Monday, June 8, 2015

Game of Thrones: Season 5 Episode 9 - The Dance of Dragons

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode 9 of Game of Thrones!  I apologize once again for being unavailable the past couple of weeks to do a proper recap.  I had no idea when that happened that we'd be getting the amazing episode we got last week!  And we still had plenty of discussion about it!  With that said, I always suspected episode 9 would contain some form of the amazing conclusion we got this week.  And it was nothing short of spectacular!  The other moments in the episode were just as important and one in particular will probably ruffle a few feathers.  Let's dive in!

As per usual, I have read all of the books, which is becoming less and less important as we near the end of the written material.  In terms of spoilers, I try to avoid spoiling book plots that have not occurred to my best knowledge in the show.  Once they do occur, I speak to the differences.  In the comments book readers should note ***SPOILER*** or *** BOOK DISCUSSION**** if they are about to post something about book plots yet to happen.

Here we go!

Entertainment Weekly Links:

The North (enroute to Winterfell)
The snow is getting worse, Stannis's men are freezing.  Ramsay's 20 men struck in the night and Melissandre had a sense of wrongdoing.  This sets the course for a pivotal decision Stannis must make.
  • We learn from Davos that they lost 100 men, all of the food stores, some horses were lit on fire and weapons were destroyed.   They're basically stuck.  They don't have enough food to get back to Castle Black and are not in a position to take Winterfell.  
  • Stannis orders Davos to head back to Castle Black and demand more food and supplies.   It's really an excuse to get Davos away from counseling him out of doing what he feels is necessary.  
  • Davos has a touching scene with Shireen thanking her for all of the help she has provided.  He gave her a stag that he made (the Baratheon Sigil).  
  • Shireen discusses a story she's reading of The Dance of Dragons.  (Fun note: The 5th book in a Song of Ice and Fire is titled A Dance With Dragons)  It's basically about a Targaryan civil war where brothers fought brothers and dragons fought dragons.   It was set up as a device for Stannis to talk about his hard choice he has to make, but if you want to read more of the background of the Dance of Dragons you can do so here.  
  • We are well aware what Melissandre suggested must be done to continue winning and for Stannis to fulfill his destiny.  She wants royal blood sacrificed to the Lord of Light.  Stannis has set plenty of people on fire in his quest for the throne.  The show has been setting this plot up to be a shocker since they gave Stannis a heart and had that great scene with Shireen where we know how much he loves her.  
  • But, we now know how much he believes he has been chosen by the Lord of Light to save Westeros.  (Book Talk note:  The prophecy calls to the return of Azor Ahai which legend speaks to him saving the realm from the White Walkers many ages ago.  In the books, there are lots of theories who Azor Ahai might be.  We're not sure how much this will come into play in the show, but it seems pretty significant.  You might not want to google Azor Ahai just yet!)  
  • Little does Shireen know, but she helped Stannis make his final decision by implying she wants to do whatever she can to help her father.  He then asks for her forgiveness.  The next scene we see is Shireen being led to a pyre where Melissandre awaits.  I think we all expected SOMETHING to intervene and they certainly teased an intervention.  But this is Game of Thrones!  And in the end, Shireen was burned a the stake while her parents watched.  The surprise was that Selyse was the one that broke and tried to save her daughter.   Stannis looked horrified the whole time, but with resolve to not do anything.    RIP Shireen and WOW Game of Thrones.  I'm a little shocked they went there!    Granted, it's been a massive speculation from book readers that this plot would happen. 
  • Let me clarify.  In the books there is another sacrifice attempt at the Wall, but it does not involve Shireen.  There is a character that wasn't even introduced in the show.  Mance Rayder had a wife and a newborn child.  After Mance was "killed" (in the books he really wasn't.  It was the Lord of Bones disguised to look like Mance.  Lord of Bones/Rattleshirt was just killed in the show last week by Tormund Giantsbane), Melissandre looked to sacrifice his child.   Jon Snow meanwhile, swapped Gilly's baby with Mance's son.  Jon sent Sam and Gilly far away with Mance's son.  The ruse worked and both children are safe for the time being in book land. But, since we're in a show that is moving forward at an increasingly crazy pace, we had Shireen burned at the stake.   I've read several comments from book readers that don't understand this move by the writers.  She is afterall, Stannis's only heir.  If he truly is supposed to take the Iron Throne, who would be his successor?  There are no more Baratheons!  Well, I guess there are Robert's bastards, i.e. Gendry (still rowing to King's Landing!).  
  • In any case, I'm decided on how I feel about this plot, but it certainly was disturbing to watch as many scenes this season have been.  The show certainly didn't give us time to process it last night as it piled on Dany's story right after!  (Which we'll get to) 

