Monday, May 13, 2019

Game of Thrones: Season 8 Episode 5 - The Bells

Hello friends and welcome back the 2nd to last romp in Westeros!  Game of Thrones is coming to an explosive end.  On pure spectacle alone, WOW, that was some crazy stuff.  Story wise, we’ll have to get into it.  I think I like where this is headed, but it’s definitely not what I had in my head.  But, I think I’ve said in prior weeks, prior seasons that I wanted to be caught off guard and be surprised.  Not sure I’d call the obvious ramp up of a new villain a “surprise” per say, but the fact that they actually went ahead with it and the repercussions of said decision is certainly surprising.  Let’s dive on into it.  I’m sure we’ll have stuff to discuss!

Discussion Points

Before the Battle

The fallout from last week’s episode of  “Gossip Girl” takes form in this episode.  Varys wrote letters about Jon’s right to the Iron Throne.  He had his whisperers watching Dany.  He confronted Jon about how the Realm needs him.  Jon refused again pledging his allegiance to his Queen.  Dany confronted Tyrion about the news that traveled from Winterfell across the realm.  She figured out exactly how it happened and once again is displeased with Tyrion.  I mean seriously, if we didn’t follow Tyrion for the past 8 seasons and we were in Dany’s shoes there would be no reason to keep him alive.  But he’s Tyrion.  We like Tyrion.  Tyrion lives.  But, he may regret living now!  Dany did tell him that his life is on the line though.  

Long story short, Tyrion gave up Varys and Dany sentenced him to death. RIP VARYS.  So this is what Melissandre saw in his future?  To die by dragon fire?  Here’s the question.  Did Varys get the word out to key people across the realm about Jon?  Is Jon the last hope for the realm?  It’s starting to come into place for me.  I’m getting ahead of myself.  But Jon was brought back for a reason.  Mel knew he had to be.  He also saw Varys had a role to play in something.  If he was able to bring hope to the realm in Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen right at the moment that fear would be sweeping the realm, well that might be something.   The Song of ICE and FIRE might be more than a love story.  It might truly be Jon vs. Dany.  And Jon was destined to save the realm not from the dead (he helped with that), but from another being that had a magical origin.   Again, getting ahead of myself.  But we’re getting there soon. 

Jon and Dany did face off after the Varys execution.  While Jon pledged his loyalty to her as his Queen, he was unable to return affection.  She still loves him and he can’t get over the “we’re related” thing.  She talks to how she was loved in the East but feared in the West.  She chooses at this moment to act on the fear.  (The gods flip a coin with the Targaryens.  Dany certainly flipped!).   Now the show runners will be the first to say that Dany always had this side to her.  It certainly has been built up more in the past 2 seasons than previously.  She executed a dude in Meereen to the hate of the people.  She killed the masters in Astaphor with dragon fire and with the Unsullied.  But most of her death missions were righteous causes.  Then she came to Westeros and started lighting up people.  The show runners would have us think that her actions in King’s Landing could’ve been avoided if Jon didn’t spread that rumor.  I’m sure Cersei killing Missendei didn’t help.  

It seems like Grey Worm is in full support of Dany’s choice for Fire and Blood when he burns Missendei’s chain in the fire.  

We then find out that Jaime has been captured by the Targaryen alliance.  Tyrion starts wheeling and dealing and finding a way to help keep his 2 siblings alive.  He also wants to keep the civilians alive.  He pleads with Dany to spare the city if the bell is rung.  And he pleads with Jaime to convince Cersei to escape and to make sure the bell is rung.   Then he begs Jon, Davos and Grey Worm to stop the attack if the Bell is rung.  Tyrion frees Jaime and they’re off.  (I’m putting aside the whole way we got here with Jaime by a quick romp with Brienne then an exit stage South to Cersei.  We’re meant to think those 2 were destined for each other.  That’s fine, but then why even bother with the Brienne thing?  Just showing there was hope for Jaime and then he felt he didn’t deserve it?  Okay, over it!)  

Meanwhile, Arya and the Hound show up and hilariously walk their way past the Targaryen Alliance men.  It is confirmed that Arya is there to kill the Queen and The Hound is there for his brother.  We’ll get to all of that in the next section. 

The One-Sided Battle of King’s Landing

We were meant to think over the past 2 seasons that Cersei had evened the odds against Dany.  Nope.  There was never hope for Cersei.  This wasn’t even a battle.  This was a slaughter.  It started off methodical.  King’s Landing was armed and ready on the sea and in front of the North Gate (I assume). The Unsullied, Dothraki and Northern forces were there and ready, awaiting Dany’s signal.   Dany stormed in on Drogon and took out the Iron Fleet with no issues.  (Seriously, why couldn’t she have done that last week?  So ridiculous!).  Then she took out all of the Scorpions on the Walls.  Then she took out the North Gate from behind allowing the Allied forces to charge into King’s Landing.  I should say Harry Strickland and the Golden Company lasted maybe all of 2 minutes in this battle.  Jaime, Arya and the Hound all snuck into King’s Landing prior to the invasion.  Arya and The Hound found their way into the Red Keep before the doors were closed.  Jaime had to find a different way.  

When Jon, Grey Worm and Davos reach the Lannister forces, the Lannisters drop their swords.  (Quick cut to Cersei real quick.  Qyburn asked her to evacuate.  And in her best Grand Moff Tarkin she said, “Evacuate?  In our moment of triumph?  I think you overestimate their chances.”   Okay, she didn’t say that but she may as well have!   Let’s just say Cersei showed a bit more fear than Tarkin during this whole thing.   

