, just correcting for recap.

I found the title to at first be ridiculous but then I think it will play more into some future action. Some will say that Jon broke his oath. It turns out that only 4 of the Nights Watch wanted Jon dead, so a small betrayl really. I'm ok with Jon leaving and suspect he's heading to Winterfell or the South. Problem is, he has no army. I suspect the Wildlings will follow though. BUT that raises the question about the threat from the North. It's like the last 3 eps have TOTALLY forgotten about it. We go from huge fights to nothing. Kind of silly.

It was so sad to see Rickon and the Wildling girl given to Ramsay.

So, when Varys went through what was up with the sons of the Harpy it made me feel better about my predictions of Dany taking over Esos. This opens the door for her to just roll up the entire continent. And especially convenient about the Dothraki meeting. BTW, I saw some giant horses in a statue. I think the dragons have likely found a way out since Tyrion unchained them. Regardless, I think that at least drogon is going to show up along with her two body guards and the dothraki are going to appoint her their leader. Then she's going to march on the rest.

OK, so TOJ/Dorne stuff. Didn't the sword fighter have a Greyjoy emblem on his armor? Was I the only one to hear a woman scream from the tower? I wonder why and who it is--lol?
Edard isn't perfect and that's ok. I suspect he didn't want it known that the only other guy who survived stabbed somebody in the back--at least that's what I think his reasoning was.

Arya stuff--wow, you really think more highly of her than I do. When she took the poison medicine to fix her eyes I thought of you and then considered her eyesight may not come back. So, if she's faking about being "no one" then it's an amazingly great job that defies all kinds of magic, etc.

More on Jon. When he mentioned to not burn him I thought about things we discussed relative to Azhor or the Prince. His resurrection looks exactly like the Beric deal, including ramifications. Which means he has no special powers and can be killed again. BTW, can he have children now? I can't imagine him having a love making scene now with those scars on his front--lol. So, maybe no Dany in the future? I thought Melissandre's point on the Prince was important and Jon's reaction was equally important. He was dismissive.

What if the ice and fire refers to Rheagar and Lyana? Not Dany and Jon.


Mike V. said...

You can correct me all you want but Jaime called himself "lord commander of the king's guard". At least I thought I heard it. lol I think you're correct though.

You could kind of say that Arya was breaking her oath to kill the people on her list by becoming no one too. It's multi-faceted.

I don't think anyone is forgetting the threat from the North...but I think the people further south still aren't worried about it so it makes sense that they wouldn't be talking about it. I don't think Jon forgets and I'm sure if he's going to hang out with the wildlings they'll be sure to mention it.

Yeah I kind of hinted towards the same with how Dany will turn the tables. drogon is definitely going to show up. If the other 2 do as well that would be pretty awesome. And yes...Daario and Jorah will surely play a part too.

There was a woman screaming in the tower. Bran saying "what's that screaming?" was pretty much a dead giveaway. lol But, I wasn't going to get into it because we (you and I and most people that know the theory) pretty much know what's in there and I want to wait until they confirm it.

Exactly on Eddard....he covered up what really happened to protect the biggest secret he ever kept. And we are finally going to see that confirmed.

Arthur Dayne is not a Greyjoy...I didn't look at the emblem but he is the Sword of the Morning. And is from Nightfall? or something like that. I know some are upset that he didn't have his special legendary sword in that fight and instead was dual wielding..(which was awesome to watch).

Arya - I don't think she's necessarily faking it. I'm thinking long term here. There is no way she won't finish her list. That's just bad storytelling. But for now, she is no one and the list is not important to her. The show/books had her bury Needle as a sign that she isn't willing to let go of her identity on some level. I don't think she's trying to sell anything right now...she might think she wants to be no one..but something will call her back.

Jon - I don't know the implications of child bearing after being resurrected...but I also don't really subscribe to the Jon + Dany courtship theory either. lol There's certainly potential for it...but I just don't think it's going to go that way.

It's all related....Ice (Stark) Fire (Targaryan)....Rhaegar, Lyanna...Jon, dany....they all have a part to play in the saga. but the definition of the prince that was promised is that he would bring with him the song (of ice and fire) lol

I don't think there's ever going to be a sentence uttered in the book or the show that says ABC Characer = Ice and XYZ character = Fire. lol But the fact that the Starks and Targaryans play a pivotal role in the end game tells you all you need to know. And the fact that there are dragons and white walkers....same.

That's how I interpret it anyway.

MJ said...

LOL - Yes - meant Rickon. i recognized Branand his actor at least but have no recollection of what Rickon even looked like before. I don't feel that Jon is betraying his oath. But he needs to hang around til Sansa gets there ! LOL So are the Dothraki going to be her new army ?? Guessing so - like everyone else is too.

Mike V. said...

I get the feeling Sansa and Brienne are going to just miss Jon in keeping with a tried and true Thrones tradition of Starks never seeing each other again!