The Wall
Jon Snow arrived at the Wall from the North side with thousands of wildlings and Wun Wun (Giant) in tow.  Alliser hesitated but let them through.  
  • Jon believes he was a failure, but Sam insisted that all of those people he brought are alive because of him.  I would've thought the first thing Jon would've told everyone was what they dealt with at Hardhome, but I guess they're saving that for the finale.  
  • Instead, we get an upset Alliser Thorne, who once again complimented Jon Snow first.   He told him he has a good heart, but that it'll get them all killed.  
  • And let's not forget we had Ollie brooding in the corner at Jon Snow.  Things should get interesting next week!   
This isn't saying much, but this was probably the best storytelling from Dorne we got all season.  But the whole story from start to finished has been a little contrived.  Basically, in the end, all was forgiven and Myrcella will be sent back with Jaime to avoid war.  Well, wasn't there another way to go about all of this then?  Key points: 
  • Ellaria Sand would not toast to King Tommen when everyone else did.  But eventually she kisses Doran's ring and all is fine.  She even talks to Jaime later about it being okay that he loves his sister.  Whaaaaat??  
  • Sand snakes play the SLAP game in their cell.  REALLY???  
  • It won't be just Myrcella going home, but she'll be bringing Prince Tristane with her.  And, he's going to sit on the small council in Oberyn's place.  I can't even tell you if this was in the books, but I really don't think it is.  
  • Tristane is forgiving of Bronn for getting nicked but wanted one thing.  Bronn comes up happy to be freed and asks for pie.  Areo Hotah gives him a shot to the face (possibly knocking some teeth out)   Prince Doran then suggests soup instead.  That was my favorite part of all of the Dorne story! 
If that is to be the end of the Dorne story, I consider it a complete waste of time.  I do like the casting in Prince Doran and Areo Hotah, so maybe they'll come into play in the future.  
Arya continues her role as Lana selling Oysters on the docks.  She was getting ready to poison the gambler and was (WE ARE ALL SO SHOCKED) sidetracked by the arrival of Meryn Trant!  
  • Let's get this out of the way.  If Mace Tyrell is supposed to play a fool in Game of Thrones, he does it spectacularly!  Breaking out into song?  So awkward and maybe a little hysterical!  
  • Arya did some stealthy following of Meryn.  Maybe not so subtle as it appeared he saw her several times.   
  • Obviously, we dive more into how awful a person Meryn Trant is as he grumbles to his subordinates and rejects whores for being too old.  I was worried for a bit that he was going to see Arya and think THAT is the right age.  Can you really put that past the show at this point?  
  • He certainly did see Arya though but dismissed her.  So, I guess this means he doesn't recognize that little girl he once shooed away from  her Braavosi Dance Master in King's Landing (Syrrio Forel).  
  • Eventually Arya was forced out of the whorehouse and he reported back to Jaqen H'gar that the thin man was not hungry.   Very untrue and we know Jaqen can sense when she's lying. 
  • I still guarantee Meryn Trant will see his end by the end of this season and this goes on no book knowledge but common sense!  
The Great Games have arrived.  If anyone still didn't believe Game of Thrones has been taking a page out of the Gladiator playbook, then look no further than this final setup here.  Danzak's Pit was the spitting image of the Roman Colosseum, and it looked amazing!  And it played house to a very pivotal scene in the Song of Ice and Fire as well as now Game of Thrones the television show.  Granted, the storylines within the fighting pit were a bit different, but the end result was gloriously the same!      
  • Lots of great banter between Tyrion,  Hizdar, Dany and Daario during the first match.  They were jokingly wagering on whether the large man or the small and quick man would win.  It gave Daario some time to flirt with Dany while playing with his dagger (not a euphemism).  In the end though, the large man won bringing a smirk to Hizdar's face.    Tyrion got a great line in calling Hizdar an eloquent man and then saying "Eloquent men are right every bit as often as  imbeciles."
  • But then Jorah showed up in the pit which made Dany hesitate to start the match.  She did though and there were lots of close calls for Jorah.  In the end though, he barely defeated the last man standing.  The fight scenes were amazing, I'll say that but I'm not going to recap them scene by scene! 
  • The most important part is that Jorah noticed a member of the Sons of the Harpy was about to take out Dany and Jorah through a spear from the pit and killed him.  The man always has had her back!   Uh oh, there are Sons of the Harpy everywhere in the crowd!  Innocents were being slaughtered, Dany's council was defending her.  
  • Long story short.  Hizdar was killed thank goodness!   I could be mistaken, but I think Hizdar was in on the Harpy plot in the books.  That wasn't the case here.  One big difference.  Dany actually did marry Hizdar in the books.  Doesn't look like it's going to happen here.   This might suggest that the Meereen plot will be fast forwarded in the tv show.  Hizdar does not die in the books and actually sets forth one more Meereen plot that follows the climactic moment of this episode, season and series.  We shall see! 
  • We also see Tyrion save Missendi which was a nice bonding moment for the two of them.  Look out Grey Worm, the imp is moving in on your girl!  (just my bizarre speculation, not in the books)  
  • There is lots more fighting until Dany, Jorah, Daario, Missendi and Tyrion are forced into the center of the pit with some unsullied around them.  (Seriously, where is Grey Worm?  Oh right, still injured maybe.  I could've edited this lapse in memory out, but I'll leave it in.)
  • I wonder how many unsullied TV Show only watchers were waiting for Drogon to show up and save the day?   Was it hinted at enough in the show?  Last we saw him he was hanging out in the ruins of Valyria.  But, they did show quite a bit of affection for his mother.  I'm guessing it came as a massive surprise as it did for us in the books.   He swooped in, ate some Sons of the Harpy and burned the rest of them.   But he also got a few spears thrown into  him.  Dany looked horrified.  She pulled one out of him.   And then she did what we've been anxiously awaiting her to do.  She mounted Drogon, gave the High Valyrian command for "Fly" and flew off!  YES!!!!!  
  • The rest of her crew stood and stared in awe.  Where shall Dany go?  Is she ready to leave this Meereen mess in the past?  If it were the books, there is still plenty of Meereen mess to go with or without Dany (heading into book 6), but we are in a brave new world!   I don't consider this too spoilery.  There is one more Dany chapter left to cover in the book material and I suspect we'll see it next week.  
My favorite complaint about the book A Dance With Dragons was that it didn't have enough dragons.  UMMMM, but it had a climactic moment of Drogon setting an entire arena on fire, and Dany finally mounting a dragon!   Can I say Drogon looked amazing too?  I mean, if we had any doubt that Game of Thrones could pull off these effects, let's put them aside.   I am so ready for Dragons vs. White Walkers if it ever happens! 

So this week's episode was equally AMAZING (Getting an official WOW! from me as last week does as well) and horrifying.   There are a couple more key book plot points still to happen and we're guessing they both will happen next week.  It's sure to be a doozy!  I'll see everyone in the comments.   I hope you enjoyed my ramblings as always and see you next week! 