So this is when things get crazy.  Dany parks Drogon on the wall of King’s Landing facing the Red Keep.  You hear crying for the bells to be rung.  They surrender.   The bells do ring!  (For a minute, I thought Jaime rang the bell.).   Then, we’re meant to infer a lot of information based on a look Dany gives while looking at the Red Keep.  Her family built it when they first landed in Westeros.  It was taken from her family.  Add in the recent developments with Jon’s claim and it’s a recipe for disaster.   The coin flip happens in her head and she goes Mad Queen.  She sets King’s Landing ablaze!  And it’s a spectacle.  There’s no coming back from this.  Let’s get into the highlights from this. 
  • Jon and Tyrion are horrified throughout all of this.  Jon tries to pull back the forces.  Meanwhile Grey Worm goes after the unarmed Lannisters.  Revenge for his sweet Missendei.  (Who thought Grey Worm would still be alive for the Series finale?  Seriously!?). 
  • Dany is taking out everything in her path.  No Mercy.  She believes it is Mercy though.  Mercy from future tyranny.  Yeah, Dany you are starting to sound like a nut job!  This is as good a place as any to observe.  We saw explosions of Green throughout the city. I don’t think Cersei was fighting back.  I think he dragon fire was igniting the cache’s of Wildfire across the city.  So she didn’t use all of it at the sept 2 seasons ago.  
  • Jaime encounters Euron while trying to get to Cersei.  They have a swashbuckling fight.  And just as my wife and I looked at each other and said, “surely Euron will not kill Jaime Lannister” he gets in a stab on him.  Later gets another one in on him before Jaime slays his 2nd “King”.   Good Riddance to Euron!  No Yara in sight.  I wonder if she’ll play into the finale?  Surely people around Westeros are going to rally to the cause of Jon or maybe Dany.  
  • Dany eventually goes after the Red Keep (after light up more than half of the city).   I think we are going to see the Throne Room as we saw it in the season 2 finale with ash falling from the sky.  Her vision has come true.  Will the throne be destroyed?  It’s been a big prediction by many including me.  But, I didn’t see it this way.  With her inspiring fear.  I thought they’d go another direction, but as I said above.  I’m interested to see where this goes and I wanted to be surprised! 
  • Inside, the structure is falling apart.  Cersei is as well.  She knows this is the end.  And while we want to root against her all of these seasons the show always wants us to sympathize a bit with her.  Especially in this episode.  They make her the victim.  The Mountain, Qyburn and some Queensguard try to help her evacuation.  
  • The Hound and Arya have a moment in the Red Keep before going after Cersei/Mountain.  The Hound says this is a one way path.  Revenge has consumed his life and there’s still hope for Arya.  He begs her not to go with him.  Cersei’s a dead woman anyway.   When Arya calls him Sandor and thanks him....ahh great conclusion to their arc.  Granted, when all is said and done there was absolutely no reason that Arya or The Hound had to be in King’s Landing.  The show runners even said that they brought Arya there to have us invested on the ground with the civilians who are being destroyed by Dany.  That’s fine and all.  I like Arya, and I’m glad she survived.  But damn they put her through the ringer.  As for the Hound?  No, he didn’t need to be there, but we wanted him there for one reason only.
  • CLEGANE BOWL!!!!!!!  Finally, we got The Mountain vs. The Hound.  I saw this on Reddit and it’s hilarious.  Qyburn’s reason for death?  Trying to stop Clegane Bowl from happening! Do not RIP Qyburn!  Fitting for him to die by one of his creations.  The Mountain, what’s left of him, no longer wanted to be by Cersei’s side but to take on his brother.   Cersei’s brisk walk by was pretty hysterical as well.  The Hound took out the Queensgard and then the 2 brothers had a fight for the ages in an apocalyptic setting on stairs to nowhere.  We soon saw there was no way to kill the Mountain.  Even the Zombie Kill through the head didn’t do it.  How about The Mountain trying to crush Sandor’s skull?  I think he might have taken his eyes out.  It was nuts.  But absolutely fitting that the only way to kill The Mountain was in fire.  The Hound overcame his fear and pushed the Mountain and himself to their fiery deaths.   Again, this really did not have to happen.  The Mountain would’ve died in King’s Landing.  The Hound could’ve lived and never went South.  But, it’s a fitting end to his arc and it was a pretty fun fight to watch. 
  • Jaime finally got to a broken Cersei in the map room. The word was falling apart around them.  I think she kind of figured out that Jaime was dealt a mortal blow.  But he still worked on getting her out of there.  They got the the dragon dungeon as Tyrion instructed but it was blockaded from the destruction.  We knew then that this was the end.  Cersei broke down.  She wanted her baby to live. She wanted to live. Jamie recalled a line from the past where it’s only them and nothing else matters.  The dungeon than caved in on itself and that is the end of these starcrossed siblings.   RIP Jaime and Cersei Lannister.  Did Jaime kill Cersei?  I guess kind of?  He brought her down to her death.  But she wasn’t going to make it out of that city anyway.  So did Dany kill Cersei?  Did Drogon kill Cersei?  Does it matter?  
  • Jon eventually does succeed in pulling back forces.  If he didn’t they would’ve been killed by Dany and Drogon.  He also killed a northern soldier that was about to have his way with a King’s Landing Civilian.  Jon is going to have his hands full in the series finale.  I’m sure we’ll have a lot to discuss this week on how this thing plays out! 
  • Arya was our eye on the ground.  Watching the burning civilians, seeing burnt corpses, covered in ash, failing to save people.  In the end, she finds a horse and flees the torched city.  
I can honestly say, I don’t know where we go from here except that Jon is going to have to go against Dany.  There’s no way he can stand for what happened here.  I’m sure he’ll have Arya and Sansa by his side. Surely, Tyrion.  We still have Bronn out there.  He’s one Lannister down and there’s no Cersei to pay him.  Will he go after Tyrion?  What’s left for Brienne in this story?  To protect the Stark girls?  Who will rally to Dany’s side?  Should we still be listening to Ramsey’s infamous words, “If you think this has a happy ending you haven’t been paying attention.”?  GRRM said the ending would be bittersweet.  Jon killing Dany for the greater good might be bittersweet.  Does Jon live at the end of this tale?  I’m not 100% sure on it, but I’d say his chances are better now.  If anything he will die helping free the realm for the future.  His role to play in this story seems clearer to me than it had before.  