I just have the feeling Dany is going to have a whole bunch of armies. All the Dothraki, the unsullied, the 2nd sons, and then whatever armies in the 7 kingdoms will come to her aid. I have a feeling I know one of them. lol

Anonymous said...

From your recap. Note ref to Night's Watch.

"Long story short, none of them want Jamie, Cersei or Qyburn meddling in their affairs. Jaime has every right to be there as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. But, Kevan basically up and left with his posse to avoid talking to the lot of them."

Good point on Arya and her oath.

I rechecked and Dayne's armor had a Targaryen emblem on the chest, which makes sense.

I guess the ice and fire hit in a different way with the TOJ being right there on the screen. Maybe a generation back. Which possibly makes the song ongoing.

So, you're not a Dany plus Jon equals a new ice and fire character-lol?


Anonymous said...

Out of synch with posts.

MIKe, so you're on board with my theory of Dany becoming the Queen of all of Esos now?

Yea, good point on Jon not seeing Sansa. I really didn't think they would see each other until after the big battle with the Boltons.

Anonymous said...

KL-- meant to say that Tommen's position as a defender of his mother and wife are questionable now. Why didn't he take Jamie or his mother with him? I think it's to help a narrative develop in which Tommen will not really fight the Sparrow. I hope I'm wrong. I'm probably one of a VERY few who pull for Jamie/Cersei. They have changed/grown a LOT since S1E1.

BTW,a King can name whomever he wants to his small council. So, after the Tommen/Cersei moment last week, this weeks small council meeting seemed way out of place. IE, Tommen welcomed his mother's help last week which would include the small council. Of course it could be as simple as Tommen didn't communicate his desires.


Mike V. said...

ohhhh lol....I thought You were arguing over "Lord" Commander of the King's Guard. (Thanks for the correction! My bad)

Makes sense on dayne agreed.

Good point on the song being ongoing.

I just haven't given much thought to Dany + Jon. Given the fact that the Lannister incest being considered such a joke and horrible thing across the 7 kingdoms and thus the fans of Game of Thrones (even though they sell the Jaime/Cersei relationship as sincere)...I just can't see them doing it again. But I know the Targaryans wed internally forever. Rhaegar didn't! He married a Martell and perhaps was in love with someone else.

I don't know if I'm on board with Dany becoming Queen of all of Essos. I'm always fixated on her heading West so I just know she will probably uniting forces and taking her battle West at some point. (or I should say I assume)

KL - Based on what I mentioned a couple paragraphs up I don't think you're alone with your Jaime/Cersei shipping. lol But, it is still intentionally polarizing. I don't think Tommen will try to fight the sparrow either. Or he'll at least be conflicted.

I don't think Tommen is really controlling the small council...but yes in this case he probably would add Cersei if Cersei asked him to.

Mike V. said...

***********Speculation based on "The Theory" I'm trying to talk out in the open about*******************

So I wanted to at least get these thoughts out there. I think they cut the story off where they did because the show is still trying to show the Stark perspective of how Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark. I think the 3 eyed raven wants Bran to see that perspective, but then he's going to take him to another event that may show Rhaegar's perspective and even Lyanna's.

I really hope they go back and show the Tournament at Harrenhal where Rhaegar passes by his wife and gives Lyanna the flower. They at least showed Ser Loras give the flower to Sansa at the tournament of the hand so we know it's a custom. But it might even make sense to show something else before that possibly where Rhaegar and Lyanna have interacted.

Something I haven't considered much is the fact that if Jon is their son he's still a bastard as Rhaegar was still married to Elia Martell and had 3 children. (I think 3....that's that whole Aegon plot from the books they're not covering) Not sure if that'll play into anything. But, from the books and what has been spoken about Rhaegar in the show it seems like he was genuinely a nice guy. So I would imagine they'd want to play that up before the big reveal. It might be a season long thread. Episode 3 seemed too early to reveal such a pivotal moment.

We'll see!

Anonymous said...

Oberyn sure brought a perspective about Rhaegar, Lyanna and Elia. He wasn't happy with Rhaegar for a different reason.

BTW, Gregor will be a target for the Dorne girls. I wonder if he can be effected by poison?

So, where do most think Jon is headed and do you think they're correct?

That's sad, I do post like I'm shipping Cersei/Jamie--lol. I thought I was just rooting for the underdog.

***************SPEC WORK******************************8

Great reminder about Jon still being a SNOW. And a good reminder about Rhaegar and the rose. I never thought Rhaegar kindnapped Lyanna. BTW, I always thought Lyann was younger than Eddard, but last week she appears to be older And since she is supposed to be a teenager at the TOJ, it makes me wonder if GOT is going to portray her as older. I think Lyanna and Rhaegar had a thing for each other. And given that Lyanna is giving birth in this ep, their relationship must have been going on for a while.

I read somewhere that Cersei had feelings for Rhaegar btw.

Yea, I'm NOT happy about them not pursuing the Aegon plot since I was kind of pulling for it.

At least Dany and Jon aren't sister and brother.


