Monday, May 6, 2019

Game of Thrones: Season 8 Episode 4 - The Last of the Starks

Hello friends and welcome back to Game of Thrones: Endgame!  We’re in the final 3 now.  Things are pretty much progressing as we thought they would following the Battle of Winterfell.  Of course, it’s not without some shockers in there along the way!  The opening half was lighter in tone for the most part with some serious undertones.  Then?  STUFF. GOT. REAL!   It’s shaping up to be one helluva episode 5 for Miguel Sipochnik’s final directorial return.  This was a decent episode with some great moments.  But, as expected it’s more of a table setter for the final showdown.  And a reinforcement of some conflicts within the larger conflicts.  The Game of Thrones is alive whether everyone involved likes it or not.  And if you play that Game?  You win or you die.  Let’s dive in for the 3rd to last time!

Discussion Points

Winterfell - Battle Fallout / Celebration / High School Gossip

They mourned their dead.  Jon gave a rousing speech.  One of unification.  They celebrated winning the war against the dead.  Rumors spread.  Threats were made, battle plans made, goodbyes (final?) were given and long simmering romances fulfilled.  Highlights:
  • Opening Credits - the ice was down and stopped at Winterfell.  Any hopes for the Long Night to continue are fading.  Though Tormund’s farewell as he headed North could’ve been seen as a little foreshadowing.  To Jon’s question if this is farewell he responded, “you never know.”  I can’t imagine this is the end of Tormund on the show.  But, I also give a low percentage of them bringing in a northern threat again.  Unless it’s some twist in the final moments of the series to indicate that the Night King and/or White Walker threat isn’t gone for good. 
  • Funeral was pretty moving with each of our primary dead being mourned by the one they had the biggest connection with.  Jon burning Lyanna Mormont was moving since she took her mother’s namesake.  Also, Lyanna was the one that believed in Jon when no one else would.  Jon’s speech about uniting together in honor of those that fought for their right to live was a rousing speech.  One of great leaders.  One that inspires.  Something we’ve never heard from Dany.  This became an undertone of the entire episode.  It seems they are finally going to pit Jon against Dany in the end.  Will Dany have a change of heart?  Be tempered by Jon as Tyrion suggested?  Or will it truly come to them having to be forced to eliminate the other threat?  Seems more Game of Thrones-ish for something like that to go down than Jon and Dany defeating Cersei and then they live happily ever after.  There’s only 2 eps left but a lot still to happen.  I’m bouncing all around here.  Let’s talk about the party!
  • So many great moments at this party.  A rousing revival of Tyrion’s game of “I NEVER” including drunk Brienne and Jaime!  With Pod watching and giggling and getting looks from the ladies.  Too funny.  Of course, when Tyrion called Brienne’s virginity into the fold things took a turn.  Jaime got jealous of Tormund (hilarious) and then went after Brienne when she fled the game.  And things took their natural course.  Way to go guys! Was always rooting for you.  Only, it scares me of what may come next for them.  We’ll get there.  
  • Gendry and the Hound have a moment when he was looking for Arya.  The Hound had the best lines of the night again.  But it turns out he was rooting for Arya/Gendry to be together.  Good times.   Dany had something else in mind.  She’s playing the game and trying to earn some love.  While she is anti-Baratheon she was Pro-Gendry and named him a Baratheon and lord of Storm’s End.  Very emotional moment.  Though it didn’t end the way Gendry hoped when he professed his love for Arya.  She doesn’t want to be a lady.  And it turns out she still has unfinished business in King’s Landing with The Queen.  But I’m getting ahead of myself again.  Not sure why Gendry didn’t just say something like, “I love you for how you are.  You don’t need to be a traditional Lady!  Just be with me!”   But you know, men are stupid!  Plus, she probably still would’ve refused due to her other plans.  Will there be a happy ending for those 2 in the end?  We’ll see.
  • Sansa and The Hound had a nice moment.  Of course it’s also telling of who Sansa has become as well. The Hound spoke of how Sansa has changed and said she should’ve gone with him when he offered back in the Battle of Blackwater.  She said if she hadn’t had her dealings with Littlefinger and Ramsey she would still be the little bird he once knew her as.  She is no longer that girl.  Oh boy!
  • Dany slowly realizes that the room belongs to Jon.  Tormund spoke impressively about what Jon had done in battle.  Riding a dragon, being an overall great leader, even rising from the dead.  He tried to get Jon to drink the Giant’s milk.  Hilarious.  Meanwhile Dany realized how alone she truly was.  She is threatened by the information Jon told her a couple episodes back.  And she confronted Jon in this episode.  They tried to just love each other like they did before the knowledge but they had to break down and chat.  Jon says he’s committed to her.  He doesn’t want the throne.  Dany says he won’t have a choice and asks Jon to swear to secrecy.  Get Bran and Sam to shut up and don’t tell your sisters.  You know from all those High School TV shows that if you don’t want to a rumor to get out so badly, it’s just going to get out faster.  Classic Saved By the Bell etiquette 101.  And the conversation didn’t end well.  Jon says he’s going to tell his sisters.  They’re his family.  She says I told you how to avoid all of the drama.  She essentially threatened him.  Oh boy.  In her defense, she seems to understand Sansa being a threat more than Jon.  
  • Let’s talk about the Jaime/Tyrion debrief session for a minute.  Tyrion talking about Jaime having to climb a mountain was hilarious!  But things took a quick turn when Bronn showed up.  He meant business.  When that arrow flew out at Jaime I was scared.  When you’re in the end game every close shave could be a last.  But alas, Bronn’s threats will live to see another day.  Tyrion brings up the whole “I’ll double it” proposition.  Bronn is willing to bet on the dragon queen to still win the war.  He’s promised River Run by Cersei. Tyrion is promising High Garden which Jaime thinks is ludicrous.  I’m not sure Tyrion will be able to pay that debt, but I guess it all depends who he asks after said war is done (IF they win).  I’m not liking this Bronn situation.  He also found out that Jaime and Brienne had their moment.  So there is leverage there now too.  We’ll see where this goes.  
  • Then there’s the battle plan.  Dany and Sansa are at odds.  Jon stands by Dany.   Sansa wants to rest the soldiers.  Dany wants to move now.  Their plan was going to be siege tactics.  They’d starve the city and make the people turn on Cersei.  Dragons stopping shipment of food into King’s Landing.  That plan went to hell by the end of the ep, didn’t it?  They spoke of Yara joining the fold as well, but I’m not sure how many ships she’s supposed to have at this point.   But Jon, Davos, the remaining Dothraki and Unsullied are going to march down the King’s Road while Dany takes their ships back to Dragonstone with the dragons.  
  • This led to a meeting of the Starks in the Godswood.  Arya talked of respecting Jon’s decision to bend the knee.  They needed Dany’s support to win the war of the North.  But now he should side with family.  He’s the last Stark and should remain in Winterfell.  Of course this is a trigger word for Jon now.  Bran gives him the choice to opt out of telling them.  But, he has to tell them.  He honors family and must tell them the truth.  I really thought for a minute they were going to make us sit through the telling of the tale one more time.  And, honestly, I would’ve welcomed it again!  But no, they were told off screen.  And he asked Bran to tell them.  
  • We’re spared from their reactions, but they both swore not to tell a soul. I believed Arya, but knew better than to trust Sansa.  She’s got the Littlefinger tactics going through her mind now.  Anyway, we see Arya catch up to the Hound.  They both speak of how they’re marching to their ends.  They both have unfinished business in King’s Landing.  CLEGANE BOWL!!!!! IT’S HAPPENING FOLKS!  FAN SERVICE AT ITS BEST!  But, other than that, Arya did not set aside her mission to kill Cersei.  Only delayed it.  Is it too easy though?  Arya kills Cersei?  Does she meet Jaime on the journey down and get a face?   Or does she have to compete with Jaime to take out Cersei?   Granted, Tyrion has motivation to do it as well.  Hell, even Grey Worm does now.  I know I know...getting ahead of myself.   But, I really hope Arya isn’t going to her death!  Man I’d be fired up if she doesn’t live! 
  • Oh man, I forgot in that farewell to Tormund, Jon asked him to take Ghost with him.  That was rough guys!  Yes, Direwolves belong in the North.  Tormund hinted that so does Jon.  (You’ve heard it here first guys. This was foreshadowing that Jon is the next Night King!  I’m joking!  Am I?  I think so!).  But, Ghost whining when Jon walks by.  This was the equivalent of Chewbacca not hugging Leia at the end of The Force Awakens (RIP Peter Mayhew).  How could Jon not give a proper goodbye to Ghost?  For all of those that’s hoped Ghost and Nymeria would join the fight in King’s Landing, we’re one wolf down.  
  • Then there was the Samwell/Jon goodbye.  Holy crap, Gilly is pregnant with Sam’s child and they want to name him (if it’s a him) Jon!  Cue the waterworks!   Jon’s response was great, but he should’ve said “Don’t you mean Aegon? Come on, you don’t know yet Gilly?  You’re the one that figured it out!”  These farewells were rough and give me a very rough feeling about how this is all going to end.   Were these final goodbyes?  I don’t think Jon is long for this world, but he has some purpose to fulfill before all is said and done.  I’m very conflicted with how I want this to end.  But the joke is really that it doesn’t matter how we want it to end!  And that’s what we really want.  
  • Sansa and Tyrion have a discussion about trusting/not trusting Dany.  Tyrion urges Sansa to reconsider her thoughts as she will be holding the North while Jon is with Dany in the South. (Potentially permanently)  The North has to be aligned with the Ruler of the 7 Kingdoms for peace to occur.  Sansa uses this as her opportunity to start the gossip bug.  Off screen she tells Tyrion the truth of Jon’s parents and claim to the throne.  Tyrion of course tells Varys (as Sansa most likely expects him to).   And that’s that.  The word is out! 