Anonymous said...

AWful, awful, awful. Shireen's torture, murder, betrayal by many, not just one like a Ramsay or JOffrey, but an entire group is just awful. It's like gang rape, but with the idea of a snuff film in mind on a little girl. But, hey I'm sure not much will be made of this vs Sansa rape. For me, this distracted from the rest of the ep. This should have been an awesome amazing ep. I understand the show runners kill Shireen to show the desperation and commitment of Stannis and the effectiveness of the lord of light(I"m sure will be upcoming). Those things could easily have been done in other ways. This wasn't shocking, it was just awful. We always knew she was being targeted. Stannis is lower than Joffrey or Ramsay but the show runners with music and close ups haven't shown him to be cruel. Torturing your little girl is way worse than anything Joffrey or Ramsay did. Make no mistake, being burned to death is torture. Ser Davos will have a response for Shireen.

I like most have been waiting for the dragon scene with Dany. But, it was weaker than I expected. I loved how she closed her eyes like Dorothy from Wizard of Oz and then Drogon appeared and I loved how she climbed on him with some degree of uncertainty kind of like she's figuring this out as she's going along and how they flew away. But, he only shot fire like twice and was easily hurt by the spears thrown from a distance. I expected much more from Drogon.

I think Hizdar was killed by the Harpies because he was one of them and was betraying them with Dany. The lack of any ability of the "mighty" unsullied to protect Dany was a let down. With or without grey worm. What a plot contrivance that to me was on par with Dorne plot. And thinking about it, the Shireen torture was a plot contrivance on par with Dorne. I know what GRRM says about Shireen in TWOW also. But, given other divergences that's no excuse.

OH, the Arya storyline is interesting to watch and her lies are proving tiring. Those lies, her personal vendettas, and the actor looking way too old now really distract from that whole storyline. Jaqeen is the only one along with Tyrell that made it good to me for watching. I loved it when he told her to clean the body. I suspect that was in response to him knowing she was lieing. BTW, I'm not into all this euthanasia. I can handle it but it's not something I like to watch. Not nearly as bad as daughter torture.

Note_had to break into two posts

Anonymous said...

Second part of post

Finally, we get some info on what Jamie will be up to. Interesting that he'll head back to KL and see Cersei. I wonder if he'll be there in ep 10? Also wonder if Bronn will take along his favorite sand snake.

OH, and on this eps plot contrivances I have to say Jon and the Wildlings coming in from the North seems a little strange given they could have easily sailed to the South of the wall. But, hey that would have avoided Jon looking at Thorne with sheepish eyes. And that whole exchange seemed so weak and contrived. I mean Jon is Lord Commander, so he needs to be commanding. It's so confusing on how he's being written. He's like all I'm going to do what's right in spite of popularity and then looks like a little boy asking for forgiveness for a mild infraction. It's like bipolar Jon that just happens to display whatever dramatic effect the show runners want regardless of the character's personality/position. I kind of give the show runners a pass for these kinds of horrible exchanges believing it to be just bad acting, but I'm not sure now.

One thing occured to me about this Dorne sequence. It may serve a purpose in the upcoming winter and battles with the Night King. I wonder if it will be as badly affected by the winter given it's so far South?

Again, what could have been an amazing ep turned into an above average saved only by the pit scenes including a lot of heavy lifting by Jorah, Dany and Daario. Yes, I put Dany in that group of solid performances. I've not been her biggest fan but for some reason last night she really made a positive contribution to me. Maybe because she wasn't trying to force something but instead her actions/reactions seemed more natural.


Anonymous said...

OH, and so now that Stannis and Ramsay are like the bobsy twins, Brienne may have a hard choice in which one to kill first. I"m not saying that Stannis was ever a good guy, just look at what he did to his brother in law a few seasons back. But, torturing your daughter is the lowest anyone has gone on this show yet.


Mike V. said...

Yeah, I can't say the Shireen stuff was great or even defend it. It was rough. I'd hardly call it a snuff film though! And Stannis's group, while they didn't try to stop it looked horrified by what they were watching. And it was an amazing episode regardless of this scene!

We didn't ALWAYS know she was being targeted, though I don't think it was as shocking as the interview with Dan Weiss made it out to be. We certainly speculated and the book fans did, but then Melissandre suggested it 2 episodes ago. See...I definitely thought this lowers Stannis's credibility with sacrificing his daughter. He has his supporters in the books and show (fans I mean), but this might detract from that. It kind of makes me think more about what the books might have in mind for his character. Because it the show is willing to do this, maybe he is destined to fail in the books.

I agree, it'll be interesting to see how Davos reacts.

I don't know (nor want to know) what GRRM says about Shireen in TWOW.

You have to separate the books vs. tv show when it comes to ages. We have to assume more time passes in the TV show than the books. Certainly time has passed in the books too but not as much time. The weird thing for me is that Sansa still said she was 14 in season 3 when she married Tyrion. Then she all of a sudden seems like she's in her 20s this season. lol

Judging by the previews, which I'm guessing you don't seemed like Jaime might be in KL for the finale (they didn't show him but they played audio that made it sound like it). And with that you have to assume a passage of time...and passage of time means child actors aging! :-) lol Interesting thought with Bronn bringing a sand snake.

The WALL...yeah I wanted to discuss this but just didn't. I actually saw it in the preview last week and wondered "why on earth would John be marching south on the wall??" best I can come up with, Stannis's ships probably docked north of the wall when the army came initially and that's the way Jon went to get them and it's the way they came back. The TV audience doesn't really know about Eastwatch by the Sea and how they can leave from South of the wall and sail around to the North. So, it's a contrivance and definitely more effective. And more in line with the visual of Jon letting all of the wildlings pass through the gates (with different circumstances) in the book.

