Monday, May 20, 2019

Game of Thrones: Season 8 Episode 6 - The Iron Throne

Hello Friends and welcome one last time to our Game of Thrones discussion.  The series finale has aired.  It’s been a bumpy road getting to this episode.  There’s been ups and downs, but I thought this final one was done masterfully.  Not everyone will be pleased, but this ended pretty much as I had hoped (give or take a few tweaks).  Not only did it have some amazing shots to be mesmerized by, but they handled the remaining characters well and figured out the ultimate question of “what comes next?”  I’m not sure what else we could expect from a finale of such a complex show.  And I still eagerly anticipate George’s books to see how he gets to this similar point.  So, to Game of Thrones the Series I say WOW!  To this episode?  Standing ovation for landing this ship and another wow from yours truly.  Let’s discuss one more time!



Discussion Points


The Reign of Queen Danaerys Targaryen

We rejoin Tyrion, Jon and Davos in the aftermath of the King’s Landing destruction.  We see the devastation, the burned children and eventually the celebrating Targaryen forces (Unsullied, Dothraki).  Under Queen Dany’s orders any supporters of Cersei Lannister need to receive Justice.  Jon tries to put a stop to it and almost ends up on an Unsullied Skewer.  There is lots of effective imagery in the destruction and the ash falling (I think we can agree at some point there was snow mixed in too, right?).   But the one that comes to mind is when Dany approaches her forces with Drogon’s wings spread behind her.  The Dragon Queen looking out at the Spoils of War.  Then she starts her terrifying speech using terminology we’ve heard her use throughout 8 seasons, but with new definition behind them.  Breaking the Wheel returned, but she talked about essentially conquering the world by “liberating” from tyranny.  But, it’s her definition of tyranny.  She had the backing of her people.  But, Tyrion stood up against her and threw down his Hand Badge.  He was charged with treason for freeing Jaime Lannister and taken away.  Jon got some side eye but their confrontation was yet to come. 

Jon had some very important warnings about his queen.  First briefly from a run-in with Arya. His claim to the throne will always be a threat to her.  Then Jon has a fantastic discussion with Tyrion in his prison cell.  Tyrion recaps Dany’s ventures in Essos under a new light.  All of her conquests that we cheered (basically all of the discussions we’ve had for the past week were intentional by Beniof and Weiss) helped her formulate an ego about her being born and destined as a savior.  We’ve heard her speak about her savior-itis back in Qarth when she spoke about surviving a funeral pyre and bringing Dragons back into the world and talking about how special she is.  It felt oddly out of place, but in hindsight we can see what they were building to.  Maybe they didn’t realize in season 2 they were building to this, but they can use points like that to get to that end goal (especially knowing George’s bullet points for his planned ending).  Tyrion basically tells Jon he has no choice but to kill Dany.  He bonds with Jon over their shared love for Dany.  Still hard to tell if he “LOVED LOVED” her as in wanted a relationship.  We go back to him sulking in the ship in last season’s finale.  But, regardless he believed in her and he has flipped his allegiance.  Murder of innocents is a deal breaker.  Damn, Jon still needed convincing.  He is Ned Stark through and through.  He makes an Oath and will not break it!   Not even after slaughter of children!   Tyrion did suggest as Arya did that Jon will always be a target due to his bloodline.  Tyrion’s last ditch effort was to ask about his sisters and if they’ll bend the knee.  Maybe that’s the push he needed.  He still told Tyrion unrealistically that they’ll serve their queen.  Jon had a big decision to make.  Definitely a tough spot to put him in.  I think I suggested before Dany’s turn was that it would feel very thrones-ish if for some reason Jon was forced to kill Dany.  I wasn’t sure how we’d get there, but this made a lot of sense now that we were there. 

Everything about Dany’s approach to the Red Keep and Jon’s approach was beautiful.  There had to be snow falling and when Drogon shook off the snow and let Jon go through, that was just an awesome sight.  But Dany entering the Throne Room with the scorched (not just scorched, removed) ceiling and the snow/ash falling.  It was breathtaking.  And it was perfect that they didn’t even let her sit on the throne in the end.  Jon entered behind her.  Dany spoke of this being what they were both destined for.  No one has a say in what is right for the world except them.  She will break the wheel and remake the world the way she sees fit.  She’s so far gone at this point that she doesn’t even realize what she sounds like.  But, Jon realizes.  He does say how she’ll always be his queen.  They embrace.  And I honestly didn’t think he was going to do it for a second.  And then we hear the dagger.  And just like that, Dany’s quest for the throne ends just feet away from it.  We’ve (I’ve) wondered at this point, what was Jon’s role in this story?  Why does it matter that he was a Targaryen and 1st in line for the throne?  What role was he to serve?  As Tyrion said, he guards the realms of men.  And this was the newest threat.  His Targaryen blood?  Came in handy when Drogon came in and did not even try to touch him.  I’m a bit confused at his reaction, but I will take some credit for him destroying the Throne!  No one gets the Iron Throne! There will be some debates with my office pool as we do get a new monarch.  But that Throne was destroyed and Dany DID break the wheel!  I’m getting sidetracked.  Drogon grabs Dany in his clutches and flies away never to be seen again.  (Was still hoping to see some Dragon eggs before the end, but it’s all good!).  Rest In Peace Dany.  She served your role in the great game of thrones.  There will be complainers, namely those that named their children after you.  But, I think this was a fitting way to end her path.  I never saw her being the ultimate winner.  But, she certainly played her part.  She took out Cersei!  She just went a little too far.  (Just a smidge). 