Anonymous said...

CRAZY thought of the day(CTOTD)

What if the Dorne girls poison Gregor and it hurts him in defending Cersei in trial by combat?

I mean it seems like it's a fait accompli that Gregor's going to win and so much like GRRM to throw us a curve.


Anonymous said...


BTW, I am still thinking through why Varys would burn the fleet at Mereen. I haven't come up with anything that makes sense. I mean it helps the story tellers if they want to involve the Greyjoys but it doesn't help Varys to get Dany to Westeros.

What it does do whether he did it or not is to keep the crew in Esos longer than if there was a fleet. With Dany gone it doesn't make any difference at the moment, but she won't be gone forever and I suspect she'll be free before there are any ships to go to Westeros.

So, why would Varys want to keep Dany in Esos for a while?


Mike V. said...

Barristan also spoke in Rhaegar's favor. Said he's "the finest man I ever met".

Good point about Gregor and the Dorne girls. Though I'm still holding out for a Clegane matchup before all is said and done. Someone on "the worst podcast ever" that I listen to (seriously, I don't know why I put myself through it) suggested that maybe in Cersei's trial by combat the Faith Militant will somehow have the Hound fight against The Mountain. I don't see any way that would make any sense happening as even if The Hound is alive why would he be back in KL?

That said...Cersei wants the birds in the North, in Dorne and Highgarten....there's a chance somehow the cleganes might meet up in all of that. But that's all speculation based on the fact that we haven't seen the Hound actually die. (and other stuff that I can't get into from the books)

I don't know where most think Jon is going, but I just figure he's going to meet up with the wildlings in some fashion. Maybe tormund will catch up to him.

I would think the underdog story would be rooting for Jaime and Brienne! lol


I absolutely never have thought Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna...I just assumed they were in a mutual affair. I thought that was the basis of the whole theory, not just that she was pregnant. Maybe some just thought he raped her and Jon Snow is born of rape. But I think they loved each other. But it's a forbidden affair since he's already married and she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon. Maybe I have thought about it before because I remember thinking if that was all true it would explain why Ned would have to keep it a secret. If Robert ever found out he would've have truly lost it.

BTW...wouldn't Jon be a STONE? (for Dragonstone/targaryans???)

I never considered Lyanna being older either.

I think it's in the books about Cersei liking Rhaegar too....I have to look that up. At one point I thought she was promised to be married to him but that doesn't make sense since he already was married.

True on Dany and Jon.

Mike V. said...


Tywin proposed marriage of Cersei and Rhaegar, but Aerys denied it

Anonymous said...

Something keeps popping up as I read things. TOtH has a good deconstructed and in it he talks about Jon experiencing nothing after death. How that nothingness will be so important going forward. I guess it means he'll be focused on what's here in front of him. The thing is I never thought of Jon as being religious at all or being concerned with the afterlife. So, hard for me to see any real change here.


Anonymous said...

I think you're right about Stone vs Snow. So Jon needs a name change--lol.


Mike V. said...

Yeah...Kit Harrington mentioned in his interview with EW's James Hibberd that that's the most important line he'll say all season. Of course, Beric said the same thing...but it's in his motivation. He knows what is after death making life so much more important. He doesn't want to die but if he does he doesn't want to be brought back again. Check out the links I put at the end of the recap.

Anonymous said...

I agree that JOn and the Wildings will meet up. And I think he'll go to Winterfell. If so, that would be strange given the threat from the North.

So many questions about his desires and motivations at this point.


Mike V. said...


I think they're going to tie in the "pink letter" plot from the books with Ramsay sending letters to Jon Snow. That was part of the motivation for Jon to take a wildling army down to Winterfell and the Night's Watch killed him for breaking his oath. Now that the oath is terminated by death, he'll still march south with the wildlings.

The big change will be Rickon as bait instead of "FAKE ARYA". But where will Ramsay send the letters is the question. I can't imagine Jon will go to Winterfell BEFORE he gets the threat from Ramsay. But, yeah it makes sense he would go there first. I just don't think he'd go without an army to back him up.

Anonymous said...

OK, from the EW article:

" At the heart of it, he knows by staying at the Wall he can’t help the kingdoms and he’s probably going to die very quickly if he stays.” "

I tend to call those guys cowards. He sees no point in defending the land against the wrights and night walkers. OK, that TOTALLY explains why the show runners haven't had any scenes with the terror the night walkers cause this season. They want to give JS a pass on running away from what is arguably the biggest threat to life.

And he was brought back to life. LOL, the intellectual argument that nothing comes after death is weakened when you were just resurrected. I get that he doesn't want to be resurrected again. And there's a solution to that problem, ie the problem of being resurrected. It's called suicide. Nothing in that interview seems based in logic.

So, his hero status just went to zero. I'm sure they'll give him something meaningful to do. But again, he was already living his life with the notion of carpe diem. He broke his vows when he took a girlfriend for example.

Wow, that interview really went down badly.


Anonymous said...

