Monday, June 1, 2015

Game of Thrones: Season 5 Episode 8 - Hardhome (Discussion)

Hello everyone and welcome back to our Game of Thrones season 5 coverage!  As noted, this is the 2nd week in a row where I have a conflict with doing a full scale recap.  I will be back in full force next week for the remaining 2 episodes of the season.  But, we can still discuss the episode below and I'll be sure to add my thoughts as soon as I can.  Thanks for your understanding and see you in the comments!


Anonymous said...

I copied from the earlier EP7 comments section.

Finally, a great ep.

So, looks like Jamie's not going to Essos, still don't know what he's doing. Cersei is waiting for him.

I'm saying the sword Jon used to kill the Walker is Valyrian steel. Given the dragon glass comes from the old Targeryan city too. OH NO, that means Brienne will be a heroine in battling the Walkers, ugh. Hopefully she'll be killed and Ramsay will take her sword--lol.

Speaking of Ramsay, any bets on his mission taking out Stannis?

3 huge things yet to come.


Anonymous said...

OK, I read EWs recap, lol. He calls dragon glass a metal.

He got the Valyrian sword right, but he doesn't make the connections I did earlier.

I guess I should say something about Dany and Tyrion. For me, it was as expected and that's good in this case. And I love that he pointed out what I'Ve been saying--deal with Essos, you don't need Westeros. But now I see she doesn't want the Iron Throne, she wants to break the wheel. To me, this relates back to when she wouldn't touch the Iron Throne when she was in that house(btw, I wonder how many professional recappers will pick up on that--lol). So, what type of government does she want to put in place? Wait until she meets the HIgh Sparrow and his form of government.


Mike V. said...

Awesome episode! I watched on my phone while driving home. (Still on the road).

Johns sword is definitely valayrian steel (so). The previously on clip even mentioned it so I figured it was coming. Lol and I made the same connection with brienne lol. Seemed like those swords work eleven better than dragonglass. But it all ties together with showing valarya this season too. Great stuff. Nights king watching John was telling too. And the raising of the dead was creepy and awesome. Battle was incredible.

Tyron/dany conversation was everything I expected it to be. Awesome. Only book stuff was cersei and arya story lines and still both good. Though they skipped a other character arya played first. Not sure if they'll go there at all.

So much I want to say but probably won't get to do much today. Lots of driving left!

Definitely best ep of the season though!

Mike V. said...

That "so" in parenthesis was meant to be "sp" lol. I wasn't trying to dismiss such an important reveal! Lol

Mike V. said...

Oh yeah theon coming clean to Sansa about bran and rickon was great too.

As for Ramsay. No bets. No idea where they're going with that!

MJ said...

Awesome episode ! Best yet this season. Th Giant stomping the dead and picking them off of him like gnats was fabulous. At first I thought an avalanche was coming. Second wave of the fight when they all just jump off the cliff was phenominal. I swore though - if they had killed Jon Snow or Thormund I just might have stopped watching ! LOL As soon as that Wilding mom put her two kids on that boad I knew she was dying. So I am assuming that the reason Jon Snow's sword did not splinter when hit by the whitewalker weapon is due to it being Valyrian ? We do know that there are two more swords out there like this one - Jamie's and Joffreys.

The fact that they continue to show Ollie and his unhappiness over aligning with the wilidings certainly is spelling out that he will be doing something stupid in the near future. Can't believe only 2 episodes left !

Dany and Tyrion sparring was interesting. Jorah needs to get over it already. She's sent him away twice now - since Tyrion managed to save him from being killed. So now he volunteers to be a slave so he can fight in from of her ? whatever. Too funny when she took his wine away though.

Arya thing getting more interesting too. Even Sansa - her face when she found out that her brothers were alive was priceless. And she might be getting a break - sounds like Ramsey wants to go meet up to Stannis and his army.

Best was Cersei - seeing her so low - getting everything she deserves. NOW she's concerned about her son the king ? I caught that Qyburn mentioned the 'project' is still moving forward. Guessing that has something to do with the Mountain and whatever experimental treatment was given him ?

MJ said...

Just read all your comments - so to clarify mine - I knew that the sword was Valarian steel - I was questioning if that is why it was successful. Brienne ? Thought Jamie and Joffrey had them. I don't remember Jamie giving up his sword when Brienne left on her quest. Dang richard - you really do hate Brienne. LOL

Mike V. said...

Definitely significant with the steel mj. But a reveal to book readers too! (Not sure if Grrm canon though lol). Jaime definitely gave his sword to brienne. She named it oathkeeper.

Ollie. We speculate he will fill the role of another book character by the end of the season. He's on track to do so. Lol

Anonymous said...

MJ, You're saying a lot of my thoughts too. Yea the Mom and the two kids in the boat scene was a "dead" give away. And yes, Jorah needs to get over it,kind of dumb now. I"m thinking he hopes to become a hero from the fighting pits and so Dany would have to accept him since the people would love him. Tyrion said it was the people's reaction to seeing Jorah with Dany that was the problem.

I read a recapper say that now we see how Joffrey was a better King than Tommen--lol.

MJ, yea it's been my theory that since the dragon glass comes from Valyria and too the Valyrian steel both being made partly by dragon fire and/or the fire of that volcano that they have similar qualities. It's the ice and fire thing at work with Targeryans/Valyria/dragons being the fire. Brienne has Jamie's sword now, ugh, I hate it. But, I was wondering who might have Joffrey's. I thought Tommen probably has it.