Highlights worth mentioning from this segment of the finale:
  • Tyrion finding his siblings together under the rubble was pretty gut wrenching.  No matter how much we despised Cersei, we always knew Tyrion would do anything for his family.  And he tried to spare them this ending throughout the whole series. 
  • Tyrion’s jokes about Varys and how his ashes could say “I told you so” to Tyrion’s ashes after he’s executed.  
  • I’m going to settle on it being snow falling on King’s Landing.  Makes it more poetic for Ice and Fire to embrace one last time before her flame is extinguished.  And Drogon melting the Throne whilst the snow falls.  I like it.  
  • Dany talks about how she heard stories about the throne sitting on 1000 swords.  All of Aegon’s conquests when he first landed in Westeros.  Fun fact, this actually is how George R. R. Martin pictures it as well.  There was an illustrated book of Westeros that he backed and said they nailed his vision of the throne best.  It wouldn’t have been practical for Television, but this was a nice shout out.  

The Future  

We find out eventually that weeks have passed since Jon’s Queen Slaying.  While there was no evidence of Dany’s murder we have to assume that Honest Jon (Ned’s true son) came clean.   Tyrion comes out to the Dragon pit to a collection of Lords and Ladies of the 7 Kingdoms.   Winterfell was represented by Sansa, Arya, Brann and Brienne.  We had the Vale there.  Robin Arryn was back!  The new Prince of Dorne was there.  Gendry was there for Storm’s End. Yara was there for the Iron Islands.  They even pulled out Edmure Tully back for the Riverlands.  Grey Worm had the unfortunate role of representing Dany’s forces and smoldering at the fact that Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister are still alive.  He demanded justice.  He allowed this collection of people to nominate their new leader.  I had hope for a minute that I’d get my democracy theory realized.  I was just happy that they brought it up and through Sam.  But, it was even better that they laughed it off.  It was hilarious when Edmure thought that he’d volunteer to take it and Sansa asked him to sit down.  Then Tyrion was given the floor and he named Brandon Stark The Broken as the next Ruler of the 7 Kingdoms.  I think we always thought he’d be involved somehow after he survived episode 3.  His knowledge of the past and future (confirmed!) would be helpful for them to avoid missteps in the future.  When Sansa spoke up about Bran not being able to father children this allowed Tyrion to see Dany’s vision of a broken wheel come to fruition.  Her true vision.  End the family reigns.  Sons of kings can be horrible (Shout out to Joffrey!!!).  In the future Kings and Queens will be chosen from the Lords and Ladies of the 7 (scratch that 6) Kingdoms.  Everyone supported this except Sansa.  The North wished to return to be an independent nation as they had for thousands of years.  Bran allowed this to happen.  And thus the Starks are back on top folks!  Ned Stark is truly redeemed! All I ever wanted from this story.  Bran picked Tyrion as his Hand and suggested that he will spend the rest of his days fixing his mistakes.  Two reluctant Bastards, Cripples and Broken things (Season 1 episode name and a Tyrion quote) ruling Westeros!  

Tyrion tells Jon that the compromise they came up with is for Jon to return to the Night’s Watch and serve his life sentence.  Jon even questioned if there even was a Night’s Watch anymore.  I believe by the end we find out that they got one up on Grey Worm here.  But we’ll get there.  We get a brief stare down of Jon and Greyworm.  But then Greyworm indicates that the unsullied will be sailing to the Isle of Naath in Missandei’s name.  I think we joked about this outcome.  I wonder how they’re going to react to these thousands of unsullied rolling in there.  And, did they give the Dothraki a ride home or are they just screaming through the riverlands now?  

The final meeting of the Starks (as we predicted would happen) was as perfect as I’d hoped.  They apologized to Jon on this outcome.  Jon and Sansa had great parting words implying she will be a great ruler of the North.  Arya will not go to Gendry after all.  She always wanted to know what was West of Westeros and she plans to find out.   I smell a spinoff people!!!  (Kidding, but I’d totally be in for that).  There’s a little reference to Needle and Jon moves on to bowing before the king.  He apologized for not being there for Bran when he needed him.  But as always, Jon was where he needed to be for the story to unfold as it did.  (BTW, loved that Bran said to Tyrion “Why do you think I’m here?” During his naming).  