Well, Jon will have his army with the wildings. I think we can agree on that. BUT, you're right about the motivation. I can't imagine him hanging around Castle Black now that he's quit nor can I imagine the wildings hanging around since they want to get away from the night walkers. Just leaves the few poor Nights Watch to fight the good fight. I can't imagine Melissandra and Davos hanging out at Castle Black with so few to defend it. Perhaps Melissandre and/or Davos can provide Jon some direction??

(BTW I got it, the perfect solution to defeating the night kings and to augment the Nights Watch easily handing a victory to the humans over the wights. Drum roll please----
Brienne--Yes, Brienne---she will single handedly defeat the invading horde from the North providing safety and security for all.)

And I could see a raven come the next day.

Another BTW, am I the only one who laughs at the difference in time passage in Westeros vs Esos. For example, Danny goes on a huge lengthy journey and for Jon it's only been a couple days. There are other examples showing how time is selectively compressed or just totally ignored.


Mike V. said...

I think you read it wrong. He can't help the kingdoms IF he stays at the wall. The night's watch will KILL him. He's no coward. Obviously he's going to lead the fight against the White Walkers....but hanging out at the wall isn't the way he's going to get it done.

It's so funny how we both interpret quotes completely the opposite way. lol

I think the other part of it is....he doesn't want to die either. I'm not sure why he wouldn't want to come back again then if you aren't excited by the nothingness. But I think it has something to do with what Beric're less of who you used to be each time you come back. You're not the same. Probably some of that going on. Jon now is guided by one mission....and hanging out with the people that betrayed him isn't where it's going to happen.

That interview was also with THE ACTOR playing Jon Snow not with the writers. Something definitely to keep in mind.

He sort of broke his vows wotj Ygritte...but he was also deep undercover (no pun intended...maybe a little intended) with the wildlings as ordered by the half hand. That was his way in. But you know the vows don't forbid you to be with a woman....even Sam suggests this. They forbid you to father children. The oath has been interpreted many ways.

The interview was fine. I think you just are looking at it cynically which doesn't surprise me! lol

Mike V. said...

I'm not touching the Brienne comment. lol

So I guess you're assuming that Jon hasn't left castle black yet? It looked like, as my son would say, he was "peacing out" right then and there. lol But yes...I wouldn't be surprised if Davos and Mel follow him where he goes. They like to be the angel/devil sitting on the shoulders of important people!

Time passage - It really happens on every show the longer it's on...they shift into necessity of getting characters from point A to B when the plot requires it. I always bring up LOST as an example...It took weeks (episodes) to cross the island and then by season 6 they were getting places from one scene to the next. It was hilarious. Littlefinger last year must've had a magic carpet with the travelling he was doing too. The trip from Winterfell to King's Landing took a couple months for King Robert when he brought that whole entourage. It's considerably less when it's a single or 2 riders. But how much less? It's a very large distance.

I don't think we know how far Dany was from Vaes Dothrak when the dothraki captured her. We know that Drogon flew her pretty far away though.

But're not the only one. I used to comment about it on shows like Fringe all the time. They were flying or driving all around the country from Boston like it took no time at all...really the show was just skipping that meaningless travel to move the plot along.

We don't necessarily know the exact timing of events in the East vs. West. They're surely pretty close...but the fact that Dany is in Vaes Dothrak right now doesn't mean it's at the same time that Jon just came back to life. Martin even explained this in A Storm of Swords preface that he follows each character arc separately but they're not necessarily happening at exactly the same time. Some of the character arcs actually were happening earlier in the timeline (like clash of kings timeframe) to when others were. It's just the nature of following that many characters.

Anonymous said...

The ONLY people of the Nights Watch that wanted Jon dead are dead themselves. He was well received after his resurrection. Hanging out with those who betrayed him--well if they get resurrected--lol.

What "one mission" is guiding him now? PLease, curious minds want to know-lol.

As a logic point may I offer this. For the last two seasons it's been an ongoing theme that the Nights Watch needed to be reinforced. Hence Stannis showing up and various conversations in the South regarding it. So, now with a totally depleted force it's just randomly OK to desert those left fighting. Whereas in the past the view was that deserting them was a bad thing.

I'll bet this is one of those storylines that doesn't go the way GRRM has it written.


Anonymous said...

I can't imagine how he's left CB yet. He wasn't on a horse and hadn't said goodbye to anybody but Ed.

OK, so again, what ONE mission is he on? Could he be going to find Bran? If he's going to find Bran then I could see him walking and already have left.

I get the time passage for the books. But, for TV the difference doesn't go down well. ONe thing re Dany's trip is the landscape differences and how passing over those different landscapes in the past took a long time.


Mike V. said...

Fair point...but I think he feels he served his time and he failed as he mentioned to Davos. They hung 4 or 5 people...what about all of those Night's Watch men that were aiming crossbows at Davos and the Jon Snow supporters? They all agreed with Thorne's motives after he explained it. or at least they were complicit in following through with taking out the Jon Snow supporters.