I thought about Winter in Dorne this certainly would be an interesting visual if they could make that happen! lol Yeah I dunno. Certainly the Martells have a role to play in this story so I think at the very least it introduced the characters this season.

I think Dany has been really good the last couple of episodes. When she is given meaty stories, she delivers. She definitely delivered in season 3 when she took charge of the unsullied. That was an incredible scene. That's really sometimes how you have to look at Game of Thrones, not by episodes as a whole but as a collection of scenes (sometimes not entirely related). And that whole Meereen sequence was amazing.

Though, I don't see any indication about TV Hizdar being affiliated with the Sons of Harpy. I see it as the show killing him off to avoid the next Meereen phase. (which I'll happily discuss on the blog after we get more intel next week. For this week, probably have to dive into ***BOOK DISCUSSION*** mode in a future comment lol)

Mike V. said...

Oh right as for Brienne...I think this action by Stannis certainly may set up Brienne taking him out. I would show no remorse now if it happened. Maybe that's what they're going for. But then they're totally changing the story from the books based on what was being setup for the beginning of book 6. (same with Dany's stoyrline)

Anonymous said...

LOL,LOL,LOL on your statements about TV time. A couple weeks ago you said Jaime couldn't make it to Essos in 1 ep and now you're making the arguement against yourself--lol. I get it and so why I suggested it. Arya takes 2 eps to get to Bravos and Tyrell takes 8, yea it's TV time even if you figure Arya had less distance to go.

I wonder if Gendry will meet up with some key players in KL soon?

Yea, this ep definitely had some TV spoilers for book readers. Next season will have a bunch of them. Since I"m not as invested in the books, it doesn't hit me as hard.


Anonymous said...

BTW, on the above I hope you know that I'm laughing with you on this stuff.


Mike V. said...

I'm not arguing against myself...I'm playing by your rules! If you're going to skip travel time, you have to factor in time it takes to get there! lol With the Tyrells, there's no telling when they actually left for Braavos, but King's Landing is much further south than where Arya was when she went there so it's reasonable it should take longer.

I think it'll be ridiculous of Jaime is in King's Landing next episode...but it's just the nature of TV. It happened on LOST too. In the beginning you had half seasons dedicated to walking across the island. And by the final season, you're doing it within a half an episode. lol It just happens I guess. With GoT being 10 episode seasons, sacrifices have to be made. And don't get on your 13 episode lobby! We already know they work 365 days a year getting the 10 out! And judging by these past 2 episode alone, it shows.

The actor that plays Gendry tweeted something at the end of last season or the season before. "Still rowing!" lol It shouldn't be a spoiler to say at this point that Gendry hasn't been in the books since Arya left that storyline. So, it's anyone's guess if he'll show up again. I would think so though. (But his TV story vs. Book story was a bit different. He was still with the brotherhood in the books)

I disagree that TV is spoiling book readers. We won't know that for sure until we read the next book! They could be totally going on their own. But it raises the questions when they totally destroy any credibility Stannis had that maybe he isn't a key player in the book story. We don't know for sure.

Mike V. said...

RE: Laughing...oh i know you are! lol

Anonymous said...

Sadly, what happened with Shireen is made worse by Stannis becoming absolutely hideous. He was one of the guys I liked and now I despise which is additional grief re the show. YOu can only blame Melissandre a little, Stannis is a grown man and makes his own decisions. I really don't care who wins in the battle over Winterfell now. I detest Brienne and Sansa is again a weakling. I could root for Pod, but they have made him a dweeb. There's no one involved with that storyline that is really worth pulling for now. Even when Sansa makes a comback of sorts, I won't trust the show again regarding her.

Wait a minute, I know who I can root for--the Night King, yea, that's it. I can root for him to lay waste to the whole bunch of loosers. I hope none of the nights watch come in response to Davos' pleas for help. They probably won't since they should stay focused on the NIght King after what happened at Hardhome.

BTW, I've read a few other recaps and comments. Very encouraged by the negativity on the ep regarding Shireen. And some agree with my assessment of the pit scenes.


Mike V. said...

Honestly, we really didn't care who won the battle of blackwater either. We wanted Tyrion to survive and various other characters involved, and the same would happen with Winterfell. Though, Sansa might be the only character we care too much about.

Just posted: Showrunners thought dragon scene would be impossible. I would've thought so too a couple seasons ago!

****BOOK STUFF*****

Didn't Jon send wildlings south with Mance to help out at Winterfell? It was one of the reasons he got in the situation he was in. There's no way they'd get there in the finale who knows what'll happen?

MJ said...

Been trying to get to post all day. Read a bunch of your comments on the fly ! Busy day today.

Holy crap ! She flew off on the dragon ! And they burned a kid at the stake ! What an episode.

To answer you question of the 'Unsullied Tv only watchers' I didn't think about whether the dragon would rescue her after last week cause I didn't know she'd need rescuing ! So a total and wonderful surprise. One of my co-workers commented that maybe she'll just keep going and start her quest for the throne. I don't know what your comment about the one chapter means but I might be a little annoyed if next week she just says 'ok I'm done here. Have your city back and do as you will' after spending all this time whining about how they are wrong and she has to teach them how to be and teach herself how to rule. However - if somehow she leaves cause the North needs her help - that would be accepable. But no one there knows her enough to call for help.

I know they talked about 'sacrificing' Shireen but I didn't think they'd go that far. Davos will be pissed when he gets back. Should have known - Stannis lately was acknowledging her existance and was actually kind to her. Not sure I get Stannis's logic - sacrifice someone with Kings Blood - then you have no heirs since she was your only child. Guess there was just too much going on to show Ramsey and his men attack. Writers probably felt they couldn't NOT go there - but i was shocked. You could see the looks on many of the men there were not happy or comfortable about it at all - but they are too afraid of Stannis and Melissandre to do or say anything.
(Just read your comment on Shireen being the only heir too )

Tyion proved something to Danny by killing tha guy to protect her and Missendy. That was quite the scene - so may masked guys killing any one they ran into - former slave and former owners.