We’ll get one more send off to the Starks but not before some comedy of the first small council meeting of the new world.  I loved Tyrion playing the game of small council chairs as his father did, but then everyone just stormed in and sat wherever without even trying to position for a better seat.  I couldn’t even keep track of all of the new seats, but having Sam, Bronn and Davons on the council was fantastic.  The fact that the king showed up for the meeting is a change from the past.  And Brienne and Pod as King’s Guard is perfect too.  (Hopefully, they loosen the restrictions of taking wives or lovers for Pod’s sake and for the sake of his beneficiaries!).    I’ll get into some of the highlights of this sequence in the bullets below.

The closing shots were on our Starks prepping for their new lives.  Arya has a ship and a crew and a direwolf flag flying high as she sails West.  Sansa dresses in her garb and is crowned QUEEN OF THE NORTH!  And Jon reaches Castle Black only to find Tormund and the Free Folk there waiting for him with....YES.....GHOST!  And it’s almost like they knew we’d be outraged by episode 4 and did it on purpose.   Jon went up to Ghost and gave him the hug he deserved!  They’re back together.  I joked with friends last night that everything could go wrong in this episode but if Jon ended up heading North and petting his dog, all would be right in the world.  This was beautiful.  Jon, Tormund and the Free folk marched North beyond the wall.  The almost throwaway line from episode 4 ended up being pretty telling of Jon’s future.  There was no Night’s Watch.  Why was Tormund waiting there for him?  Maybe Bran gave Tormund a heads up that things would go down this way.   Actually, the more I think about it that’s probably exactly what happened.  Tormund even told Jon something like “You never know”.  Take that Grey Worm!  Jon didn’t want the crown, but he served a purpose coming back.  It’s all I wanted!  And even beyond my wants was that he actually survived after it!  


Highlights from this segment of the finale:
  • I saw a meme of this.  But it turns out that while Jaime Lannister is a Kingslayer, he also was a Kingmaker by throwing Bran out that window. Poetic! 
  • Brienne filling out Jaime’s King’s Guard book.  Perfect.  She noted some of the highlights of what he did in service of The Starks and of the Realm.  I didn’t pause and read the stuff (I will in my rewatch), but hopefully she threw in the justification for killing the Mad King.  I did however see that she said he died protecting his Queen.  
  • Bronn got his castle and a bunch of titles.  He’s also the Master of Coin and told Tyrion his debt was paid.  I loved when Davos called him Master of Titles.  
  • Sam brought out the Song of Ice and Fire for Tyrion to review. It was hilarious that Archmaester Ebros didn’t even include Tyrion in the story.  I love that Sam named the book as he told Ebros that his title was horrible.  Some of us had thought maybe Sam would end up writing it himself, but this makes sense.  Sam is an Archmaester too.  But, I guess in this new broken wheel government he can stay with Gilly and his children.  I’m going to make that my headcannon!  
  • Davos, I have no idea what master he was of.  But they were talking about structures.  And the joke of rebuilding Brothers or other more important stuff was great.  I did think Tyrion was finally going to finish his joke about the Honeycomb and Jackass in the Brothel.  But the reference alone was awesome.  
  • I thought we might see Bran warg with Drogon when he said he would find him, but no.  We did get a hint that he was heading East.  Probably to Valaryia.  So, maybe he would lay those dragon eggs eventually.  But, I guess the realm will want to make sure they keep him from causing more problems.  

As I’ve been typing this up I can’t help but see the reaction on Social Media to this episode.  Honestly, I’m not sure what people were expecting.  No matter how we got to this point, this is basically the kind of ending I was expecting.  I think in the books it will be handled somewhat differently, but it’ll end up somewhere like this.  I’m sure I’ll start reading the reasons why people disliked, but I will enjoy these innocent moments where I had my own opinion before it gets tarnished!  As a culmination of an 8 year show this was a great send-off to me.  Yes, we wanted more with the White Walkers and the prophecies.  One could argue that Jon’s killing of Dany was the culmination of that prophecy.   These final seasons were like the Cliff’s Notes versions of what we may eventually get if George finishes.  But, I think they hit the key points to close up the show.  I can’t imagine how hard it is to write and produce this show.  55 night shoots for just the battle of Winterfell.  3 filming teams in 3 different countries. Putting it all together into something that makes sense and is entertaining.  What they did over the past decade was nothing short of amazing.  Would I have preferred a longer season 7, 8 and maybe a couple more?  Sure.  But, I get them wanting to hang it up too.  We’ve discussed it many times and probably will again. 