We don't know exactly what Jon's mission is. But supposedly when people come back in A song of Ice and Fire, they are guided by unfinished business... Beric had to keep following Robert Baratheon's last orders to bring in The Mountain (Ned's order but still), LS wanted revenge (BOOK stuff as of now).......Jon Snow.....we think he wants to save the realms of men. No big deal.

I get your point on the Night's Watch....but I think Jon felt that he has served his time there and is moving on to serve the realm in a way that he feels he can do it better. (This is all speculation) The night's watch has like less than 100 people still there. If Jon stays there he'd probably die again...and he's already died. So he's not thinking like a loyal Night's Watch member anymore. He's going with his gut. And....his feelings are probably a bit hurt too. lol Apparently when people come back they're missing something of their former selves. We don't know what Jon is missing yet. It might be sympathy.

I'm sure you're absolutely correct that these storylines won't go the way GRRM has written....but many have speculated that killing Jon would free him from his Night's Watch vows. I enjoyed the show and the books as complimenting I'm going to enjoy the rest as separate interpretations of the end game.

Let's not prematurely judge an entire season based on quotes from an actor who may not speak to the full intent of the writers.

Mike V. said...

Jon pretty much dropped the mic and everyone saw him. He's out. But yea...I could still see him hanging around next week packing up his gear and grabbing Ghost for the big departure.

I already spoke to his one mission. I guess he may still be a reluctant hero and not think his destiny is to lead the people of Westeros into and out of the Long Night. We do know Melisandre saw him fighting in he'll probably be there eventually. I seriously doubt Jon is going North of the wall to find bran...but I guess you never know. I just don't think he'd make it back in time for any battles he's supposed to be a part of. I do think Bran may find him eventually though if anyone needs to break any news to him. lol Davos spoke to Jon's mission also...he told him to clean up some s##t. lol

Dany - Yes but she's been heading back West since Qarth in season 2. She want as far east as she could and then started sailing back through slaver's bay. Then Drogon flew her somewhere else...probably closer to Vaes Dothrak.

Mike V. said...


For all we know Jon Snow might be the LS of this story and he's going to kill anyone that's wronged him and his family. lol Maybe that's why he waited to leave the watch until he took down his killers.

Of course that sounds a lot like Arya too then.

Anonymous said...

Your last few posts reflect so much more credibility then anything I read in EW.

The Nights Watch men who were aiming crossbows were doing so at the command of Thorne. And fired at wildings, not an unusual thing to do. There were only 4 standing around JS when he was killed.

Jon Snow's unfinished business is getting rid of the invaders from the North--at least that's the latest big issue not dealt with yet. Since he first finished his business in executing those who killed him. He certainly has desire to get back at those who killed Eddard. And killed Rob and Lady Stark. I'm not sure if he knows Winterfell was burned?? But those last issues are from longer ago then the more recent attacks. AND he wants to find Benjamin. I'm not sure he knows Rickon and Bran's situation? Nor Sansa's nor Arya's.


Mike V. said...

Thanks Richard. I do listen to a lot of podcasts and throw in my own opinions with them. Hibberd has basically been "bought" by HBO and the Game of Thrones showrunners so he gets all the exclusive interviews and all of that. But, I think there are still things to pick out of those articles.

The Night's Watch were following Thorne's orders but they could've chosen to be in that room with Davos....Edd went out of his way to say that the people in that room were the only people in the Night's Watch he trusts. Jon may have felt the same way when he returned.

Yeah I think everyone knows that Winterfell was burned and that the Boltons are there now. Good call on Benjen...I still wonder if he'll ever show back up in the books. He knows that Sam met Bran at the he's up to speed on Bran and Rickon...but not Rickon getting betrayed by the Umbers.

From a show perspective it seems clear that his next conflict will be against Ramsay. But, I think it's still clear that the longer arc is still in play and we should get a hint of the White Walker status on coming south this season.

Anonymous said...

If we don't see white walkers in ep 4, then I'm going to be very disappointed. That would be 40% of the season with an existential threat that hasn't even been a part of S6--lol. It's actually kind of ridiculous at 1/3rd of the season and no white walkers.

I think we'll see the big wright vs Bolton battle and some major fighting in Esos this season. Note that I'm disappointed that I don't expect any real white walker action. So sad. I truly hope I'm wrong.

Night's WAtch--most people follow the leader and Thorne took control. The guys didn't really have time to think about it--it was only like a day plus. The inner circle of course is usually loyal even during a fight. There was zero resistance that we saw when the 4 or 5 were hanged. So that tells you that the troops are good with supporting Jon. Jon won an election whereas Thorne grabbed the leadership role. Impossible to tell how the troops would have responded once they got their feet under them. And you can't blame the troops for responding to a wildling attack the way they did since that's how they've been trained forever AND their leader at the time was telling them to attack.


Anonymous said...

Has there been any updates on book 6 release?


Mike V. said...