Very tense when the Crows hesitated to open that gate ! Co-worker thinks Ollie might kill Jon Snow. I def think Ollie will cause some trouble - but I don't think they will kill Jon Snow - at least not this year. LOL

Still don't know why that guy that Arya saw was on her list. LOL. I'm just rolling with it. I too thought for a minute he'd ask for her at the whore house.

MJ said...

Agree - Dorne is nothing to be impressed about. We see Ellaria start to defy her Prince - then back down. Whatever. Sand Snakes I'd heard were so awesome are just stupid girls. Tristane gong to Kings Landing with Myrcella could be interesting. If Tommen is removed does then Myrcella get the throne ? I'd say no cause if Tommen is removed it will be because he is not truly a Baratheon. I laugh at your Whaaat with Ellaria saying ok to love your sister - Dorians seem pretty loosy goosey in the morals department.

Richard - most of the Unsullied weren't in the arena it seemed to me. Her army is like thousands of men. As for Jon Snow - yes he s in charge - but only just became the commander. He's had no time to adjust to being a leader. And as his first big decision he wasn't sure that after he left they did not mutiny against him since his decision was so unpopular. I didn't mind him looking worried whether his men will keep their word and let the free folk through. As for Stannis - he's a zealot - they're all nuts. I'm amazed that you are still shocked about what they will and will not do in this fictional world. Were you this horrified when you read it or is it just the visuals ? While I know that in the book Shireen did not get this done to her you guys have said that someone else did. This is a man who had his own brother killed and until he needed her had no use for his daughter. He keeps his mistress/witch right at his own house too.

You guys are so funny on time. It's not like an episode is a day. If Arya gets to Bravos in 2 eps and Tyrell takes 8 it's cause the directors didn't show it for 8 episodes. Cause who cares about him ! LOL Besides - Arya (like Little Finger) took sonme cortexiphan and Fringed it.

Anonymous said...

Shireen is not killed in the books that have been written. So, a shocker.

The Unsullied were not in large number at the pit. But those that were seemd very weak on the fighting front. It was like a one on one battle was more than they could handle. Very weak on their part.

The guy Arya was watching who came in with Tyrell is Meryn Trant. He betrayed and beheaded Ned, ARya's father


Mike V. said...

MJ, not much to my point that there's 1 more chapter for Dany. Just that we're running out of material. I didn't want to give anything away but we really don't know what she's doing after that next chapter either. lol We do kinda know what's in store for Meereen though. Just based on how the book ended and what GRRM has said is coming up early in Winds of Winter. I think what's coming for the show may be different though. We'll see! I might be able to say more next week. There's no telling what they might hold back for next season.

Nice to know you were surprised! With the episode being called "The Dance With Dragons" many people might have thought we'd see Drogon. Then again, with Shireen talking about the book all episode, it probably threw those people off!
I think we all were kinda shocked they did it. I knew it was possible, but I thought someone might intervene. When Davos was sent away, I was less convinced about an intervention.

I'm afraid to say anything on the wall talk for fear of saying too much, so there you go!

I mentioned why Arya has Trant on her list in the recap. She thinks he killed Syrrio Forel her water dance instructor from Braavos in season 1. It happened off screen and off book so there are theories he's still alive. (but probably not)
something came up at work, so I'll respond to the rest in a few minutes!

Mike V. said...

Okay I'm back

I was never impressed by the sand snakes in the books. It was just more characters I had to keep track of. But some people latched on and the show pretty much got "fan servicey" and it didn't work well. Dornish yeah...they're loosey goosey...I get why she thought it was okay. My "whaaaat?" was how she did a 180 with speaking to Jaime Lannister. lol Some suspect she may have another agenda. We'll see I guess.

Good point on all of the unsullied not being in the arena. There are 10,000 men, and they were unprepared in that arena. Well I said there was a similar storyline in the book but Jon actually thwarted the murder of an infant with a baby swap. But yeah...Stannis has definitely done some horrible things and it's mostly because he's under the guise of Melissandre's proclamations.

lol on Fringing it! It's true MJ that it's about important not important characters. But we also spent 3 episodes on the trip from Winterfell to King's Landing in season 1. Granted, it's because a lot happened on that journey but it's also because GRRM was showing just how long a journey that is. Tyrion also took get to Meereen in the books. He only got there by the end and certainly hadn't met Dany yet. he wasn't even in the Pit when Drogon came down. (And since Jorah was with Tyrion, neither was he) So, they themselves have gotten a little more "loosey goosey" with travel times as the show has progressed. My point is, other shows have done that as well. To service the all of the disparate plots, it's just something you eventually need to do to tie them together.

Mike V. said...

Richard, you're thinking of Ser Illyn Payne who beheaded Ned Stark. Meryn Trant supposedly killed Syrrio Forel.

Mike V. said...

I misstated about Tyrion. He was in the pits in the books. He was part of an act. Dany did encounter him but didn't meet him. He was just one of the dwarfs. I'll have to look up that chapter again to refresh! Lots of characters cut from the books lol

Mike V. said...

Watching interview with producers on HBO go after the episode. Seems to imply that shireen's sacrifice will be in a future book. Beniof said "when George first told us about this" when discussing it.

I googled that and found a bunch of articles on it. Probably people thinking the same as me. Lol

MJ said...

I did not know Syrio Ferrel was dead. You mentioned that she got Shooed away by Trent but I didn't pick up what you were saying earlier. So thanks. But this man is on her death list just because he MAY have killed her fencing instructor. Weird.