MIke, what do you think about my theory on Dany not touching the throne and her statements on breaking the wheel?

If Ollie fights or tries to kill Jon Snow, it would be a huge let down at this point since it's just so obvious.

I'm beginning to think they're not going to finish all the ADWD stuff this season.

Also, note that Stannis has 6000 troops now. That is a big drop from when he beat Mance at CB. He had something like several tens of thousands then. He's lost well over half his troops. Kind of makes this upcoming Baratheon/Bolton fight not nearly as big.

I want to know what's going on with Margery.

I'm wondering about the wights and water, why didn't they go in after the free folk?

BTW, it was the best ep in part due to NO Brienne--lol.


Mike V. said...

I meant to say I didn't know what you're talking about with dany not touching the throne lol.

I think they're very much in track to finish the majority of the book material by the end of the season.

Jorah - sounds like he thinks he's still serving dany by being in the pits. That's how I interpreted it.

Anonymous said...

MJ, Yes, I do not like Brienne,neither the character nor the actress. Even to the point that it will be a big negative for her to be in Star Wars for me.

BUT, right now Ramsay holds my biggest dislike and not just because of him being a bad guy, but the actor is just unlikeable, kind of like Joffrey was--lol. Roose is not a good guy either, but the actor is great and even strangely a little likeable.

I have really hated the way the Sansa storyline is unfolding. This last ep wasn't as bad since they showed her being strong in dealing with Theon.

BTW, am I the only one who sees the actress playing Arya as being WAY too old now? I mean she's looking way over 10 years older than she should be. It was hard to swallow some of those scenes with her pushing the cart looking like she was soon to be coming up on middle age.


Anonymous said...

I think it was the house of the undying when she walked through the throne room of Kings Landing and the roof was gone and it was filled with snow. MANY posted about how strange it was she didn't touch the iron throne when it was right there at her fingertips. Some said that was a sign she wouldn't get to sit on the throne, lots of theories about why she couldn't or wouldn't touch the throne a few seasons back.

But recently, in developing her army and ships all have assumed she would go after the throne. But, that's not what she said. She said she will break the wheel. So, I'm thinking she didn't touch the throne several seasons ago because this has ALWAYS been her plan. If so, what a GREAT payoff for keeping up with the details!!!!

I'm not sure what form of government she has in mind, but it doesn't seem to involve the Iron Throne itself--that's my point.


mj said...

Ah - thought he gave her another sword. Or just forgot I knew. Joffreywas not better, just more mean and petulant. Lol. I wondered too why the wights did not follow into the water. they jumped off a cliff so its not about safety. they don't need to breath either. Actress playingArya def does not look like a kid any mor

Anonymous said...

OH, I should add I didn't like the zombie feel of the Hardhome battle. It was like that movie with Brad Pitt where they were swarming. Way too zombie like.

So, from Hardhome to CB via land may take a while given the bad weather?


MJ said...

LOl on Brad Pitt movie - think was Warrior Z. zombies, walkers, the dead army, etc - it's all good for me. But yes - they were very fast moving. I'll have to watch again cause I think that they even became decrepit 9sp?) very quickly too. Just like jumping off that cliff didn't break those exposed bones. LOL - I just look past all that.

Mike V. said...

Okay, I have lots to comment on but still no time right now...maybe this afternoon.

WWZ btw...also based on a book...but I think they really changed it...still an entertaining movie.

I watched the HBO GO version of GoT and they have those interviews with D&D aftewards. They said they loved that sequence when the wights fell over the mountain...because it was effective in showing how unstoppable these things truly are. You can only kill them with fire. I'll write more later!

I also read up on what actually is in the books about Hardhome...i vaguely remember the off-handed references....but they definitely used some of the wording from the books to illustrate this entire battle. Good stuff! I'll send the wiki link in a bit.

Anonymous said...

I was wondering about the wights being stopped by swords and spears during the battle? There was certainly a feeling of hopelessness on the part of the free folk when those wights came pouring down on them. Good thing the ships were there.

I'm trying to figureo out if the greyscale will have something to do with the wights. It seems Valyria produces a lot of everything that can kill the wights and white walkers. So, since the stonemen with greyscale are doing fine at Valyria (vs dieing) maybe there's something to the greyscale that can hurt the wights or protect others? It would be great if Shireen had some ability to help in the upcoming war with the wights & WW. And now that I think about it, maybe Jorah would too. I suspect we'll see Valyria again and with dragon fire.


Mike V. said...

I definitely suspect that the Dragons will come in handy in fighting the wights. We don't really know how many white walkers there are either...but now we know at least Jon and Brienne can fight them. lol And anyone with dragon glass (of course in the show, they left that bag behind..uh oh)... I don't know where Joffrey's sword ended up...i.e. if he was buried with it.

I agree that it can't be a coincidence that we have 2 different types of zombies in this world...wights and stonemen. I think it'll come into play now more than ever.

Still have more to say but will write more later!

Anonymous said...

If you guys could only comprehend how I totally hate what I figured out with Brienne after the show!!! She's going to be a heroine now, ick, ick, ick, ick--infity times ick--lol. OK, so maybe infinity to infinity power icks--lol. Now I"m starting to feel like I"m communicating the amount of disghust-lol. I kind of feel like I'm describing an episode from Archer--lol.

BTW, I've heard some casting news for S6 and there's a few new interesting characters. For sure, they won't finish all of ADWD and AFFC based on the characters.

BTW, we should note Jaqen's statement about the many faced god not caring if Arya is ready or not.