No public updates. I googled it and the rumor mill is swirling. I really don't think GRRM will release it in the middle of a Game of Thrones season. I would think the optimum time to release it would be in July after the season ends. He missed the absolute optimum time which would've been March/April of this year. I'll hold out hope for some time this year though.

White Walkers - I really wouldn't count on an appearance in episode 4. I don't think there was any expectation that the White Walkers would be the main threat this season. It's been a threat on the margins from seasons 1-5 with the threat intensifying every year. Every encounter with them thus far has been North of the Wall. And I think we shouldn't expect to see them get south of the wall until next season or the last. Like I mentioned...I could see a final shot THIS year being the Wall coming down or something nuts like that.

I know you keep thinking the White Walkers are going to be sailing to westeros...but I just don't have that expectation.....the NIght's watch and wildlings sailed from Hardhome back. It's going to still take them time to get south of the wall.

Did you mean wildlings vs. Bolton? Because I don't think the wights will be showing up until the white walkers do too.

Night's Watch - I can't argue your statements. I fully am aware of those retorts when I made my statements. That said...I think the show was trying to reflect something about Jon fighting a losing battle with the Night's Watch people...even Alliser's final words were to that effect. Jon knows what's right and he got killed for it. So he'll leave and continue to do what he thinks is right. That said...maybe he's also in a position after being reborn that he doesn't care about anything anymore. he's at his lowest and most reluctant before finding his purpose. It's classic hero's journey stuff.

*******Potential Spoilers/Speculation***********

Lots of teasers over the internet are hyping up "The battle of the bastards" and the "clegane bowl". My guess is these people are in on some of the events coming later this season. I fully expect to see the Hound again in the books and the show. And I expect him to face off against his reborn brother at some point.

I'm still holding out hope for LS too!

Mike V. said...

Winds of Winter - Wiki page tracking the publication date and all announcements made:

"Publication date[edit]

Martin believes the last two volumes of the series will be big books of 1,500+ manuscript pages each.[26] He does not intend to separate characters by geography again, as he was forced to do because of the unpublishable length of A Feast for Crows' original manuscript. But, as Martin stated in a 2011 interview, "Three years from now when I'm sitting on 1,800 pages of manuscript with no end in sight, who the hell knows".[27] In April 2011, shortly before the publication of A Dance with Dragons which took him six years to write, Martin hoped that "the last two books will go a little quicker than this one has" and estimated that it would take "three years to finish the next one at a good pace".[28][29] By October 2012, 400 pages of the sixth novel had been written, although Martin considered only the first 200 as "really finished", the rest still needing revisions.[30] In April 2013 Martin estimated that he had a quarter of the book.[31] In the past, Martin has angered some of his fan base for repeatedly estimating his publication dates too optimistically; therefore, he has refrained from making hard estimates for The Winds of Winter's final release date.[1] Ultimately the book "will be done when it's done".[18] In 2012, Martin had acknowledged his concerns about the final novel, A Dream of Spring, not being completed by the time Game of Thrones catches up in its story line to the novels.[32]

In January 2014, Martin’s UK publisher, Jane Johnson, declared on Twitter that the book would "certainly" not be published before 2015.[33] In September 2014 Johnson stated that the book was "not a 2015 release",[34] a statement she repeated in January 2015.[35][36] In April 2015 Martin commented on his blog that The Winds of Winter will not be eligible for the 2016 Hugo Award which is awarded for science fiction or fantasy works of the previous year[37] but he also said he would like to have it published before the sixth season of the HBO series Game of Thrones (which would cover material from the book) airs in 2016[38][39] - A Dance with Dragons was published four months after the publisher announced its release date.[40][41] In Autumn 2015, statements made by the Spanish editor and the Polish translator of the novel indicated that it was expected to be published in 2016.[42][43][44][45] In September 2014, Walt Hickey of FiveThirtyEight[46] and Christopher Ingraham of the Washington Post[47] estimated the release date sometime between 2015 and 2018, based on extrapolation of Martin's writing pace.

In early January 2016 Martin confirmed on his LiveJournal that he had not met an end-of-year deadline that he had established with his publisher for release of the book before the sixth season of the HBO show. He added that there was "a lot still left to write" and that completion of the book was "months away still...if the writing goes well". Martin also revealed there had been a previous deadline of October 2015 that he had considered achievable in May 2015, and that in September 2015 he had still considered the end-of-year deadline achievable. He further confirmed that some of the plot of the book might be revealed in the upcoming season of Game of Thrones[48] but one of the showrunners, David Benioff, claimed that while certain key elements would be the same, the show would much diverge from the book in many respects.[49] In February 2016, Martin stated that he dropped all his editing projects except for Wild Cards, and that he would not be writing any teleplays, screenplays, short stories, introductions or forewords before delivering The Winds of Winter.[50]

Anonymous said...

Yes, I meant Wildlings vs Boltons.

I'm about 33% thinking the white walkers might sail.