As for me?  This may signify me wrapping things up in the recap business as well.  Yeah, there’s still The Walking Dead, but my passion for recapping that is waning (let’s be honest, it’s already waned!).  I still love talking TV, so I’ll still be here discussing it with anyone that wants to talk back.  But, we’ll need another show that we can all get behind.  Thrones was one of a dying breed.  In the age of streaming, watercooler shows have become non-existent. Shows you need to watch on the day it airs or you get spoiled or miss the conversation.  But, shows tend to rise out of the ashes and I’ll be here if that happens again!  Thanks to everyone who joined me on this venture.  I hope you enjoyed my ramblings.  If the books ever come out, come back and we’ll chat about them!  I look forward to our discussion in this thread one last time as well.  I may do a LOST rewatch this summer.  Not sure how much I’ll discuss it, but if I do it’ll probably be in the general threads here.  I’ll probably do a Game of Thrones rewatch as well.  But for now, my watch has ended!

30 comments:

Mike V. said...

Davos - Master of "Ships". For some reason when Bronn said it I thought he was messing with him and calling him Master of SH#TS. I also loved when Davos went with the ol' Stannis grammar correction and Bronn dubbed him Master of Grammar...Lots of nice subtle nods to prior seasons.

All in all Bronn's story ended up being pretty ridiculous this season (which Richard I know you'll argue that it already was ridiculous when he became an assassin lol) But, I like that he ended up by Tyrion's side and of course that he didn't kill a Lannister in the process. lol


On my rewatch this morning, I freeze framed the White Book as Brienne was writing in it. It was good stuff. It spoke of everything from his oath to the Stark Girls, fighting against impossible odds against the Night King. It talked about Loot Train and fighting bravely and barely escaping with life. It talked of escaping imprisonment to try and save King's Landing. And that he died protecting his queen.

Another correction: Sam is Grand Maester. The Archmaester is Ebros still.

I forget what I said in the recap, but it looks like there still were people dressed in Black (i.e. Night's watch brothers). So even though it was filled with the free folk after a cut to black...there still is a Night's Watch. but those brothers did not stand in the way of letting Jon make a decision to leave and head North. Some are saying he'll be the King Beyond the Wall. I don't think they necessarily made that clear. And they never needed a king before the White Walker threat. I think the point is that Jon is a free man, he's left the game and he has his dog again! lol

Jon/Tyrion's talk about "Ask me again in 10 years." Was it the right decision to kill dany? Probably, but only time will tell. Same with the series itself. I think that was a kind of 4th wall moment as well. Will this series stand the test of time? Ask me again in 10 years. I think LOST has aged well since the finale 9 years ago. There still are many detractors, but people that have binge watched since see no issues with the finale. (or fewer issues) Also...George may have book 6 out in 10 years! LOL

Anonymous said...

My watch has ended--that was great Mike! Thanks again for the recap. Something might come up. Let me know the networks you're watching.

In regards to the finale it was more or less what I expected. Of course I have several dislikes and questions on logic but overall it ended as I thought/spelled out last week.

1. When Sam stood up and brought up elections--I was thinking of you Mike. So relieved when everybody shot it down.
2. Greyworm could have actually become the ruler.
3. The Imp--poor guy--he needs a shave.
4. Lena and Nik were in the credits
5. Brienne, Davos, Arya in the council area didn't make sense. They're not rulers.
More later.
6. Re Tyrions bringing up Joffrey. JOffrey and his brother were the only ones who took over from heritage. And Joffrey was the only one bad. Robert and Cersei took over by force. Just as did Dany.

So,

In regards to Breaking the Wheel--LOL. There is a King and a Queen. So, the children thing was Dany's problem with the wheel? LOL on that, SERIOUSLY. That's not what she meant every time she said..."I was born to rule"....

Again, more later

Richard

Anonymous said...

I thought it interesting there was zero dialog with Jon in the North. And when he was heading North of the wall with the door coming down I was thinking--yea the True North. And Maybe another Ygritte in Jon's future. And even more down the road--coming to defend the North/WF against attacks from the other 6 Kingdoms.

Oh yea, now it's 6 Kingdoms and a Plus One. BTW, Sansa didn't agree to Tyrion's/
Dany's vision. She never bent a knee to Dany. So, the North is different.


Richard

Mike V. said...