So, one episode to go.  It’s our last chance for predictions.  Will someone end up on the throne at the very end?  Will the throne be gone?  Is the White Walker threat truly gone forever?  Or will this series end with a blue eye as a wink to everyone that everything is cyclical and a promise from HBO that we have more stories to tell?  (Even though the next spinoff is in the past)  

So much to resolve in one final hour and 20 minute episode.  This final season is going to go down as a pretty divisive one.  But, no one can say this episode didn’t bring the spectacle or even the head count.  Let’s reserve final judgement until the last minutes have aired.  But, I’d love to hear what everyone is thinking right now!   I’m sure my opinion will change several times before next Sunday.  But, until then I hope you have enjoyed my ramblings and I’ll see you one more time next week!


Anonymous said...

Thanks MIKE!

From one of my posts last week

"Anonymous said...

OK, so when one supports the notion of breaking the wheel AND elections I can see the idea of the American REvolution. But the "break the wheel" Dany has long since gone. We have a woman who has to have Jon bend the knee and wants him to hide his right to the throne. She has said she was borne to rule. She wants the throne. She is just like the others before her who have wanted the throne. It's their big objective.

I think we are supposed to have seen this change too. I think Varys/Tyrion's conversation displayed this. Her trying to push Jon back into "his place" showed us that. Her having to be talked out of not burning KL to get the throne showed this.

Many examples of her not being the "break the wheel" Dany. So, if the wheel gets broken I don't know how the show can have her be that AND also what they have shown her to become."


I've been saying that Dany is not going to break the wheel that she is going to be the wheel. And now we have come full circle in a way from mad king to mad queen. I've been saying that too.

It occured to me when Jon spurned Dany that she was going to be full on destruction. BTW, it is not clear that their being related is why Jon didn't return her affections. I suspected it, but nothing is said--it could also have been that Jon was considering what others were saying about her being dangerous.


Anonymous said...

Some numbered points below:
1. Clegane Bowl--a bunch of B teamer second stringers fighting. It's relevance was taken away with Brienne becoming 1st string, A Team, #1.
2. Speaking of Brienne--Yea I said that whole Jaime/Brienne thing didn't make sense and this ep proved me right, LOL. I've said before that the Brienne stuff really didn't go down well. She became a writers effort to establish the matriachy and was also a Mary Sue. I don't recall her in the books being all that she is in the show. Honor was her big deal and she gained respect.
3. Seriously, where did all those Dothraki and Unsullied come from? It's like the battle at WF never happened! When I saw that it was obvious that Dany was going to crush KL. Just an example of how the show has totally lost grounding.
4. No snow in Winter, hmm. But hey we now know it's ash that Dany saw in her vision.
5. How is it that Jon is so well respected and yet he couldn't control his OWN troops!!!! Seriously, what kind of dufus wrote this thing! There were a lot of soldiers from the North disobeying Jon.
6. #5 leads into my thoughts for next week's finale. Dany has her magically ever increasing dothraki and unsullied armies and for some reason seems to command what was Jon's army. I know, we're not supposed to remember that when magically Jon gets his army back, right,LOL,LOL. Point being that Dany doesn't have a challenger to the throne if said challenger doesn't have an army. Lannister army is gone and who knows about the army of the North. And of course Dany has a dragon that can decimate everything.
7. Which leads me to Arya, yes Arya. The assassin. And even if Arya kills Dany who knows how her loyal followers will react? Let alone how Drogon might react?

8. Jaime/Cersei--I have always pulled for those 2 to go off together. And when Tyrion had it set up that way I was getting a glimer of hope. I was very good with their ending of love.
9.So, no Sansa on the throne unless we get a time jump.
10. The TV series has pointed to Dany taking the throne all along. It was only the show's reputation for surprises that kept us from accepting it. The fact the show did something that was expected was in a way a surprise. And even the way Dany did it wasn't a surprise. Her being a ruthless killer has been particularly shown lately.
11. NO babies.
12. Arya a Mary Sue--well, the NK's death was done horribly. She flew over the heads of the WW unseen and then dropped a knife from one hand to the other that could easily have been caught by the NK. Arya had years of training and so I don't see her being a Mary Sue anywhere like Rey. Rey is the true embodiement of the term.


Anonymous said...

USA Today comments

From the above:
"After being ineffectual at the Battle of Winterfell and against the Iron Fleet, Drogon has suddenly become a weapon of mass destruction that no scorpion crossbow can hit. Like every other plot device on "Thrones" the past few seasons, the dragons were useless, until they were needed. "

There are many good points in this article. Such as--really dragons can burn stone, LOL.

Especially about Arya. I"m not saying Arya is a Mary Sue but how is it she can survive being burned and crushed by stone many times. It was laughable and is similar to NK death.


Mike V. said...

Breaking the Wheel - They had 2 options to go with for Dany and they went the Mad Queen route (which probably means that's where GRRM is headed too). Yes you were dead on on this one. I still was holding onto hope, but at the same time I've been conflicted with what I "want" to happen and what "should" happen. And I kept saying I want to be caught offguard. lol There's a chance that wheel can still break anyway. Lannisters and Baratheons are essentially wiped out. (Tyrion, Gendry remain) Houses don't really matter now. It might be up to Jon to help break it.