Anonymous said...

OH NO, Joffrey did have his sword on his chest when he was laying in the sept with Cersei. But, that's not 100% proof he was buried with it.

There has to be other Valyrian swords out there.

I can see a dangerous trek to the fist of the first men to get some more dragon glass and/OR I can see Valyria coming back to life at least partially to make some more with Dany's dragons.


Mike V. said...

Sam found the dragonglass at the First of the First Men. They left the bag at Hardhome. I don't think there's any more at the fist but I could be wrong. Yeah we don't know exactly how the dragon glass is made do we? I just assumed by dragon fire or maybe I read that. But, yeah that could be even more indication that Dany will be mobile SOON.

S6 casting - Haven't heard anything yet, but I did see rumors that if anything would still be adapted it would be the iron born storyline from the books. So if that's the casting you've seen maybe that makes sense. Unless it's more the characters you were hoping for THIS season. lol But for the most case, they're going to be caught up to the books. Now based on the name of the final episode this season...I'm not giving up on LS. lol But I'm sure it has more to do with other characters still on the show...and a mirroring of the episode name of last season's finale.

LOL on brienne...I don't really have much more to add though she really doesn't bother me as much as you!

Other Comments:

Wiki link on Hardhome (book stuff) - Sounds like Tormund is enroute there in the books. -

But here's the book quote of Mellisandre's vision
“ Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained."

House of the undying - wouldn't touch the throne....Didn't she reach out to touch it and then the vision changed? I'd have to rewatch. Maybe it was foreshadowing...I dunno. But it is interesting to think that maybe she wants to topple the whole governmental structure.

Corrections on comments I made earlier. apparently even Arya's persona of Llana isn't really in the books either. Her first persona was Cat of the Canals. But I guess we'll see where they're going with it. I am 100% confident she'll run into Meryn Trant though. lol

Actually I think that's really all I have to say. I did rewatch the battle this morning and it was pretty darn impressive. I do wonder if Wun Wun is going to walk wherever they're going in the sea. lol

Anonymous said...

From the research I've done, Valyrian swords are not buried with their dead former owners. So, I'm hoping for Tommen to have Widows Wail.

All those Valyrian swords are named btw.

That would be great if LS came back. But, I don't see it. From the title I'm thinking Dany and Cersei stuff perhaps Oleana Tyrell and Shireen's mom. But, Ep 9 title makes me think one of the key remaining 3 things will occur then.

YOu could be right about no more dragon glass at the Fist of FM. One reason I was speculating that they will make some more somehow. Of course they could find another place where stored. OF course to me, going back to Hardhome to get the bag is always an option, but show runners don't think like that. I mean the wights will have left Hardhome for CB so finding that bag is at least possible, assuming the WWalkers didn't take them. They need some dragon glass for what's coming to arm more fighters. We don't know all about making dragon glass. But I think we know it takes dragon fire and must use some geology from the area of Valyria.

Does it take fire to kill wights? It sure looked like they were killed with regular weapons. Maybe the fire is specific to avoid creating a wight from a dead person? And the WW king raised those recently killed, we didn't see any zombie bodies coming back together. I had forgotten that the WWalkers controlled the wights directly with like telepathy or something.

******************************HUGE book SPOILERS****************************8888

So we have Dany flying drogon away, Cersei's nude walk(after this last ep I'm thinking she'll be sporting a grunge look, ick) and JOn's stabbing. EP 9 looks to be Dany's to fly away and Ep 10 for Cersei. For Jon, who knows? Of course I'm guessing on all of it.


Mike V. said...

That makes sense that the swords wouldn't be buried...they're too valuable of commodities. Maybe Tommen does have it. Lots of swords have names! But yes, all the Valyrian swords we know of have names.

Yeah...agreed on LS and who it probably applies to. I've always though episode 9 would be where that would happen (what you're thinking)...makes sense and should be pretty incredible based on effects we have seen this season. Had to think about it but I definitely know what 3 events you're referring to. lol And all 3 are highlights from book 5 and should make the cut. And there are hints at each happening.

Well the fact that they pointed out that the bag was being left behind might indicate that someone will go back for it. You never know. But like I said...we don't know how many white walkers there are. It might be just 4 or 5 of them that we saw in this scene...maybe there's only a handful plus their army of wights??? Of course, from the scene last year it seems like they're breeding White Walkers from Craster's kids. Unless we're meant now to assume he turned the baby into a wight. The baby was still alive when the Night's King touched him. Have you done your research on the Night's King? Obviously, the tale had to be told in the books...but I forgot....apparently he's like the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and married a female white walker...and there's more to that but I forget. It might have been one of Old Nan's tales that I guess we should assume is true at least for the tv show.

The only way Jon was able to kill the wight that attacked Mormont in season 1/book 1 was fire. For those deteriorated wights, the were able to shatter their bones...but maybe they just kept reassembling. They really didn't show. lol I think this was a reveal to how the Walkers were raising the dead. And we now know it's the Night's King that is doing it just like he created the walker baby.

********************BOOK SPOILERS CONTINUED!!!! STAY AWAY TV ONLY PEOPLE!!! ******************************

Oh there's 4 big events. lol When you said 3 I assumed Robert Strong, Drogon and Jon's stabbing...totally forgot about Cersei's nude walk. lol

I can't believe you don't think Ollie won't be the one to stab Jon. Yes it's obvious to us but they had to lay the groundwork to make it seem like this is a plausible thing that Ollie would do. Yes, it's heavy handed and a pretty rough way of doing it....but they only had so many scenes and characters to work with. I guess you could have Thorne do it...but I don't think they'll go that way.