No problem Richard. Thanks to you and MJ for sticking around to talk about it too! (I’m sure there were other commenters over the years as well. Thanks to you too if you’re still here!) Networks: We can get into that. I mean I watch anything on the basic networks, AMC, FX, CW (this I need to stop lol)….but then stuff on Netflix, Hulu, amazon Prime and soon to be Disney + (I think this is where the good stuff is going to be. Mandolorian is showing lots of promise for Star Wars TV content. And the Marvel series are MCU certified and will be dealing with the main movie characters)…. I’ll definitely be watching Watchmen on HBO as well. This is Lindelof’s new show and I think it takes place in a world assuming the graphic novel has already taken place. (I only saw the movie adaptation of it and barely remember it…but I ride for anything Lindelof makes!) I’ll be back for the Deadwood movie too. I don’t remember all of the 3 seasons, but I’ll remember enough. Surely, we can figure something out we both watch or will be willing to watch! Westworld S3 looks pretty nuts. Aaron Paul joining the cast.
Yep…the finale ended the way it had to end based on what had transgressed so far. I got the feeling that they had the final beats of the finale figured out first and then worked backwards to figure out how to fit it into whatever remaining episodes were left (over multiple seasons).
1. LOL…Glad you thought of me. I thought of our discussions too and you laughing at the thought of it! (just like they did in the show) I’m just glad the topic was raised. So I wasn’t far off from thinking it was an option.
2. He could have, but that would’ve been ridiculous if he did. I didn’t discuss in the recap how there were thousands of troops on both sides ready to wage another war again when they were all meeting. That’s something that might be drawn out further in the books unless Jon killing Dany will be the climactic moment in the book series too.
3. LOL…I think he finally shaved before the small council scene. (at least got it back to a manageable length). Enough time passed for the 7 Kingdoms to send troops and leaders to King’s Landing. Jon’s hair was back to season 1-5 length for the end scenes too.
4. Lena and Nik were in the episode as well. Lol they played some great corpses.
5. Brienne was at the last council when the brought the wights as well. Sansa sent her as the representative. Davos has been an advisor and a Hand of the King. Sam really didn’t belong there either. But he was. It was the remaining characters on the show….I was willing to go with it. Even Davos said he shouldn’t have a say but he said “I” anyway.
6. The Targaryens passed down for generations (about 300 years) before Robert usurped the crown. The point still is the same. Not everyone is fit to rule. The Wheel that Dany originally referred to breaking was Stark, Baratheon, Lannister, Targaryen….and the family dominance and circle going around forever. Dany changed her interpretation of the wheel in this episode to something bigger. Well…maybe she thought the family dominance over the 7 kingdoms was a form of tyranny…and she accounts for her family’s usurping the throne as well. She wants to liberate the world from rulers…but in the process she would’ve become an Empress (female emperor? Lol) or something.

Yep agree on Jon. I was just glad he was able to go chill with Tormund and Ghost and live a relatively stress free life…unless another threat did arise. Lol But yeah…I like how they ended it for the North being independent and Sansa in charge. The North was always ruling itself anyway….KL never wanted to be bothered by them. Of course strange that they could send someone to the Night’s Watch since that’s part of the North. I guess they’d work out trade deals. Lol

Mike V. said...

Copy paste compressed that last post all together. maybe it's readable! lol

MJ said...

OMG Still on trans-atlantic hangover. Watched both yesterday. Glad Jamie did not kill Cersei. Saying ! Liked the ending - except Bran being named Bran the Broken. LOL Not sure I like Bronn being on the council - but he is now a Lord so … Will Soooo get back tomorrow with more. Haven't even read your 2 recaps. SIGH But I will !!!!!

And damn - Italia exhausting - but SOOOO worth it. seriously.

Mike V. said...

Welcome back MJ!! Glad you had a good time. Take your time catching up, it's not like there's a next episode pressuring you!

LOL on Bran the broken. Yeah that was a bit cringeworthy...but I get it. Tyrion has a soft spot for Cripples, Bastards and "Broken" Things. So it just went with that theme. pretty great that Bran and Tyrion ended up on top after all they went through.

So...I think I won my office pool at my place of employment. It Depends on if they like my answer for who is on the iron throne. You can't really argue with my answer. I said "The Iron Throne is destroyed. Dany successfully breaks the wheel and a new form of government is put in place." While Dany is dead...Tyrion broke the wheel in her honor and changed the way things happened! But if they say BRAN is the right answer I'll be P.O.'d! he did NOT sit on the Iron Throne! You gotta be careful with your wording! lol Of course, they also had a column for "if the character dies, who becomes a white walker?" The correct answer would be NO ONE, because they'd be wights! lol

I don't think my answers on a certain "OTHER" pool I entered were much different. So keep me posted! lol :)

Anonymous said...

I think Tyrion's aspirational notion of the council electing a ruler upon the death of the current ruler is denying the nature of man. Where mankind wants more by nature. To believe this could continue ties into his other mistaken thoughts.

Just look at Sansa. Her thing a few eps ago was not having someone from the North on the throne--IE Jon. Now that she got what she wanted her back up position was to pull the North from the 7. All of this was to keep her crown. Bottom line is she's showing the kind of power pursuit that will always be present. The 6 Kingdoms vs the 1 Kingdom is a likely war. AS are many other permutations.

Then the winner will rule.

It still happens today in other ways. Just look at Brexit. The voters want it but the EU Brits are trying to undo what the voters want.

As far back as Plato democracies have been noted how they fail and turn into a single ruler to come back from the socialist tendencies of voting other people's money to the voters at large. Ours is different being a republic(IE Electoral College) and now that is under attack.