Not gonna argue with the USA Today article. There are so many inconsistencies in these final seasons it's laughable. They basically struggled with how to tell the story they wanted to tell, get the players where they needed to be and certain people survive things they have no right surviving. I have new respect for GRRM and his struggles to finish the books in a satisfying way.

I'll get to the numbered comments next.

Mike V. said...

1. Clegane Bowl - its relevance was taken away that it didn't need to happen. Mountain would've died with or without The Hound's help. He said it himself to Arya. Why bother dying? Basically, The Hound needed to do this. He knew he was going to die. But it was kind of silly. Looked awesome though.

2. I hate that term Mary Sue (mainly because I don't believe Rey is one and I will continue to fight against it!). Brienne didn't get as far in her story as she did in the show. We have no idea where it's going. Brienne's story has been better in the show than the books in my opinion. (Book 4 stuff was boring and dragged) The only thing that made no sense was getting with Jaime and getting dumped in a 20 minute span. It was just pacing again.

3. We were told that HALF of the Dothraki were lost in the battle of winterfell. Maybe unsullied too. But I can't argue with losing grounding. It's all pacing...and placing people where they need to be for the story over common sense. Getting to the end was Rushed. But getting to the end was also difficult and I think that's where GRRM is suffering.

4. Yep. agreed.

5. Yeah...that was crazy. And it was the northern soldier he had to kill when he tried to force himself on the civilian. They all just had blood lust.

6. lol on Jon magically getting his army back. It's a good point. I think we're not getting another battle. I think the rest of the "GAME" is going to be fought in intimate scenes. Jon may have to face her in a smaller scale. But I could be wrong.

7. I think the dragon has to go at this point too. Last week I'm talking about procreation of dragons, now I'm ordering the death of Drogon! lol That or somehow Jon uses his Targaryen ways to lure Drogon from Dany??? longshot I know.

8. I knew you'd like that ending for the Lannister twins. It kind of worked for me too. Just don't know why they had to make Cersei so sympathetic over the years. She's a caricature in the books.

9. We will get a Stark reunion in the final episode. Doesn't necessarily mean Sansa on the Throne. But I have to think we're going to see some kind of time jump before the end of the episode. The ending is supposed to be bittersweet but Book 7 is supposed to be called "A DREAM OF SPRING" lol there has to be hope for the future. (though I still like the idea of someone's eye turning blue as an ending shot lol)

10. Yes they have shown it...that's why I thought they would subvert expectations by having her not do it. Yes it was her arc to take the throne. And she might take it temporarily. But surely, that's not how it ends.

11. Nope. Not that we know of.

12. Funny...didn't even see your Rey comment before I made mine. I hate the term and won't discuss it. Gets too political and I avoid political discussions on the blog. lol (or at least I try to)

Anonymous said...

Endgame===saw this weekend. I'd give it a 5 out of 10 mostly because of how Disney is killing the Marvel franchise and esp. Thor.

Thor--I find this characters' treatment the absolute worst along with his associated characters. They are rewriting history really. It really should be openly criticized by fans of the mythology and real Viking history. Iron Man and the other made up characters have no basis in real history and so if they want to make them all fairies flying around being swatted at with a fly swatter--I don't care. But, Thor is different and they show no respect.

Time travel, again, LOL. That's what GoT needs in finale, LOL.


Anonymous said...

I've been reading some other reviews and it is surprising how many thought that Jaime should have stayed with Brienne. Cersei has always been his true love. And going back to her doesn't make him a bad man nor does it take away from his redemptive arc. And Cersei has always loved him, just that she goes power crazy and forgets.

One thing is that with them gone more time is left for other characters.


Mike V. said...

End Game - I fully expected you to dislike the movie so this is not a surprise especially when I saw what they did to Thor. I questioned the Thor thing too, but after thinking about it and watching again (via PLEX and very bad quality) I'm more on board with it.

Thor doesn't have to follow the Norse Mythology. In the MCU the earthbound Norse mythology is based on people worshiping these gods with their primitive technology (i.e. Odin may have visited Midgard/Earth over the ages. To mere mortals they would seem like gods. I'll have to find the quote or description of scenes that covers it) They weren't gods but just powerful alien beings. That was all in the first Thor movie. Time Travel was expected in this movie as well. It's all we theorized about. BTW....MJ and I discussed End Game a bit in last week's General Thread (as this is a Game of Thrones specific thread!! lol)

Thrones - It's not about true love with Jaime. It's showing his redemptive Arc. Cersei brought out the worst side of him. Brienne showed his potential. In the end, Jaime admitted he's a bad person and went back to Cersei. Tyrion shaped it around the love for his unborn child but I don't know. I'm fine with's just how quickly it happened. Like I said...Pacing is the show's worst enemy these past 2 seasons.

I thought the same about less characters for the end.

Also...there was no prince of dorne in this episode. I wonder if that means he'll make an appearance in the finale? Seems a little late to introduce a new character. Unless they're going to have all 7 kingdoms represented for anointing of the True King/Queen/President/Representative of the People/etc... lol

Mike V. said...

Forgot to comment on the Jon and his Aunt thing. This is the worst thing about the show this season. If you don't watch the post episode commentaries on the streaming sites you miss what the showrunner's implied intentions are with each scene. If it's not implicit then it might not be done well! Ever since Jon told Dany about who his parents were it's supposed to be implied that Jon is weirded out that they're related and even more weirded out that Dany is all, "NBD, I still love you like crazy, but don't take my throne!"

I mean it's kinda there, but you can't get there without help. Just like Targaryens are the only ones that can ride dragons. If you don't read the book you don't know that. But Dany knows that and Jon is "slow on the uptake". Never implied in the show....but they bring this post-game commentary after the episode. lol

I still love the show and I respect the effort it takes to produce this thing and to try and end it without a detailed blueprint from the guy that started it all. But, there is some cringeworthy leaps going on in the final episodes. When all is said and done, this will still be one of the greatest achievements in TV history. (Cue: It's not TV, it's HBO!)