For a bit there in this last episode, I thought Ollie might stab Sam! lol

Anonymous said...

For those wanting good info on the Nights King(blue eyed guy at the end) and some other related elements from the books and TV show. Lots of good history quickly laid out.


The babies converted when he touched them. I recall many white walkers standing around when he converted the baby. I don't recall any white walkers with bones showing or them looking raised from the dead. The baby would become a white walker. So, very different from a wight which is raised from the dead. That's how I recall it anyway?

Yea, the fire killing wights stuff is a little muddled but shouldn't be. For now I'm going with a spear can kill a wight since he's already been raised from the dead once. GRRM has said they're not zombies--lol.

Ollie will likely do the deed. I have to remember that the same show runers had Sansa raped for is as yet, NO good reason.

Anonymous said...

Did any of the Nights Watch return with JOhn? He's going to need witnesses the others at CB trust


Mike V. said...

Richard, Careful what you're saying in non-spoiler territory! Though, I do know it was vague enough. lol

Pretty sure Dolores Ed is coming back with Jon.

Agreed the baby was probably a white walker...and thanks for the reminder that it seemed there were a bunch of other walkers there at that ceremony. I think they were all blurry but most likely white walkers.

I disagree that wights can be killed by spear. There's a sentence in this link below about beheading them being useless..they'll keep coming. Yes, they shattered the bones of one of the skeleton wights....but I guess that's a way to disable it.. I don't think that would work on all of them.

Anonymous said...

Glad Ed is coming back, that will help at CB

Thanks for the link

I always thought it took fire to kill a wight. But, this battle scene seemed to violate that. I will rewatch. I think the CGI had them blowing into little bitty pieces when hit with a sword, but my memory isn't perfect. From what the article from the link says those little bity pieces might still be alive wriggling around--lol. But it didn't say they would come back together. I liked what it said about when they are decapitated they have no sensory capability from the head. So, if you take their head off they're pretty useless, same with arms and legs. So, cutting them into pieces may not kill them but they're useless?


Anonymous said...

OK, so I rewatched and there were several instances of wights being taken out without fire. WunWun smashed them to bits and pulled them apart and they weren't getting back up-lol. Karsi sliced several apart and so did Jon(without Longclaw). One KEY difference between wights and zombies is that zombies bite you and it's a disease whereas wights are reanimated by the white walkers, it's more like magic. So, it's not contagious like zombism. I'm not saying they're "dead" but were they ever really alive after reanimation? For sure, when they're in bits and pieces they are no longer a threat. It looks like the wights are kind of extensions of the white walkers after reanimation.

ON Ramsay being needed by show runners. I'm not 100% sure now. I mean the show runners want to start narrowing the plots and they like having a bad guy. So, maybe the white walkers and wights will serve a similar purpose of Ramsay in representing the antagonist as they narrow the plots?


Anonymous said...

I should add that arrows in the head didn't stop them nor spears in the gut :)


Mike V. said...

I think the point remains that Fire is still the only way to truly "DEACTIVATE" them. It is a song of ICE and FIRE afterall! :) But yeah slicing (or smashing) them into bits is also effective! lol

Agreed on zombies vs. wights. I read the similar comparisons yesterday.

So on one of the podcasts I listen to there were reminders of Valaryan steel comments from the books vs. show. In the show we know of Longclaw, Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail, and the dagger that was used as an attempt on Bran's life. It is now in the hands of littlefinger.

We know that Sam Tarly's dad has one in the books. And apparently they are FAMILY blades that are passed on through generations...hence why Jon ended up with Longclaw because Lord Commander Mormont wasn't going to pass it on to Jorah.

Tyrion makes a comment in the books about there being several hundred blades in the 7 kingdoms but maybe thousands in the world. (which was meant to imply not that many)

Also, there is precedence in the books for the swords being used against the walkers. It was in Sam's research that it said Dragon Steel could be used against them. Jon asked Sam if that was Valaryan steel, and he suggested it was a safe bet. So it kinda was in the books, just not confirmed.

Anonymous said...

so, somebody is copying my posts on zombies vs wrights--lol.

Where did you read that info?

I wonder if the books will only allow fire to kill them? The sword slicing and giant smashing make for good TV.

Good point on Longclaw. Makes me wonder about Jorah's future especially since he has greyscale now. I wonder if he will ever get to use Longclaw??

Yea, that's why I thought Tommen has Widow's Wail.

You know, what you posted might be considered a little spoilery for non bookers?


Mike V. said...

Apparently GRRM confirmed the Widow's Wail passed to Tommen (according to this podcast)

Not where I read the Zombies vs. Wights...i thought it was in that wights wiki link i posted. But it may have been on the podcast. lol

True on book vs TV with the fire vs slicing up. I don't remember how Bran and crew dealt with the wights they came in contact with in the books.

I don't think anything I posted could be considered spoilery...just informative of the books. Are you speaking to the amount of steel in the books vs. show?

Whatever I posted is no worse that what you wrote yesterday! lol

Anonymous said...

LOL on spoilers...

OK, so here is my top 10 speculation poitns for the last two eps of season 5. It does take into account some book stuff so spoilery

***********************book stuff included*************************************

The first three are kind of easy

1. Dany won't leave until ep10 and Mereen won't be in as big a mess as I thought.

2. Jon will be stabbed by Ollie and pronounced dead in Ep10

3. Cersei will due her nude walk in EP10 and we'll meet RStrong

4. Sam will leave for his Maester stuff in EP9 or 10. I'm thinking maybe 9 which will mean Jon will have less support in 10 and so that's when he gets stabbed.