Well, you've added to my concerns re the white walkers. I thought the show was supposed to begin focusing and not expanding. With opening up the Greyjoy story and adding in more Dorne and essentially adding another character with the new Jon Snow and adding in more of the Stark offspring activities, etc the show is continuing to expand. So, you're likely correct that we won't see much of the threat up north while we stumble through various character's storylines that many times are just a diversion.

LOl on battle of the bastards. That's good. Thing is Brienne will be the likely heroine.

Re Clegane--I really do expect that the Dorne girls will play into it. I do hope the HOund is still around, even if it's not like in the books.

LOL on taking time to get South--we just posted about how time compression on this show can be significant.

Thanks for the book 6 updates. I'll read them soon.


Anonymous said...

Just read the GRRM book stuff. SEriously, the guy is doing too much and his fans have good cause to feel somewhat let down by his lack of focus. All of those other activities will be there. Particularly since there is a 7th book to keep people waiting for.

There is a part of me that wonders if he'll ever finish them. Given his age and health the chances of the book series remaining permanantely incomplete increase each year.

BTW, I've read where several think JS will meet up with Sansa somewhere around CB next ep. That there will not be the typical Stark "walk by/miss".


Mike V. said...

Greyjoys are a means to an end. I don't think they're really expanding but putting pieces in motion to get other pieces into contraction. lol

The thing about GRRM's story and Game of Thrones is that the mystical/magical element is grounded with the reality element. Once you lift that veil there's no going back. I don't think there's a plan for seasons and seasons of White Walkers vs. Dragons. For starters, I think it would be too expensive to film. I just assume that'll be part of the climactic finish.

As for bringing in's not like Rickon was ever off the board. We've always talked about how we think he might be the one left standing to be lord of Winterfell in the end.

I don't think anything is a diversion though. Stories were in play and need to be played out to completion. Do we really thing ramsay bolton will win in the battle against the wildlings? I just assume this is a means to an end of the Bolton reign too. We are approaching the end game, but need to clear off the storylines that won't be as essential but played a role in the middle game.

Yes but it's different with the White Walkers on time compression. They need to take their time coming south for the sake of story. Plus, there's still a wall between them and the south. (I'm 1% on thinking they'll sail) I'm sure once they show up they'll be in Dorne by the next episode. lol

Book 6 commentary - I mean...the funny thing is just that. everyone just wants book 6. It's going to be another 5-10 years waiting for book 7! Many wonder the same thing if he'll even finish them. That would be a shame because he definitely has his hand in too many things. I'm sure you saw the last comment that he's suspended everything until book 6 is done. You gotta figure after he finishes that...he'll need to take a breather before book 7. And there really is no time for that! Yeah, it's looking less and less likely.

I try my best to stay away from show spoilers (obviously I don't do TOO well lol), but I actually was half kidding about their near miss of Sansa/Jon. This here is a perfect example of the show CONTRACTING and not expanding . If they were expanding they certainly would not run into each other. This will be the first Stark family reunion (outside of Cat and Robb) since season/book 1.

Anonymous said...

If Jon meets Sansa in ep4 then it does show some contraction--I'll grant you that. Just because some fans think it will happen, doesn't make it so btw. I think the show has done a great job of keeping the material closely held.

As you know, I'm a numbers/data man. So, if you count the number of characters season to season which I haven't, I think you'll find that S6 will have as many if not more than S5. I don't think I'll take the time to count-lol.

I think of several stories as a diversion, like the Brienne stuff, the Vale stuff and Ramsay stuff. To me, if it doesn't have a bearing on the main plot line then it's a diversion and time filler. I could argue that Rob Stark's war was a gigantic diversion and time filler. But, it certainly added a lot of context and some meat to the bone if you will. It adds to the feel of the show.

One reason I loved when Jon was up North with the Wildlings was that we got into some meat of the story. Just like when Tyrion and Jorah went through parts of Esos.

Well, we hear that in writing book 6 that book 7 will have some if not a lot done too. I don't know. But, I can't imagine another 6 to 8 year wait going well for GRRM nor his fans.
He owns his lack of focus. In some ways you can see that in his writing too. His great imagination resulting in expanding landscapes filled with diverse complicated and yet many times related stories going on and on.


Mike V. said...

Sansa - I thought you were telling me you read that it's actually going to happen. Oh trust me, there are lots of spoilers out there if you want to find them. There are some sites/podcasts that thrive on them and pretty much piece together the entire season before it even airs one minute. People send in drones to the set and determine plots based on what they spot. It's insane.

It's a TV show...and usually the # of characters involved is the same. When I think of contraction vs. expansion I'm thinking storylines vs. number of characters. We have Dany in her own plot in the East, Dorne conspiring in the south, John and the Walkers in the North, Arya in Braavos, Sam in Oldtown, Ironborn at Pyke. But.....we've seen Sansa's storyline merge with Winterfell's storyline when in the books they are not merged. We've removed Stannis from the game board where in the books he's still involved. Ser Barristan is still alive and kicking in the books. Now we're having Jon's story consolidating into another story. Tyrion is in Dany's storyline (even if Dany is still in a separate location for the time being). When the show started Dany's and Jon's stories could've been told without any impact on any other ongoing story. (almost) Now they're all intersecting. THAT is contracting. It's making the world smaller and focusing on the same thing even if there are people still all over the map.