Anonymous said...

Twitter upset over last ep, LOL. Now this is the typical stuff where fans aren't getting what they expected toward the end. NOT the stuff that bugs me. I mean if Dany hadn't burned them all, I would have been surprised but it wouldn't have made me mad.


Mike V. said...

Forgot another thing. Tyrion and Jaime's final scene together was perfection. Mirrored to both of their imprisonments. Tyrion commits treason to save him this time. But then Tyrion talks about his life being meaningless to save thousands. And then he also talks about how his brother got him through childhood. Good stuff. Great send-off. I do worry for Tyrion next week. Though with Jaime dead, does it matter if he committed treason?

Oh are up in a tizzy about the ep. This stuff was never going to satisfy everyone. Something this big though? I have to guess that if they went this direction, this is GRRM's plan too. He'd just probably get there in a more satisfying way.

This is how it's like LOST. People have built up their endings in their head. In some ways this might be worse than LOST because people have been reading these books since the 90s and are finally getting an ending. When it doesn't end the way they expect here come the complaints. But people when reading George's books would through their books across the room at scenes they didn't like. If you spend 7 books rooting for Dany and then she goes Mad Queen? Yeah people are gonna be upset. Me? I always thought it was a possibility. I just thought the subversion would go the other way. lol That we would be made to think she'd do it but then she wouldn't. Or it would be a concentrated attack. In hindsight it makes a lot of sense and all the pieces are falling into place now. I always wondered how things could move forward with Jon being the ultimate heir and Dany having thought she was her whole life. Then they fell in love...I thought maybe they'll co-rule. NOPE! Incest is certainly something frowned upon in most civilizations. Just not Targaryens and within Jaime/Cersei's 2 person circle. lol But Jon was raised a Stark. And Jon having a reason for being brought back to life outside of the threat of an endless winter and The Walking Dead 3.0.....this is big enough for it to be important enough that he exists.

I'm in the acceptance phase of this plot movement. But it is funny to see all the quotes from Dany contradicting this plot as well. lol "I don't want to be queen of the ashes" being a key one.

Anonymous said...

Speaking of making me mad, ie what would make me mad at the finale list:
1. Little very little, can't really think of anything.

Now, what might make me disappointed:
1. Sansa in KL without time jump.
2. I'll have to think about what else since the expectations are kind of wide open.

So, for the finale:
1. Will Dany kill Tyrion
2. Will Arya kill Dany
3. Will Tyrion plot with Jon and Arya to kill Dany
4. Will the Dornish or Iron Borne get involved supporting either side
5. Who will pay the taxes now since Dany's killed a bunch.
6. So, is it going to become the Essos of the East, LOL.
7. Will Jon ride Drogon?
8. Will Jon go North where Thormond says he belongs.

The big surprise for me would be if Jon takes the throne.

I somewhat/very mildly expect a continuation of the story in a way where the game of thrones is always in play.

There are really now only 3 main characters(Dany, Jon, Tyrion) with a close second in Arya then Sansa and Greyworm.

Tyrion is the only character I care about now, but even less so since he's been downgraded lately. Bron was a favorite but they turned him into an assassin.

BTW, Didn't Bran predict something for Jamie?


Anonymous said...

After show comments. Yea, that kind of stinks, doesn't it. You would hope that it is conveyed with good writing and acting. Given they had TWO years to do this you would think some critical elements are in the show. And I have closed captioning on so I don't miss key dialog points.

Great point on "queen of ashes".

I am also at the acceptance phase. That's why I'm not going to get mad at anything going forward.

BTW, I didn't include Sam in the above character refernce since I don't expect to see him again. And Sansa only with a time jump.


Anonymous said...

Re the entire series.

I thought B&B had this series laid out from the beginning. Each season defined with a plan. At least that's what they said a few times. Given that and the 2 years to do the final season some criticism is fair.

I've enjoyed the show tremendously. And in large part this blog has made it so much more!! Thanks Mike!


Anonymous said...

Endgame--what happened to Gamora. We were all asking that since she was there and then not. Didn't see what happened to her.


Mike V. said...

Crap I had a whole response and lost it. Not happy about that. Don’t really want to retype. Lol

I’ll try the short version.

Still in support of No Throne in the end. But it’ll take some work to get there and killing Dany. But think you could be right too. But yeah…Jon going North seems like it’s in play too unless that conversation was just to represent how he wishes he could but can’t.

I think all 7 kingdoms should be represented in the final episode. Varys definitely got word out. So that’s the “end game”.

I say all remaining Starks are still main characters on the show. It started with the Starks and they’ll be involved in the end. I agree with the treatment of Tyrion. He’s been a bit downgraded, but I hoped that it was in support of his role in the future of the realm. They had to keep him alive. Speaking of which…Bronn. I hope it doesn’t end with him killing Tyrion. But, I don’t know if they go off and are best buds now. I could see him threatening to kill Tyrion…maybe podrick saves the day one more time there. I’d hate for Bronn to die, but it might work in that scenario.

Bran’s prediction. It was more of a question “How do you know if there’s an after?” Not sure if he saw Jaime’s end at KL. We assumed it was about the Battle of Winterfell at the time.

Sam – I think you’re right we may have seen the end of him. Stinks. Maybe we do get a shot of him writing A Song of Ice and Fire (since he’s George’s proxy)

My thoughts on final scenes - Saw a good theory that maybe if Dany is killed Drogon flies away and lays some dragon eggs as an ending shot. (Maybe to Valyria). Throw on top of that my thought that we might see an eye turn blue or something. White Walkers and Dragons live on as threats for another day/era. Or maybe even Drogon dies but then we find out he/she laid eggs. This story is over, but it will happen again one day. I kinda like that.