5. Jamie will stay in Dorne and not leave until early next season. What an absolute waste of one of the best actors on the show. He would have been a much better Jon Snow.

6. Stannis will start his battle with Roose in ep9. Brienne will see this attack and go after Stannis. Ramsay will get mixed up in there as well. I'm not betting on Stannis coming out alive but wished he would. Shireen will not be executed.

7. The Night King will be nearing CBs territory.

8. Arya will have her first kill in Ep9.

9. We will see something of the Ironborn/Greyjoys

10. Brienne will be made out to be a hero of some type, ick, ick, ick.


Mike V. said...

****************RESPONDING TO RICHARD'S SPOILERY LIST*******************

1. I really think it's happening in ep 9. There were 2 scenes in the book. Drogon invades the fighting pits and burns some dude. (Maybe it'll be hizdar here??).....then near the end of book 5 she is in a field and there are dothraki approaching and she once again mounts Drogon....i may have that wrong. But if that's the case maybe they'll do that second part in ep 10.

2. Definitely ep 10. But pronounced dead??? I don't know how far they're going to go with it. And if they don't do exit interviews with Kit Harrington, it would be a dead giveaway that he's not off the show. Granted it was similar with Daniel Dae Kim after season 4's boat explosion. lol

3. Good bet. Or maybe 1 in each episode??

4. Very good idea on Sam leaving!

5. Yeah but he's a perfect Jaime too....but agree it's all wasted on this Dorne storyline. I agree he'll still be in Dorne at the end of the season. I just saw confirmation that spain will be used in season 6 again....but the Meereen fighting pits were filmed in spain too.

6. I just can't imagine them killing off Stannis yet. But you never know. I was starting to think maybe Brienne would face Mellisandre instead of Stannis...she did give birth to that shadow baby afterall!

7.'s possible we'll see more of him.

8. She's already had several kills...but her first kill as "an assassin of the faceless men"...yes....she is definitely killing Meryn Trant this season! But maybe she'll kill this other dude first.

9. I think that'll be saved for next season if anything...unless you're referring to Yara/Asha and their father...then maybe. I can't believe he's still alive on the show! lol

10. Give it up man...brienne rocks!

Anonymous said...

GREAT point on the exit interview or NOT.

I"m thinking Theon's sister may become involved somehow given Theon being challenged by Sansa

Yea, Kit Harrington is not my favorite actor, at all. BUT much better than that uncoordinated dufus. The only thing she rocks is when she shakes her head and they rattle--lol.


Mike V. said...

*****************MORE SPOILERS (DON'T READ!)******************************

One thing I briefly touched on but think it very well may come into play is ADWD's epilogue. (BTW...i forgot until I read this synopsis that Cersei's Trial by Combat had not happened an introduction to RS may be all that's in store and maybe that and the walk of shame could both happen) But since Varys has been MIA since Jorah took Tyrion..he very well could return to KL to cause more chaos. And it wasn't only Kevan Lannister he kills...but Pycelle too! That would be quite a note to finish the season on...especially if they have the white bird and snow indicating Winter has come. Granted...those characters aren't big enough names to end a season on it might be in the final sequence of scenes. They could always have Dany riding Drogon to end the season. Or a surprise LS! lol (i know i aint happening)

Anonymous said...

Good to know, thanks

OK, so here is a big time you heard it here FIRST:
The White Walkers will come South of the wall and raise the dead maybe including Robb and Caitlyn. And perhaps Brienne will have to kill Caitlyn. Can you imagine Joffrey being reanimated, probably not, but how about those in the Winterfell crypts?

I was thinking about the quantity of white walkers and it occurred to me that the number of Crastor's wives/daughters could give us an idea given a normal 50/50 ratio. I'm thinking like 30 to 40 from what I recall, including scene with baby.

Tyrion knows about the threats at CB and The Wall first hand. He said he would try to get them some help.

When Jon gets back from Hardhome he's going to talk with Sam about the sword and the white walkers along with dragon glass. That along with what Stannis said will set the course for Sam's pursuit of knowledge on how to defeat this upcoming invasion.

So, is the wheel broken and Dany just doesn't know it yet? It could be argued that the high sparrow has broken it or that the invasion from the North will break it. Her vision of the throne room in a state of destruction and her not touching the throne really can look like the wheel being broken, whether she did it or not.


Mike V. said...

lol...I know this is going to sound like I'm lying, but I actually was going to post the other day joking that Joffrey would be reanimated whilst holding the widow's wail. lol (that was before we decided Tommen probably has it) So yeah I could totally see the walkers waking the dead on their way south. That would be pretty crazy!

Good estimation but on WW but I just have no idea!

Good point on Tyrion...he certainly has information to provide to Dany about the north. Granted..he never saw a white walker he just knows Mormont was worried about it.

Probably right on with Jon/Sam stuff.

The whole "break the wheel" thing was pretty vague...but I think she was talking about the big families always at odds and vying for the throne. It seems she wants to UNITE Westeros and destroy the current structure of usurping and seizing the throne based on whatever claim everyone thinks they have. Very bold and generalized statements. We just don't know HOW she plans to do it.

One thing I don't think we talked about here was how Tyrion casually forgot to mention her potential allies in the Martells. Afterall...Rhaeger WAS married to Elia Martell.