I am sad to see so many attacks on the finale. I didn't think it was bad. The bright future of many seems hard earned. Not trite nor simple.

Richard

Curt Sminkey said...

Well done, as always, my friend! Haven't been here in a while but I did after the last 6 episodes and always picked up things i missed on my own.

You're the man!

Mike V. said...

Thanks for checking in Curt! Appreciate the kind words.

@Richard - eh...the show’s over so of course it continues! lol As long as Bran is alive he’ll be able to stop any attempts to manipulate the system. It’s kind of like LOST with every answer came 3 more questions. When you finally get your ending, you have to poke holes and find ways that it won’t work. At some point and ending is just an ending! Tyrion has been given a second chance and this time we have to assume it’s better than it has been. But we’re all free to think as we like.

Before the Targaryens the Starks ran the North for thousands of years and they kept the peace with the other kingdoms. There’s nothing saying that wouldn’t work again. But as for who would take over next, it’s probably another Stark. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell! It works for them. The North was always hard to govern by an outsider anyway. They pretty much ran themselves during the Targ and Baratheon eras.

Don’t get me started on the Electoral College hate. But I must be careful...my political sidings may become too clear. Lol

I listened to one of my podcasts today and they might have nailed it on endings in general. People in masses just don’t know how to process their favorite thing ending. So they turn to hate. It’s a bit of a generalization. But you spend too much time worrying about what they’re not covering/what they’re skipping rather than enjoying what is and appreciating the effort gone into land the plane. It happened with LOST...it even happened with Breaking Bad. When you can count how many episodes are left in a series (even seasons before)...people start getting antsy. And this was the world’s pastime for the past so many years. Every episode an event worth discussing. Now it’s over. And we don’t know if we’ll ever see anything like it again. The ending was good...but it ended. And people had impossible hopes for what it would be. It always happens. So much hype, people are going to be disappointed. Beniof and Weiss said even the most perfect ending will still be hated by a percentage of people so they’re not expecting to please everyone. The other thing about the internet is that it gives voice to the loud minority. And pretty much everything across the spectrum has a loud group of detractors from politics to entertainment. It’s a shame and the downside of social media! I still sometimes think Flat Earthers is a made up thing on the internet and it’s just fueled to make peoples’ heads explode. Lol

Not even sure this post will make sense. I’ve been running on stream of consciousness for the past 10 minutes.lol

Mike V. said...

GRRM’s closing thoughts on Game of Thrones, comparison to book and thoughts on future.

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

Leslie said...

Hey everyone! Just had to stop by and let you know that my husband and I finished GoT with you! Over the last year, we watched from the beginning, and frankly, I was surprised I enjoyed it as much as I did. My husband loved it! I wasn't disappointed in the ending and was surprised when Jon killed Dany, but then again, I haven't read much during my watch, so I didn't know all the theories. Mike, I loved reading your recap, and I felt a bit nostalgic since I found you back in the LOST days.

I don't get to check in here like I used to. I had a major life change last year. I left a job I had for 35 years and was blessed to find a better job in a new industry that has been life changing for me.

I hope you all are doing well, and you may see me pop back in sometime. :)

Mike V. said...

Hi Leslie! Glad you caught up and were able to join us for the end! Sorry you didn't enjoy the ending, but as we all know it's tough to end these things especially without any more books as context for them. We can feel comfort that the end point is where George R.R. Martin is heading but we'll need to read his books to see how he plans to get there when they're done (If they get done)

Sorry to hear about your life change, but it sounds like things are looking up and better for you so congrats on that! We've certainly missed you around here. If you look at a few of the past general posts you'll see I did shout outs to you when I was giving my thoughts on Idol and The Voice for deaf ears. lol Hope to see you on here again soon!

And thanks for the props on the recap! The Recap is a dying format and I'm not sure when I'll get the chance to do it again for a show I passionately follow. But I'll never say never!

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the link Mike. GRRM--yes and no, etc, LOL.

Just to be clear. I don't see the wheel broken,LOL. There's still a King and a Queen who got her throne via birthright. Don't let your office pool participants see this blog, LOL.

It would be interesting to see a poll on it.

Richard

Anonymous said...


From my daughter who lives in DC area after I asked her what she thought about the finale:

"I liked some of the wrap up, but I feel like Bran as the king came out of nowhere. I loved Sansa’s crown, as it was the direwolf. It’s a little ridiculous that Arya killed the night king but didn’t kill Cersai, in my opinion. I think Jon got the short end of the stick. The wheel can’t be broken bc it’s a monarchy and as long as you have someone in charge that doesn’t answer to anyone, tyranny is always a threat."

Richard

MJ said...

I haven't heard about our pool yet. have to look into that

I am seeing headlines that people hated it ? I like the finale. Wasn't thrilled that Jon went full circle and was sent to Night Watch - but I can live with it.