Dave and Dan (D&D) or B&W (Beniof and Weiss lol) …(b and b threw me off lol) I think they had the first few seasons mapped out. But then freaked out when they were going to get to books 4 and 5. They ended up adapting them pretty well. I can only imagine they had no idea what they were going to do when they got past the books. For awhile they said they’d keep making this show as long as George kept the material coming. George didn’t, so they had to make alternative plans.

I definitely have enjoyed our conversations Richard! I hope we can find another show that we both enjoy to discuss in the future. You might need to sign up for Disney Plus so I can support and you can butcher The Mandolorian (new Star Wars series) and the MCU TV series that are coming. Lol

ENDGAME (seriously, we should discuss this in the other thread!!! SPOILERS FOR ANYONE READING THIS THREAD!) - 2014 Gamora is MIA. Did she get dusted? Did she survive since she made her choice to fight against Thanos? I suspect the latter and that Asguardians of the Galalxy (Guardians 3 lol) will be about finding and recruiting her to the group.

Anonymous said...

Song of Fire and Ice and A Dream of Spring.

Well, we've often speculated about Dany/Jon re Fire/Ice. But, there were others too. Such as the WW and NK being the titular reference. Would you call it a Song if one kills the other? The title kind of makes it like they won't kill each other. Not saying one or the other won't be killed. AND, AND the title invokes the notion of love. So, Jon's doesn't seem on board with that. Bottom line to me is confusing to apply.

Re Spring--we've often speculated a new baby. Still in the cards too.

One ending I'm hoping for is a Dany/Jon happily ever after with their baby son and let the aftermath just deal with itself. Devestation has happened before.

Another thought is that the whole "Jon is a Targaryan" being exposed is simply to put a wedge between him an Dany. Setting up drama/friction and nothing more really.

BTW, for all those Dany lovers who thought she wasn't like this--How about the Loot Train attack and the killing of Sam's relatives in cold blood! I really thought Sam's discourse on that should have educated people. But, some only see what they want to see.

Serious bloggers should defend the show re Dany in this regard as there were a lot of clues and actions spanning more than this season.


Mike V. said...

Song of Ice and Fire - Melisandre says in the show "I have brought Fire and Ice together" when Jon came to Dragonstone last season. I think the implications are clear. lol But some romances end up being tragic tales. Just look at Romeo and Juliet. A song of Ice and Fire may not have a happy ending for them.

Spring - true on the baby. Well Dany did say this battle was to end future tyranny. So this destruction was to end future destruction. That said, the city surrendered and she didn't care. I don't think there can be a happily ever after for those 2 now. I keep coming back to the fact that Jon had to be brought back for a reason. His claim to the throne has to be important for a reason (and not just motivation for Dany to destroy a city). Melissandre had very clear predictions/visions of Varys, Arya and Jon. Arya to kill the Night King, Varys to proclaim Jon as the true heir leading to his death. The only open question is Jon. What's Jon's role? When Dany sacked King's Landing (destroyed it) and we see Jon's seems pretty clear what his role needs to be.

Agree on Dany's Loot Train attack. She showed both sides along the way. Dragon tendencies, but hope for a better future. She had a magical rebirth. Jon had a magical rebirth. She believes she's destined for something. Jon doesn't care what his destiny is. It seems clear who we should be rooting for at this point. lol

I see most clues to Dany's tendencies happening in the past 2 seasons which sum up Dave and Dan's END GAME for the TV Series. But it has to be based on GRRM's thoughts for the ending as well. So they just ramped up the intensity on Dany's tendencies moreso in the end. But there are clues all the way from the beginning.

S1 - Burning Mirri Mazz what's her face in the funeral pyre.
S2 - House of the Undying and killing her hand maiden and what's his face in the locked vault.
S3 - Kill the masters in Astohpor. DRACARYS! (we rooted for it there though)
S4/S5 (can't remember when stuff happened) - Crucify the Masters, behead the dude S6 - Destruction of the Dosh Khaleen and the Dothraki masters.
S7 - Loot Train and aftermath.

It's definitely been there.

Anonymous said...

If we have a blue eye wink, YOU will get credit here!

BTW, I didn't think Targaryans had green eyes, I thought they were purple! So, the Arya killing green eyes doesn't seem to make sense.


Mike V. said...

Lol ok!

In the books targs have purple eyes. They tried purple contacts on show but it didn’t work so they gave it up lol

Anonymous said...

So, no green eyes here re Arya and Dany.

I know, I know, I'm focusing on a detail and those just don't matter any more.

Re other shows. Well, I don't watch netflix.
HBO, Showtime, TMC, Starz

there are some others, but I forget them right now.


Mike V. said...

Mel already confirmed Arya shut the eyes of green and brown eyes. Blue was emphasized for night king.

I’ll cover tv options when I am typing on a computer lol

How dumb am I? I totally missed that Varys was trying to poison Dany. That’s why the girl Martha was saying she wouldn’t eat and that the guards suspect something. Lol crazy.

Anonymous said...

Varys--how did you find out he was trying to poison Dany?

I mentioned the eye color because so many recappers/reviewers are saying the green eyes of Dany are next for Arya.


Mike V. said...

Varys - I saw a meme about it where they just showed the dialogue of that scene. I thought she was just monitoring Dany's state. But Varys implied "the greater the risk the greater the reward" and that "we'll try later".

Yeah...I think Arya's "EYES" quest is done. Mel already confirmed she killed people with Green Eyes and Brown Eyes and the Blue was still to come. (Night King) But that doesn't mean Dany isn't last on her list. I mean it has to be Jon or Arya. But I think they really gotta give Jon this one. It'll be most emotionally complicated for him at this point.