Anonymous said...

Well, we talked about Jamie heading to Essos. But you're right about Tyrion not mentioning it.

But, you make a great point on Martells and Targeryans. So, does that give us a little more information on what Jamie might do?


Anonymous said...

I really thought Brienne killing the Caitlyn wight would have you lit up some. I mean given the LS stuff and all. Can't you just see that with this show? But hey, like you've come up with great storylines the show runners have ignored, this could be one of those too--lol.

Why don't they listen to us? We could write the rest of this story!! LOL.


Anonymous said...

They start filming season 6 next month. I wonder how much of what GRRM has done will be involved and how far along he is on the new book?

I've seen some of the new casting calls.


Mike V. said...

I think they meet with GRRM before every season to discuss I'm sure they have a "little bit" of an inside scoop on the books. I really hope he gets book 6 our before next season AND he reveals the big reveal about J. After that...I think the show and the books can end in their own ways.

Yeah you mentioned you saw some of the casting calls. I asked if it was the ironborn that were cut out of this season lol

I definitely can see the dead reanimating when the walkers come south of the wall (IF they come south...surely they will)....seems like a good way to bring back some old faces in an emotional way. Kinda like they do on The Walking Dead....(even though these are not zombies! lol)

Mike V. said...

BTW I googled and read the casting calls...some interesting speculation going on on what they might be. I'm not throwing a spoiler warning up, so I'll just leave it at that for now!

Anonymous said...

Casting rumors.

Yes a greyjoy is cast-lol


Mike V. said...


Yep that's what i found too...though at a different site and some different speculation. The new Khal makes more sense for the strong man than Strong Belwas (which is what I read).

I'm guessing what I said that you considered somewhat spoilery was about Randyll Tarly having a Valaryan steel blade. I didn't realize we might be seeing him next season. lol And I actually forgot we met him in the books. Kevan Lannister pulls him into King's Landing. But it sounds like there's speculation that Sam might be traveling HOME instead of to Oldtowne based on the casting. But we'll see!

Like the speculation on Bran flashbacks to Ned and possibly his uncles.

So I read the article on winter is coming about people in the cast saying the final scene of the season is going to blow people's minds even more than the red wedding. And D&D have confirmed that the first and last scene of the season are book scenes. Of the 3 big things I can only think that it would be Jon's scene that could be that shocking to people...especially if it cuts to black without us learning more (kinda like the book). Of course, the article I read also threw in LS as an idea too...granted everyone involved with the show including D&D and GRRM have said she's not going to be on the show.

We'll just have to wait and see! We'll have seen all episodes in 10 days. lol

Anonymous said...

******************spoiler books*********************************

Yea, I've read that the opening and ending would kind of book end the season. So, your point about exit interview is really key here. Of course only the unsullied are going to be SHOCKED--lol. Most of us are really trying to figure out if Jon will come back as we suspect. I mean from everything we've seen you're not the same coming back to life. Even brothers without banners.

I'm about 50/50 on him coming back, that is if he will. I'm not crazy about the actor at all, but the character with R+L=J all these years is someone you'd like to see going forward. So, I'd really like for him to come back, but I don't know. If it's as big as the Red Wedding then someone has to be dead, period. Otherwise it's kind of just a temporary shocker that people will be like, it was a rip off deal. And I think he's the 998th, so going to 1000 for this series to wrap up kind of makes sense.

I guess bottom line is I really don't see him being Lord Commander next season. He'll be changed somehow if he comes back. Dany was alive when she entered the fire and that's a very likely key difference. Another difference might be the magic of the dragon eggs. I wonder if Bran can have any effect?

There is no question that the Night King had magic in reanimating the dead into wights.


Anonymous said...


IF JS dies or partly dies, etc, who gets Longclaw??


Mike V. said...


You know he might be AA or PTWBP right??? the sword might still be his. And there is no confirmationt hat he is actually dead! The end of this season will be telling.

I don't think anyone was questioning that the Night King or White Walkers were magical creatures. lol

Anonymous said...

I should clarify my point on Night Walker vs Dany magic. The Night Walkers have the magic. I don't think Dany does. I think like in the case of old Valyria, the magic resides with the dragons. Ice and Fire.


Anonymous said...

*****************book stuff*******************************8

I should research AA and TPTWP more on their origins.

1. For example was AA a Targaryan?

2. I'm not sure that a Targaryan can live through fire, are you? I mean without dragon magic.

3. What various types of magic could resurrect Jon? He was stabbed many many times to make a point I think. And that is that he died. I mean Jamie simply stabbed the mad king to kill him. It's not like Targaryans are immune to death--lol.

4. I would not be shocked if fire resurrected him, but at this point I don't think the foundation has been laid for that type of resurrection. His resurrection could establish a new paradigm of course.

It's kind of strange heading into so much unknown since we don't have a book reference. But, I think the world GRRM created has some pretty good paradigms that are well understood by loyal followers. We KNOW there are two big time objectives at work by the key players.
1. Dany wants to break the wheel, I don't think this means that she wants to be the one on the throne since she chose to not touch the throne.
2. The Ice and Fire war for survival.

I don't think anyone expects the Night King to win. BUT wouldn't it be great if he did. I mean what a shocker. And GRRM likes surprises. I would absolutely love that and with it tieing in the love of his life, etc. How bold, how brave, how different. It would establish GoT as a singularity, unrivaled in history as a work of fiction.


Mike V. said...