Diversions - That's just the cost of being in show business and book business. Sure...people want to see White Walkers vs. Dragons...but you have to get there. There are other stories to tell, characters to continue to build. I think you're more sensitive to this stuff now because we're out of book material so you're not sure if the showunners are just making stuff up or are following a blueprint laid out by GRRM. I'm sure it'll all tie together at some point. The Vale stuff will be related to the Bolton stuff. Brienne....I keep wanting her to return to her book plot...same with Jaime...we'll see what happens.

But yes...I'm with you...i loved Hardhome...I loved when Tyrion and Jorah went through Valyria...(note: contradicts my comments about the showrunners not going off book stuff above). But, they are never going to do a whole season of the crazy mythical stuff...maybe not until the end that is. Even then, they'll try to ground it in character moments.

GRRM's problem is he IS still expanding his universe in the books when he should've been contracting. He had a problem with Dany that he got her into too much political drama while waiting for her dragons to get a little bigger and bring her West. Then he had to start bringing people to her. And it's anyone's guess how long it'll still take her to come west in book and show. I had always theorized that GRRM is going to surprise us with being almost done or complete with books 6 and 7 at the same time...but based on his reputation and now experiencing it first hand with the wait between 5 and 6...I don't buy it. 6 will come out...and then he'll get to work on 7 and it'll take forever. AND worst case of all...he may indicate that he's nowhere near finished and may have to extend the series beyond book 7. It's happened before and he hasn't written it off completely. He just writes and writes and then slices up the pages at a logical point to publish.

Anonymous said...

GRRM--in studying him the last year due to not publishing book 6 I've come to the conclusion that he has great difficulty in focusing in all aspects of his life. He seems to truly enjoy the moment--carpe diem. And being asked to do a variety of fun things is just that--fun. And the more of them the better. Which leads to a lack of focus. He's enjoying the ride vs driving the train if you will.

At this point, and it probably reflects undue cynicism, I put the chances of GRRM publishing book 7 at about 15%.

I have said before that I believe D&D will actually establish the various stories' canon for most of the people who are interested. And yes, I am concerned that in doing so their character development will reflect more of HBO's(which many have noted) and their biases vs GRRM's vision. A vision that originally attracted me but seems to be doomed to irrelevance as GOT will be done long before the time GRRM's story is finished.

I'm still enjoying watching what happens but recognize that most of what I call diversions are mostly driven by the corporate wishes of HBO and D&D. And it's why I enjoy most watching the central storylines that are believed to be taken directly from GRRMs story. It's part of why I want to see white walkers and dragons along with more of what is truly GRRMs material. It's also why I hate to see more eps made with more "filler" material coming from HBO and D&D. I'm not saying that D&D are horrible at this, not at all. But, they aren't GRRM and I've always been one to like the original of anything(of things I like) over a secondary source. There's a reason original art work goes for a lot more money than do copies. Consider this. GRRM is an originator an artist, a creator. This is rare. Adaptations of books have always resulted in some level of unhappiness by purists but that's not what I"m talking about. IN this case the book isn't finished and so the "original content" is being done by a committee including HBO corporate directives. Else how do you explain Dorne for example?


Mike V. said...

I explain Dorne as attempted Fan Service. People wanted Sand Snakes...and it was awful when they attempted to portray it. People liked Oberyn so they wanted to give the spotlight to more of his people.

I listened to EW's weekly podcast on Game of thrones with Hibberd and he brought up his gatherings from his discussions with D&D about how much they know about the final story....Hibberd got the impression that George knows the high level plot points he's trying to get to but hadn't quite figured out the details yet. They were "blurry" were James's words. So we are truly seeing D&D and writers' interpretation of how the show should end.

So maybe when we see those high level plot points unfold in the show are the "main story elements" you are enjoying. lol

I get what you're saying and understand. We just have no choice but to see where D&D are going to take us and then eventually read what GRRM had in mind. I'll up the % on book 7 to maybe 37% :)

Mike V. said...

Grrm releases dorne chapter of winds of winter and says he's not done with the novel yet lol

Anonymous said...

Seriously, that's sad.

So much for a May release.

We are approaching 40% done with this season and so any possible pressure for him in regards to the TV season is practically over. So, my expectation is sometime this winter or next year.


Mike V. said...

I really wasn't expecting a May release. I had mentioned maybe AFTER Thrones season 6 was over (like July...that's when ADWD came out), but it doesn't sound like even that is feasible right now. If he's still writing that means it's not ready to be published yet. So yeah end of year might be optimistic with early next year being possible.

I'm not too excited to read about Dorne either but I might! lol