Another thing..I gotta look up the quote but on one podcast I listened to today they are saying that the Valonquor (sp) prophecy was fulfilled with a twist which is how most prophecies work. Something like "while you're drowning out your years, the Valonquor (younger brother) will hold you by the neck and choke the life out of you" you have to take some creative liberties with the choking part. But he did have his hand around her neck as they embraced. Cersei was mean to Tyrion all his life because she thought he was going to be the one to kill her. Jaime did lead her down to their deaths (she would've died anyway) and she did start crying which was new for her. I think it was their attempt to make a play at that prophecy....(that was only in books and not in show...they cut that part off of the maggy the frog prophecy)

Anonymous said...

S-T-R-E-T-C-H on the prophecy there. LOL. I would love to like it, but can't.

I am seeing a LOT of misinformation from professional writers about things. I don't think these writers know the books for sure nor do they seem to have been watching the show in detail. The EYES thing was to develop a theory of Arya killing Dany. I'm with you, we're done with that but she could still kill Dany.

I'm not sure Dany will be killed though. The show went out of its' way to make us believe she will be killed.

You could argue that Dany winning the way she did is Bittersweet. IE, she lost who she wanted to be to gain what she wanted.

BTW, I'm expecting Gendry to show up re Arya.


Mike V. said...

LOL yeah it's a stretch but it seems like it was partly intentional to pay homage to that prophecy.

Yeah agreed on the "professional writers". I still see thinks where people mix up white walkers and wights. I get it from a commoner, but if you're writing for a major publication, know your stuff! lol

Very true on Dany being killed. I just feel at some point the subversion has to stop and the good guys have to win. RIGHT? lol The Starks winning something in the end seems like something that would be deserved. It can't be a coincidence that we have 4 remaining Starks in the end when everyone else's families have been decimated. I think Sansa/Arya/Bran will survive the rest of the show. Jon is still up in the air. But I've raised his survival rate over 50% after this week. lol

Good point on the Bittersweet being that Dany wins. Or it could be that Dany wins, but the way she wins and is eventually killed is bittersweet. Jon not becoming the ruler of the 7 kingdoms even though everything points that way could be bittersweet. The fact that all these people we liked and followed died in the end is bittersweet. That's how I've always seen it. Some of our favorites will die, some will live. Hence...BITTERSWEET. lol

Oh yeah...I meant to say it in the recap. There's still hope for Arya/Gendry after this one! I'm sure Arya would still want the relationship on her terms. She ain't gonna be no lady. lol

Anonymous said...

Dany being killed would be so much more bittersweet if Jon were still romantically interested in her. IE, if she were emotionally attached to someone and at least somewhat beloved by those characters we care about then her being killed would be more impactful.

At this point her death would not illicit the same feelings of loss as if she were loved. In many ways whether it will be Arya, Jon or Tyrion killing Dany the tragedy is reduced after the last Ep.

And because of the senseless murders and the resultant feelings her death moves from tragic to just. I can't get bittersweet out of that vs what it would have been otherwise.

Therefore, given all of the above plus the obvious clues about her death, I've started wondering if her death will happen.


Mike V. said...

Well....I guess this could get really tragic and Dany could go after Sansa which would trigger Jon. That would really suck! In other words, there still be more twists to come.

But outside of that...the series finale itself doesn't have to be bittersweet for the ending of A Song of Ice and Fire to be bittersweet. The "bittersweetness" may have already happened. lol

It really depends how it's all executed. If we were more invested in these crazy transitions that happened over the past 12 episodes (Season 7, 8) we may have felt a more emotional response to Dany flipping. We knew the tendency was there, but there wasn't enough room to show that transition from Anakin to Darth Vader. lol Granted, Anakin's jump to completely subservient to the Emperor happened within a minute too. (yes, the transition was gradual...but he was doing what he thought was right one minute, then kneeling the next)

Yep, it's definitely worth considering if it's too obvious for her to die at this point as well. Maybe what you joked about yesterday will come to pass. Bran will affect time in the past and Dany's destruction will never happen! lol (if only that ink wasn't already dry!)

Mike V. said...

Bran (time traveling): Jon, I forgot to tell you. You have to take one for the team or your Aunt is going to "burn them all"! LOL

Anonymous said...

Love the Anakin to Vader reference. Yea, it was the Emporer who fooled him kind of like a frog in a pot. By the time he realized he had gone to a bad place it was too late.

Jon's character is kind of wide open as to what he might do.

Much like your idea of the blue eye wink(courtesy of Jurassic Park) I think the show could indicate a continuation of the game of thrones. With Dany being just one of the many who have sat on the Iron Throne.

One reason I say that is the show has not really embraced the book's mythological elements and prophesies. They have been elements on the edges. So, the notion of TPTWP, etc I don't see happening. I don't see Dany's rule that much of a finale reflecting a huge change for the lands.

I've been thinking lately of comparing what Dany did with walking through the fire to Melissandre's shadow death baby and Beric's resurrections.

I thought Dany started changing when she flipped to her back for sex with Drogo. And particularly in things relative to her brother. She fully consumed the code of the clan.

BTW, I can't recall who gave Dany those eggs.


Anonymous said...

Looks like BIG NEWS



Mike V. said...

Yeah, they hinted at the "dragon" being there way back in season 1 when she showed no remorse for having Viserys killed with the golden crown. It's more around how the show treated such things then vs. now. We were meant to praise many of these moments because she was doing bad things to mainly bad people. There were some moments of conflict along the way where we weren't sure she made the right call (executing the Meereneese to the town hissing. Crucifying the masters. Burning the Tarlys against Tyrion's advice.) But other times it was all part of her outsmarting her enemies and we cheered it. The difference here is that there really is no reason for her to continue burning KL after they won except that she made it personal and didn't care.