I don't look at the episode names - i find them to be spoilery sometimes. And when they mentioned Dance with Dragons I did recognize it as the name of a book. But last week I think they mentioned another book name so it still didn't galre at me that we'd see Drogon.

I guess it was all the preseason hype about the snakes that I thought they were going to be a big deal.

I am shocked by this baby swap from the book ! Gilly just give up her baby to be killed to save Mance Raydors ? Crazy. LOL

Anonymous said...

Keep in mind Gilly's baby was by rape. Not that it makes the baby worth less in my eyes. But, some feel a baby by rape can be treated differently I guess.


Mike V. said...

Richard did you see my last post that shireen may be killed in a future book? Like we may have been spoiled by the show. Crazy that David said that!

Mj he's not confirmed dead on the show or book but arya assumes trant killed him.

Anonymous said...


Yes I saw the post. That was the key thing I posted about earlier when mentioning that this ep spoiled part of TWOW. And you said, you didn't want to know what it was, so I just kept quiet on the specifics. If you note, I never said that killing Shireen wasn't in the books and it shouldn't have been done since I had been told that GRRM said it will be in the books. BUT, how it goes down in TWOW is different---don't want to say too much. I have been told more spoilers on the way and more foundational spoilers were in the last EP too. And there are things that were in the books that will be covered next season.

GRRM needs to finish his books asap!

Thanks for the Payne correction.


Mike V. said...

Ahhhh lol touché. So Dave spoiled it for me!

I'm in meetings all day but will respond in more detail later to everyone

MJ said...

Read this in some review

but quickly a whole slew of those annoying Harpy kids in their stupid masks run out into the arena, surrounding Dany and the rest, and it looked like all was lost (visually, I couldn’t help but be reminded of that arena battle in Star Wars Episode II while watching this, from the sandy setting to Dany’s white outfit).

Mike & Richard - I cannot believe that neither of you made this comparison. Cause the writer of the above is absolutely right ! LOL Ok - you fan boys have to turn in your Star Wars action figures now !!!

Mike V. said...

Baby Swap - Oh there was a lot more to it. Gilly was very upset by it all. And it was partially the reason that she and sam "got together" in the books if you know what I mean. She was all emotional and came onto Sam instead of Sam having to save her in the TV show. Also Maester Aemon was on this trip with them and he died during the trip...which added more to the emotion of the scene.

As for rape???...I wouldn't say Craster RAPED his children...he took them as wives. They really didn't know any other way of i would think it was just normal to them. There's nothing saying that Gilly resisted him when the child was conceived. But, I don't want to get into the requirements for rape. It's ALWAYS a losing battle! It's an awful scenario regardless!

Shireen - Did GRRM actually say it would be in the books after the episode aired? Or are we just going off of Beniof's quote in the after show dissection? I do know more book stuff will be covered next season but for a lot of the stories it will be uncharted territory.

If you recall regular commenter AUSTARWARS: I actually saw him post this comparison on Facebook with Attack of the Clones. Sorry, but if I need to compare with the WORST Star Wars movie of all time I'd rather just compare it to Academy Award Winning Gladiator! lol It certainly was a bit similar in execution to AOTC though!

Anonymous said...

Star WARS---MJ, you're right and the poster was right. That scene is similar including the white outfit--lol! But, hey I did catch the Dorothy look from Wizard of OZ. Sorry Mike, but those prequels as we've discussed before are really not that bad and in most cases, good. The Gladiator comparison is probably not as good since that would only be true for the fight and stadium. Whereas the Star Wars reference covers a lot more, adding the masks and Dany in white. I really liked both movies, so either comparison is positive.

AND for the first time in my posting history(I think-lol) I gave props to Dany for really being a big part of making this entire ep good. So, I must have really liked that scene dispite my criticisms of the dragon looking a little weak.

Craster rape, Ok you brought it up with some detail, I was just trying to point out some history from the TV Show. So, in the TV show Gilly was terrified as were most of the girls hence abuse, rape, whatever you want to call it. Please recall they wanted the whole place burned down due to their awful lives that they hated. They hated their situation. That's where I was coming from.

GRRM said it was in TWOW from some of the places I read and not all of them sourced Benioff. As I say, he went on to talk about some of the events surrounding it, which for your sake, I'm not going into. I think this was to justify the scene in the TV show since we all get so upset that "it's not in the books".


Mike V. said...

"I don't like sand. It's rough, coarse, irritating and it gets everywhere!" Runs his fingers on Padme's arm "Not like here. Everything here is soft, smooth." Oh yeah Anakin...reaaaaal smooth man! Granted, the END of AOTC was fun to watch. You're talking to someone who saw The Phantom Menace 10 times in the theater (my bad, 11 times on the 3D rerelease), Attack of the Clones 7 or 8 times and Revenge of the Sith 5 times. I LOVE Star Wars!!! But I'll be the first to admit that the dialogue and direction of actors is DREADFUL in the prequels. The plot concepts are good, the visual effects are impressive (TPM is dated) and The light-saber fights are out of this world. But the movies are rough. Have you watched them recently? I forget if you have. I just watched TPM recently with my son. (yeah he's 3...i don't care. He's so into Star Wars right now I love it!!) That podrace goes on FOR....................................................................EVER!!!! Jar Jar is unbearable (my wife taught my son to tell me his favorite character is Jar Jar Binks. He thinks it's hysterical....but even he was watching Phantom Menace and told me "Daddy, I don't want to watch Star Wars with the boy and Jar Jar. Put on the Snow one!" YESSSS!!!!! That's my boy!!)