Arya sailing away seemed right. Def surprised that Bran became king. But makes sense - he's not tempted by things that men are and he sees the past so has more wisdom then most.

I cracked up when Sam gave my idea of no rulers and people voting and was shut down immediately. LOL. LOVED it when Jon hugged Snow though. I was so upset when he didn't say goodbye.

Leslie ! Glad to hear you are doing well.

Anonymous said...

Is that the Leslie from the LOST days?

If so, YEA, good to hear from you.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Leslie came over from LOST and has been with us in the TV Addicts years as well.
Lol She just hasn’t been commenting as frequently.

Not all office participants read the blog (not like in the olden days!) lol But, I see the show as indicating the wheel was broken by getting rid of the family succession plan. If you go back to Tyrion and Dany’s first meeting where she says she wants to break the wheel…she talks about Stark, Baratheon, Lannister, Targaryen….blah blah blah wheel. I intend to break the wheel. And Tyrion in this finale said “That was the wheel she intended to break”. We can argue semantics, but from a TV standpoint that was the intention! Lol

Daughter feedback – I don’t know – Bran was heavily theorized to be on the throne at the end. (just not the iron throne as it seems!) I didn’t really buy into the theories. I thought his knowledge of the history of Westeros could be useful, but I didn’t see that as him being King. Maybe on the council. Master of Whispers definitely! Ahh I didn’t look at Sansa’s crown too closely, I’ll have to check that out.

My point remains the same on THE WHEEL and the show’s intention. Lol

@MJ – I’m still waiting on my office pool too! They’re probably trying to figure out how to answer the throne thing. It’s not cut and dry but my answer is infallible!

Of course people hated it! It’s a finale of a heavily theorized show/set of books. They were never going to satisfy everyone. I was pleasantly surprised by the finale. I had my share of complaints in the episodes that led up to the end, but I thought the end was good. I am looking forward to seeing how George gets there so he kind of wins in the end. We thought his books would be pointless. But they’re even more important now. (not that everyone will read, but I’m still interested!)

Jon wasn’t in the Night’s Watch at the end though. I interpreted it as it being all a ruse. Even if he was, he left Westeros with Tormund to be a free folk, possibly even lead them. It’s ambiguous. But no one stopped him from going either. I think Bran knew what would end up of Jon...I even think bran may have suggested to Tormund to wait at Castle Black for Jon before Tormund left Winterfell. Bran would’ve known! And Tormund/Jon’s conversation in ep 4 seems to hint at that future. Apparently there is ties to Lord of the Rings too…. The Throne is the Ring…both were destroyed. Jon Saves the realm/Frodo saves the realm, but it’s not saved for them. They have to leave in the end. I definitely understand Drogon’s intentions better now than I did when I wrote the recap. He blamed the pursuit of the throne for Dany’s demise rather than Jon killing him. Smart dragon! Lol (again…the Ring/Throne have similar powers in that respect)

Sam and democracy…oh yeah I suggested it too and Richard laughed at me in previous weeks. So it was funny it went down that way. Lol Many were upset at Jon not hugging ghost. Many a memes were born that day. Then we found out it was just the cruel writers toying with us!

Leslie said...

Hi MJ & Richard! Mike, you misunderstood. I wasn't disappointed with the ending. I was surprised and enjoyed it thoroughly! I've wondered if you watched the new Idol the last couple of years. It was easy picking Laine this year, but there were others I liked better who left earlier. I loved Maddie last year! She was my pick. This year I figured it would come down to Laine or Madison (not sure if I'm spelling their names right.)

My job change was difficult after all these years, but it has been a GREAT thing for me in every way, so I'm glad I went through it. Life is good!!! I still watch my TV, but very few shows are must see when they air. I just don't have as much time to read or comment like I used to. The Walking Dead is still a favorite. I'll have to go read the weekly post to see what y'all thought about the BBT finale.

Mike V. said...

My bad Leslie. Work has been crazy this week. They should’ve known I needed to focus all my attention on Thrones debriefing! We actually didn’t discuss bbt yet but feel free to start it! I’ll get there soon.

Yeah I’ve been watching voice (for Kelly) and idol. I’ll try and find the posts where I called you out. Lol

I’ll write more later. On my phone now.

Mike V. said...

Leslie, I posted on the general thread about a few things!

Just reread your original post and saw I missed the key word "WASN'T" before disappointed! lol Like I said it was a long day. Another one coming today.

Nothing more right now to add to the Thrones conversation except there are some fantastic Memes going around as always.

Anonymous said...