But yes...magic was involved in her surviving that funeral pyre. (the show turned it into a super power when the books said it was a magical combination of everything with the dragon eggs, the sacrifice and all of that)

TPTWP...yeah I don't think we'll get a clear answer. Some are suggesting it's Arya now. I don't think she has the prophetic words of being born amidst salt and smoke under the burning star and all that. Those still both seem to apply to Dany and Jon.

But yeah...I like a wink to things not being over for good. Leaves it open for HBO to do something in the future if they want and it's just always a fun little ending twist. But....I think whatever happens with the Iron Throne has to be definitive. Something has to change there or it seems like all of this effort was pointless. I don't think Dany's rule is where it ends. But hey, who knows at this point? lol

Nice on the Blood Moon working title. It might be just that. A working title. Maybe it'll be called "BLOOD MOON: A GAME OF THRONES STORY" lol

Anonymous said...

Fans want another Season 8, over 300K sign petition.

It seems more people than I thought really believed that Dany was a "good guy" totally buying into her breaking the wheel and being a great queen, etc. I really find it sad that so many people have gone over the edge with this. No wonder our politics is so uncivil. Our people seem to be so selfish that they want life their way and protest if it isn't.

I stopped thinking of her as a "good guy" during season 1. For one thing Ned was a good guy and he was killed because of it. The juxtaposition was clear to me.


Mike V. said...

So tired of petitions and crybabies. I saw this too. Same thing happened with Last Jedi. I think mostly people are upset over the pacing of this season. And I get that. But it's done...let's just see how it wraps up and move on. It makes sense for Dany's character in the books and the show...they just didn't spend enough time getting there. I get that and agree with it. But it is what it is!

I always thought of Dany as one we need to root for. But mainly I thought of that in dealing with the DEAD. I thought that battle would be drawn more out. Obviously, the writers (and George) were hinting at her "dragon" side all along. But, we've been trained to root for her and most of her dragon-like tendencies. We certainly questioned it more when she killed the Tarlys and when she had the Meereen person executed a few seasons back. But yeah, she was never a saint. lol

I definitely see how these last 2 seasons could've been drawn out to 3 or 4 seasons and it might have felt more like THRONES. But the problem is...that's what is taking George so long to write it (i'm guessing). He doesn't know how to get everyone from Point A to Point B in a satisfying or surprising way. With Thrones speeding past the scenes that made the show what it is (lots of scenes of 2 people talking and building character motivations out)…it's been all spectacle with no substance. They want us to rely on the character buildup we've had for 6 or so seasons. It works sometimes more than others. I'm still enjoying this season, but I'm now really hoping George finishes the books so we can see how it was meant to be done!

Anonymous said...

A good article

With all that GRRM is doing and the flack from this show's ending I would be surprised if he does end it. I could see another book, but not a final book.

Yes, the show wanted us to view Dany as a good guy and root for her. I didn't buy into it as you know. I've also not bought into the Jon character a lot. I don't know if that's the actor or the character not really being..."the guy". You know the one was just successful and stood out.

The show decided to go the matriarchal route and I'm not sure where George was heading.

BTW, the Jaime/Briene stuff was fan service to me. I could see her wanting him but I never felt he loved her. Much more of a respect thing. Recall the bath scene years ago. It would be crazy if she were to birth a Lannister, LOL. If that happened then it would have been much more than fan service.


Anonymous said...

OK, So here' my latest predictions.
1. Arya or Jon kill Dany
2. Bran and Sansa get involved somehow. could even be a little silly.
3. Jon heads North
4. Drogon flies off to have eggs.
5. Sansa and Tyrion end up ruling somehow
6. Gendry(new title) gets involved along with others at his level to serve the new King/Queen.
7. #6 is a way of showing the wheel rolling along, LOL. Got to have government, LOL


Mike V. said...

UGH...I posted a response to this yesterday. Guess it didn't go through. Don't even remember what I said. lol

Started writing this a couple hours ago then forgot to finish again! (I saw you commented again too so I'll get to that in a minute)

George pretty much has said that for the main characters the show and the books should end up in the same place. It's the secondary characters where there's a bit of a ripple effect going on for deaths that haven't happened in the book. Arya killing the Night King? Well there's no night king in the books. lol At least not one that we know of. So that may play out different. But Dany's arc will probably include this beat. Just will be a little more convincing in the books.

As for Sansa ruling the North or whatever her fate is....Sansa is still in the Vale in the books so we haven't seen a different side of her yet. Tough to tell.

Oh I remember what I said in my old comment. Birth a Lannister. I laughed again that every time a woman sleeps with someone on the show we assume she's preggers! lol It has never happened except in Cersei's instance...and that time we didn't theorize! lol But I can see where you're going with the fan service.

Mike V. said...

1. Agree...has to be one of them. I'm leaning towards Jon...then maybe he walks away from it all after that and heads North.
2. Yeah...there has to be a meeting of the Starks before all is over.
3. LOL...I didn't see this before my #1 comment.
4. Yes unless he/she's already laid them. I think we need those dragon eggs and a blue eye! But I won't complain if it doesn't happen.
5. Ruling "SOMETHING" yes....They will be part of what helps Westeros in the end. I think bran will be involved too since he has the knowledge of History and what to avoid.
6. Yeah surely we'll see Gendry again...and hopefully with Arya. Still don't know if it'll be a King/Queen though.
7. NEW GOVERNMENT!!! LOL We'll see on Sunday who is right!

Btw...I saw BBT series finale...we can comment on other blog post if you watched. Of course our theories were right. lol It was a good wrap up.

Anonymous said...

BBT, waiting on wife to return to watch. I can't wait. Don't expect much surprise.