Obviously the Gladiator Comparison doesn't work as well for the comparison of Drogon entering the battle like the Clones did. But Maximus certainly found him in a situation where they were in the middle and surrounded. They stuck together until they overtook the people on chariots. If you have to rank 6 Star Wars has to be the worst. Even if I like Attack of the Clones...I still consider it the WORST of the 6. So that makes it the worst of all time! Unless you include the Ewoks movies. lol (Not Return of the Jedi...there's another one. I almost forgot it/they existed!)

Like I said...there is no good coming from trying to clarify what is or what is not rape! I'm out of this discussion! lol

Gotcha on the Shireen stuff. I obviously know some big high level plot points coming in the books because GRRM has talked at length about them. But if George is talking about this stuff then I might stumble into it. But yeah there's no point in bringing it up here I guess. lol

Mike V. said...

I'll add the Obi-Wan storyline in AOTC was pretty good too. His fight with Jango Fett was pretty awesome.

Anonymous said...

STAR WARS, omg, you have watched waaay more than I. It's been at least 2 to 3 years for me. Good point, there is a ranking of the SW movies.

LOL, I love that story about your SON!!!


Mike V. said...

TV book club discussion:

Anonymous said...

Surely there will be a payoff for Shireen being tortured and murdered(in ref to above link)? I fully expect that Melissandre and the lord of light will give Stannis a victory in the finale if not the beginning of next season. Otherwise, that torture/murder was really pointless and GRRM will have disappointed a lot of people.


Mike V. said...

*****BOOK STUFF (based on speculation)******

Or maybe Stannis loses/possibly gets killed and makes Melissandre lose faith that Stannis is the true chosen one and heads north to "raise" Jon Snow???

This gets into the whole "transportation time within an episode" issue again. lol

And just because it's implied that Shireen's death is in the books, that doesn't mean the show FULLY spoiled the Books. Shireen and Melissandre are at the Wall in the books, not with Stannis. So Stannis may not even have a say in what Mel does.

So you can't just say GRRM disappointed a lot of people based on what the show does without knowing what the text will say in the end. Plus if enough of you say GRRM is disappointing people we may NEVER see Winds of Winter because he'll go back and change it! LOL

Anonymous said...

********************book stuff(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

REally?, you think GRRM will change stuff based on pressure--lol,

Yea, Shireen dies in TWOW but it goes down differently and I WON"T say a lot more because I don't want to spoil the book for you.

Exactly on Melissandre, I thought she would head North when Shireen was NOT tortured/killed. So, yea if Stannis looses she heads NOrth. BUT that would mean 3 things. 1 that she would have been proven WRONG on the lord of light and that should make her loose confidence. 2. Those around her would also loose confidence in her. 3. The audience would loose confidence in the power of her and the lord of light for just cause.
PLUS it would make Shireens torture/murder totally worthless and just gratuitous.

So, even if she heads north that doesn't mean she even has the power to raise Jon.
IE, Shireen's death makes Jons resurrection less likely.


Mike V. said...

*****BOOK STUFF**************

It already sounds like he's thinking about changing stuff out of spite because the show is surpassing him. He's been quoted saying that he's thought up new twists...things the show can't even do. That said, you have to know my last sentence was a joke!! (but a joke inspired by GRRM's public persona's reputation lol)

It's not worthless if it proves that Stannis is not truly the Lord of Light and that his ambition was his ultimate failure. Yeah...I don't know if she has the power to raise Jon either.....they did have that show added scene a couple years ago where Thoros met Melissandre. Where she witnessed Beric alive after being dead several times. She was very surprised at what Thoros was able to accomplish because the Lord of Light never spoke to her/through her (or something like that). Maybe this will end up being inspiration in the show for her to do something in the North.

I'll just say this...after this season I don't think we've seen the end of Jon Snow in the books or the show. It was a cliffhanger in the books. And we're very much looking forward to the resolution in TWoW. The only real question on the show is if they roll credits right after the stabbing or if they'll follow it up with something additional.

Maybe the idea of Melissandre losing faith in herself is actually what causes her to raise Snow (if that indeed happens). Wasn't Thoros desperate beyond repair when he raised Beric the first time?

Anonymous said...

***************8book stuff***********************

OK, so if Stannis is defeated and humiliated after Shireen it proves he wasn't what he or Melissandre thought. BUT no one believes he is anyway so that is almost like piling on which is not a GOOD reason to kill Shireen. Him winning would be better since it would make all of us doubters into believers with some shock comensurate with the shock of GRRM killing Shireen.

But, I don't think if Melissandre is proven that she's a fake mostly that she will be all of a sudden able to raise the dead.

I have been thinking about that Beric scene, you're right it was put in for a reason. I think if you look at it and break it down it showed her that there were powers beyond what she knew and/or that the lord of light has. Which means that she didn't have what it takes to save Jon. If she has obtained it,who knows-- but it hasn't been shown or written about in the books published so far.

Again, Shireen's death, if Stannis doesn't win is a negative overall for Melissandre raising Jon. It doesn't mean someone else can't do it.

Let's wait to see if an exit interview happens.


Mike V. said...

*****BOOK STUFF******

Of course there's nothing saying Melissandre has to be the one to raise Jon. (which i see you just said too)....but maybe no one has to. maybe he just does.

There's also the chance that maybe Melissandre leaves for Castle Black in the beginning of this episode telling Stannis that she is of no use with them anymore. There's also the chance that Stannis marches right into the blizzard like he did in the books and the battle is thwarted until next year. Probably more likely than him actually getting into a battle in Winterfell which could be a 3rd straight CGI intense episode.

I'm going to guess more of the action in Winterfell is Sansa/Theon based with the help of Brienne and Pod. It'll be a twist on Theon's escape of Winterfell in the books. And Stannis will just keep marching. But I could be totally wrong.

Definitely will be looking for an exit interview. It could be a similar thing to when we knew John Locke was going to die on the show but that the actor would still be involved with LOST until the end. We may know Jon will carry on in some form just like we kind of did/do in the books too.