Magic - There has to be something special with Dany. She is immune to the effects of fire. Of course I see now that you think it was the dragons that protected her. IN the show, they didn't protect her from walking into a scalding bath without any burns. And you're doing it again with "night walkers"! lol White Walkers!! :)

******BOOK STUFF******

I really don't know the answers to any of those questions as I forget the prophecies. I'd have to research myself. lol

Also interesting going forward is when discussing this stuff are we talking about the book vs. show because they could be potentially different...for instance, you bringing up Dany refusing to touch the throne (which I still need to rematch)...that really isn't in the book. I thought that with breaking the wheel...that might even include DESTROYING the throne...i.e. there should be NO King or Queen of the 7 kingdoms. But, I'm not really sure what that would imply.

it certainly would be interesting if the White Walkers prevail in the end. But, I don't think it would be a satisfactory conclusion to the story. GRRM has been on record saying the ending will be bittersweet. That makes me think that there might be victory against evil, but there will be losses......and with GRRM there will always be ambiguity on who is truly the bad guy. So, maybe we will get some backstory on the walkers and hear their side of the story. (similar to LOST in that sense...though this week's TV Book club bashed LOST for throwing away ambiguity for a battle of good vs evil in the final season. I think they still tried to humanize the man in black to show where he's coming from at least.)

Anonymous said...

Yea, my mind goes faster than my fingers so I confuse Night King with white walkers and get night walkers--lol.

Great comparison to LOST. You know, some people will just never like how the show progressed. I thought how they took the story lessening ambiguity and getting to the backstory was some of the most interesting episodes as I felt like the onion was being peeled back and we were getting to the heart of things. But, you know, some people don't want truth, period, in any form.

Yea, exactly, she will destroy the iron throne. And what are the implications of that? That's how I took it, again combined with her choosing not to touch the throne. Of course if the Night King has his way, he'll destroy it for her.

I don't really expect that the Night King will prevail in the end to the total loss of the characters of the 7 kingdoms. GRRM will have some of our "heroes" still standing at the end.

Well, if Dany is magic then she would be AA or you know who. Which is bleak for you know who at the end of ep10. I don't think she is by herself. I'm just looking at what made Valyrian steel and dragon glass and the stonemen all so special. And I think she took that bath after the fire and who's to say how hot it was. I didn't catch it being that hot anyway.

BTW, I forgot who gave her the dragon eggs?? That could come into play soon.

MIke, you must find the answers to those questions. Curious minds want to know--lol.

BTW, it's rewatch, not rematch :)


Anonymous said...

Illyrio Mopatis, a Varys cohort to re establish the Targaryan rule gave Dany the eggs.

So, where did he get them from??


Mike V. said...

I have to turn autocorrect off of the mac at home. Ever since iOS updated its autocorrect, the mac has it too and it's awful! lol

I did rewatch that Dany scene though. I think it could be interpreted as her being distracted from her quest for the throne by other factors which is very much in play in her story. She was about to touch the throne when she heard the cry of a baby (her imaginary baby with Khal Drogo)

I'm with you on LOST, obviously. I thought the final season was awesome! The problem with revealing answers is that not everyone is going to like them.

Not if you know who is the TPTWBP! lol Of course, I have to look at the prophecy on that one again.

The hot bath - one of her hand maidens said "don't go in the bath, it's too hot!!!" or something like that. lol It was meant to foreshadow what was to come. She also held the dragon egg without any burns. (but that could be the magical dragon protecting her hand per your argument) ....but it didn't protect the maiden that took it out of her hands whose hands were scarred. (if I'm recalling correctly)

I think Illyrio gave her the dragon eggs. I could be wrong though. But he thought they were fossilized eggs, a relic from another time. It was the awakening of magic in the world that made the eggs "wake up" as well.

Anonymous said...

From GOT wiki on dragons
Dragons are massive, flying reptiles which can breathe fire onto their enemies, rumored to have a strong connection to magic, later "proven" true when magic begins to return to the world after the birth of the first three in over two hundred years.

NOTE how it is said....later "proven" true when magic returns to the world.....

Dragonflame can turn flesh to ash, melt steel, and crack stone.


Mike V. said...

All of that makes sense in the world of ice and fire, but it does nothing to change my mind that Dany has some special qualities herself to have awoken the dragons. lol

Mike V. said...


In case you want to freshen up:

AA -


Dragon Eggs Origin - (they're from illyrio but how he got them is a mystery)

Anonymous said...

Dragon eggs require two things to open. Fire and Blood. Dany did that when she sacrificed the witch in the pyre. It has always been the case and even animal sacrifice in a fire with the eggs will do that, it has been that way for thousands of years. The dragons have the magic, not Dany. But, hey you'll find out eventually--lol.

BTW, I've been thinking of the most amazing ending possible for this season that would maybe burn the internet. And that would be the appearance of AA in a closing shot.


Mike V. said...

"Daenerys then walks unflinchingly into the flames. The resulting magic restores life to the eggs, from which three dragons hatched, the first known for centuries. Daenerys emerges from the fire unharmed. Drogo's former khalasar, now hers more surely than they had ever been Drogo's, kneels in awe. Aggo, Jhogo and Rakharo willingly swear themselves as her bloodriders, and Daenerys becomes the first female Dothraki war-leader, a khaleesi in her own right.[18]"

This seems to imply that her walking into the flames was in part causing the magic to happen. Why were dragons extinct if anyone could just take eggs ,sacrifice an animal in fire to birth them? No was the combination of Dany in that situation.


Mike V. said...