Yea, I just can't see the wheel being broken. But, you're welcome to your theory of course and that theory is what the show was trying to convey. It would be interesting to have an honest poll on it. AGain, I get that the show was trying to convey it as something Dany accomplished. But, like much of the show's details what happened doesn't match what they say happened. Like why they had to have those after show shows to explain what we just saw. And the disconnect between what the show thought/tried to convey vs what it did convey has been a problem for it lately. YOu can't have a King and not have a King--axiomatic. Like having your cake and eating it too. And in this case you have a land with 2 different rulers. Like that's going to last. As she said, Sansa isn't buying into Tyrion's idea of a King of the 7--which was his first idea.

I'm really encouraged by the people posting here!!

We need to find another show!!!!

Will comment on BBT finale soon.

Richard

Anonymous said...


Poll on the finale.

Richard

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2019/05/22/game-of-thrones-series-finale-reddit-fan-survey-jon-snow-bran-the-broken/3752262002/

Mike V. said...

In any case the wheel was CHANGED for the better. That is definitely what the show was trying to convey. But your points are valid!

Definitely encouraged by the comments! Of course, it could be just a swan song of comments before we're abandoned again. lol But yes, we need another show.

It's hard to predict what show will capture the zeitgeist again like LOST/GoT have. LOST is getting a bit of a resurgence due to all of the Thrones comparisons. I'm listening to a Thrones Podcast that is actually switching gears to do a LOST Rewatch to relook at the show 15 years later and see if we've learned to appreciate what they actually accomplished knowing how hard it is to land these shows. I might be doing my rewatch in conjunction with listening to this. I'll probably post an insights it inspires in me.

I know the things I'm anticipating most are the Disney + shows for Star Wars and MCU. At least what I've seen/read about Mandolorian, it's looking very positive. (but they're working in my wheelhouse lol)

Mike V. said...

Nice on the Polls. Half and half on breaking the wheel makes sense. I still say the intent by the showrunners was there. But I'm sure it's meant to be debated as well.

Totally agree on Arya winning the popular vote. She was always my fave in the books and Maisie Williams nailed the performance. Brilliant and very lucky casting. lol

I wouldn't rate these episodes that low. I mean they're not the best of the series...but episode 2 of this season was an all-timer.

Anonymous said...

EP 2 was good.

I was thinking during work today that it was toward the end of S2 or beginning of S3 when you turned me onto this show. My daughter had read the books. BTW, I agree with her that Jon got the short end of the stick.

THANKS.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Yea, MCU and Disney are not on my list of must watch. I didn't say it earlier but what they've done to neuter the HULK hasn't gone down well either.

The original Guardians of the Galaxy was one of the best recent ones. And it was probably some time ago.

I listed the networks I mostly watch, a lot of premium network shows.

I hear Westworld is coming back. And there's going to be a Watchmen series. I can't believe it will be anywhere as good as the movie. Dr. Manhattan made that movie as well as the odd ball "heros" I'm liking The Son on AMC--final season now too.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Will respond more later.

Watchmen - I spoke about this above. It’s lindelof from lost and leftovers doing it. And it takes place after the movie and/or graphic novel. It’s an aftermath type show. I put total trust in Lindelof and will be watching. Westworld s3 has a trailer and I mentioned above as well. Aaron Paul in it and it looks a lot different but could be just a tease of one aspect of it.

On phone. I’ll write more later.

MJ said...

Huffington Post has a poster from before season 1 - advertising GofT as a new show. Has Ned Stark on the Iron Throne with a raven beside him.

Manifest was pretty good ! Just saying.

Mike V. said...

I'm sure more than Huffington Post has the Season 1 poster. lol I think it might even be on the cover of my Game of Thrones physical copy (book 1) Ned was promoted heavily for season 1 to really shock people with his death in episode 9. I mean they had Sean freakin Bean from Lord of the Rings! Surely, they wouldn't kill him off! Of course...on the same side of the coin they had Sean Freakin Bean...the guy that has more death scenes than any other actor. lol

Or are you referring to the raven part? Because I don't recall a raven in the pic. Foreshadowing of 3 eyed raven taking the throne?

Here's the pic I've always related to season 1: https://images.app.goo.gl/T9oUknARzn4FYLPY7

Woa...I just looked up the Huff Post article...then went back to the link I just pasted above. I totally did not see that Raven there before. lol It's sitting right to Ned's right. It was always there. That's crazy. That said...the producers did not know how the show was going to end back in season 1. They hadn't met with GRRM until season 4 to discuss the end game. So that may be an incredible coincidence. Or just foreshadowing the significance of the 3 eyed raven which is very prominent in the books too.

Manifest - Yeah I dropped the ball with that one...maybe I'll try to catch up on that this summer too.

MCU - Richard, I've come to terms with the fact that we have different tastes on quality for certain things. lol So yeah I figured you wouldn't be with me on the MCU Disney + journey! But, I do think Disney + is going to ramp up and be pretty successful pretty quickly. They have such a large catalog and the things they're launching are pretty impressive too. At a cheaper price than Netflix, Hulu and Amazon...it's very appealing and is going to ruffle some feathers.