Anonymous said...

BTW, I had Dany right about flying away in ep9.

************book stuff*******************

Yea, I don't think we'll have a conclusion to the battle for Winterfell this next ep. There's already 2 huge events to happen. Cersei's walk along with meeting RS(I hope) and Jon's murder. I also think we'll see Sam leave.

Ultimately you have to ask yourself if Melissandre is the real deal and if the lord of light is the real deal. Maybe both are the real deal but not ALL powerful if you will? Maybe they have different gods with different powers like the Greeks? I was less than impressed with the leaches in the fire trick--lol.

I'm less than 50/50 for Jon to come back as a normal person. If he comes back it is more likely that he will be changed. That I give like a 2/3rds chance.


Mike V. said...

Did you really think it would happen some other time? lol I think we were talking about it last season when we were trying to figure out how they could keep up the momentum that seasons 3 and 4 had. I just assumed Dany and Drogon would be ep 9. Hardhome was the big surprise. Even though I knew they were doing something there I didn't know it would be that massive. And of course, we have a pretty good idea what's coming next episode and we're just going to stay silent above the spoiler warnings! :-)

****************BOOK STUFF**************************

I agree Sam will probably leave too. I'm always asking myself if the Lord of Light is the real deal! I call the leeches trick a coincidence! That stuff was gonna happen anyway and Melissandre had nothing to do with it.

Oh I didn't say he'd come back NORMAL. Obviously this is a milestone event in his story arc. But addition to if the lord of light is real are the prophecies in the book? And how important is it that he might be Rhaegar and Llyana's child? That's a huge reason why I don't feel he'll be dead in either media format. I know GRRM is all for shock and awe and cutting off stories before they feel like they're complete...but to not resolve Jon's parentage while he's alive (in some form) would seem completely unsatisfactory. Ned Stark being redeemed post death for the cover-up of Jon and being a truly honorable man from start to finish...that works with the redemption of the Starks arc that I feel is necessary for a satisfying conclusion as well (didn't say happy...just said satisfying lol). But for Ned AND Jon to be dead? I don't know. He certainly can die after fulfulling some mission of importance, but that hasn't quite happened yet.

Just my theory.

Mike V. said...

****book stuff*****

really opinion more than theory lol

Anonymous said...

LInk with spoilers


Wow, so more Dorne stuff and setting the course for the rest of the show. How can that be? I guess Jaime, etall are taken out so that the Lannisters are essentially weakened beyond repair?? Obviously the letter is from Stannis delivered by Davos.


Mike V. said...


That certainly makes sense that there would be more Dorne stuff....that really would suck of Bronn gets killed that way but it would coincide with something from the books with a different character. If they get assaulted on the road there is the chance Myrcella could lose an ear too. Easy to cover up in future seasons with hair lol

I can't see Jaime being killed off yet. But you just never know with this show.

Anonymous said...

************some speculation********************

So, you have made the case that Dany is fire and so let's say that's true. Who is Ice, the Night King? That's what seems obvious for the upcoming fight for survival.

BUT, what if Jon Snow becomes ICE? I just can't see Melisandre getting up to CB and raising Jon in time, even if she could. What happens if a Targeryan is raised from the dead by the Night King? Is it like normal or would it be different given the bloodlines?

The Ellaria scene with Jamie lays the foundation for again a Targeryan wedding. So, what about Jon and Dany? Him ice and her fire?

I'm doubting if Tormund will be there when Jon is killed. He may already be on his way to Stannis.

BTW, the Cersei walk I was really looking forward to, not so much now that she's all grunge.


Mike V. said...

********SPECULATION and SPOILERS* *******

I don't think i really have made a case that specific individuals are Fire and Ice. But clearly Dragons and White Walkers are destined to meet in this eventual battle. Born of Fire, breathing fire....creating weapons from fire to battle the creatures from the cold...the ice.

We've already talked about this with Jon....maybe he'll become a wight or a white walker. The theory is on the table. No clue what would happen if the Night King raises him. Maybe we'll find out! But how close is that band of walkers and wights to the wall at this point? We don't really know how quickly they travel either.

It wouldn't be the first time I've heard a Jon/Dany marriage possibility....but interesting to repropose it with the Song of Ice and Fire in mind. Granted...Dany can have no I dunno.

Yeah...I'm thinking Jon gets a letter from Stannis or Ramsay (saying he has Sansa)...and Jon decides to send Tormund down...maybe adding fuel to the "Fire" for Ollie to take him out.

I had heard Lena would be using a double for the nude work anyway (at least I think I read it)....she has tattoos all over her body...granted, she could get them covered up lol Hey just be thankful they probably won't shave her head like in the books!

Anonymous said...

We know that Davos is delivering a letter from Stannis to Jon asking for help. It will be intersting if he makes it in 1 ep--lol.

YOu know, watching the wights come across Hardhome, they moved VERY quickly. Very fast indeed. But, maybe that's TV speed--lol. So, they can outrun a horse at full gallop when convienent but kind of ploddy when needed for plotlines to unfold??? And wights don't wear out, need food, etc.

**********book stuff**********************8

What do you mean that Dany can have no heirs?

A Lena body double, that's just not right--lol. I understand she's done lots of shots like this in her past. Which is kind of strange because with all the sex she's had on the show, she's the only one that hasn't been nude. Maybe she got all tatooed so she wouldn't have to anymore??


Mike V. said...

1 person can move more quickly than 1 army! (that applies to Davos AND wights lol. But I was speaking more of the White Walkers and not the wights. But I guess they're a package deal lol)

**********book stuff**************

I think she's always had the tats. I could be totally wrong on the body double. Probably googleable. lol

Dany, at least in the books, lost her ability to bear children when she tried to save Khal Drogo and lost her child. Not sure if it's applicable in the show too.