Considering they barely have covered the AA prophecy on the TV show, I really doubt that's what they'll go with for the closing shot of season 5. unless they cover it heavily in the final 2 episodes. lol

Anonymous said...

If Melissandre heads back to CB then you have a clue.


Mike V. said...

*****BOOK STUFF**********

Hmm...that might explain why they would include Beric D in the show and have Melissandre see him first hand with a discussion with Thoros.....meanwhile no LS in sight. Maybe it was to inspire M to do something at the Wall??? But, it seems like she's going to be too busy in the remaining episodes this season trying to sacrifice Shireen.

In any case, I'm sure the final scene will be the scene at the Wall. But where they leave it is the big question.

Anonymous said...

YOu know, your above story about Dany having some kind of powers really points to her being the one prophesied about which could be AA. Varys believes she is if you recall the conversation with Tyrion. So, with VArys, Melissandre, Stannis, and various others AA has had some foundational work put in place on the show. Stannis is supposed to have Lightbringer according to Melissandre. Those who didn't believe were put to death. Rholl'r is supposed to be a big deal according to her about AA and the show went into it. But, I just don't see how the others we're talking about are related to Rholl'r--the god of fire. Hence why Melissandre's activities could be important? Good point on time remaining with just 2 eps. But, I"m so used to selective time compression, I'm open to it.

I'm beginning to think Stannis will loose since we all believe Ramsay will go into next season. I mean the actor even bought a house in London thinking he was on next season--lol.

AA or the other one could possibly be a whole new actor coming up too. I just don't think so though.


Mike V. said...

*****BOOK STUFF*****

In the books, even Aemon talks about Dany being AA. He said the prophecies were wrong about a Prince...they should've been looking for a princess. The a lot of the clues of the prophecies fit with the birth of the dragons and surviving the fire. But then Melissandre has conflicting prophecies in the book.

i.e. "all I see is Snow"

Melissandre no longer believes Stannis is the one in A Dance With Dragons. She even opts to stay at the wall rather than follow Stannis to Winterfell.

There is still the possibility that the prophecy is false too. And that it might really not come into play in the show too much. Same with these gods. It's all to assume that the gods are real and Rholl'r is an actual entity.

I'm interested to see how far they go with the Stannis stuff. Obviously in the books he's marching towards Winterfell and gets snowed out. And the battle will be early in book 6. They're throwing a wrinkle in with this Ramsay plot. I'm sure Ramsay will get some kind of victory. But wiping Stannis off the grid? I don't know. I guess someone important could die but that would be pretty crazy. We're in uncharted territory so I guess anything is possible!

Anonymous said...

I would trust Aemon over Melissandre.

It's looking more and more like our hero is done for. But, yet Ramsay, Reek and Brienne will survive.

You know it's possible that Jamie could go to the NOrth and take the sword. I mean he's kind of on the outs with Kings Landing. And maybe help direct the Dornish that way too???

The thing is with where they are on the NIght King's progress, next season should show not just them fighting at the wall, but moving beyond it. If all they do is have a fight at the wall, then they are stretching it out for another season.

I think it would be only after the fall of the wall that Dany and her dragons really get involved with the fight in the NOrth. So, early season 7 she's on the ground in Westeros, if not late Season 6. I could see Winterfell falling or about to fall at the end of S6 where it would have brought together former enemies. Dany's vision of the throne room leaves very very little doubt that Kings Landing will be a wreck before the end of the series.


Anonymous said...

The more I'm thinking about it, considering Sam, the more I think the white walkers will get past the wall in S6. For one thing I think Sam is going to make a trip after Jon asks him to look into the sword stuff and after Stannis asked him to look into the white walker stuff.


Mike V. said...

You really are just throwing caution to the wind with your spoiler discussions!! lol Granted a lot is theorizing and speculation but based on stuff we know!

*******BOOK STUFF**********

So we don't know for sure the wall will fall, but I think it's a safe bet. If the vision is true, then yes King's Landing will take a hit. Granted, it could be only a possible future she was looking at. Maybe a warning of things to come if she doesn't get involved...her next vision took her north of the wall. So she may be aware of the threat based on that vision. Maybe she can prevent that from happening.

I refuse to think Jon is out of the story after ADWD. I think even GRRM hinted that he's not in interviews. He may not be AA or PTWP but there are still important details to unveil with his story arc and he's poised to play a large role. Granted, GRRM does like to subvert expectations at every corner. But at some point, the shockers need to stop and he needs to finish the story in a satisfying fashion. If he kills Jon, Tyrion, Jaime, Dany, Arya, Sansa and Bran what's the point of the story in the end? Everyone dies??? No....he's already shocked us with Ned, Robb, Catelyn etc... sure some of those above may die but not before they play a major role in the end game. That's my opinion at least.

Anonymous said...

Well, everything I posted about was in the show at some point. But, you would have had to pay strict attention to detail--lol. And it helps a lot over the last several years to post here.

This is one of the best sites for posts if you look at what's said.

I hope you're right.

LOL, I notice you didn't push for Brienne death--lol


Mike V. said...

The speculation of a certain character's fate is potentially hinting too much without a spoiler warning. Lol that's all I meant!

I don't consider brienne one of the "main" characters. She might be important but the characters I mentioned I think are key for the end game.

Anonymous said...

So, been thinking about Stannis. He's just not going to kill Shireen, I can't see it. Davos wouldn't allow it either. Which means that Melissandre may feel like she doesn't belong with Stannis any more. It's possible that she will leave before Ramsay attacks??