Battle Preamble 

So onward South they head.  Jon and Davos march out with their crew.  And once again the boat journey to Dragonstone happens in seconds.  We know better than to trust a smiling Greyworm and Missendei.  I just didn’t know something was going to happen this soon.  Like a major game changer.  We’ve already been told that the battle is more even than it would’ve been had Dany not lost a large portion of her forces when she went North to fight Jon’s war.  It’s almost as if they had to do the battles in this order to make the final fight an even match.  But the match got even more even by a sneak attack no one saw coming. 

  • Qyburn has been busy off screen folks.  He’s built a lot more scorpion dragon killers.  He’s armed the Iron Fleet and the walls of King’s Landing with the improved weapons.  And sadly, Rhaegal saw his last flight.  He was struck in the belly and through the neck and we saw him sink to the bottom of the bay.  Unless they’re trying to pull a trick on us and he actually survived?  I doubt it.  We’re down to one dragon.  The strongest of the 3 and the one Dany has loved more than the others.  (Let’s not even kid ourselves on that!). DROGON still stands for now.  Worse yet, Euron turned the scorpions on Dany’s fleet and took out some of the ships.  Tyrion, Varys and Greyworm were able to escape, but Missendei was captured.  
  • Meanwhile at King’s Landing, Euron speedily returned there to report the success.  This is all part of Cersei’s plan to draw Dany out of a careful and thought out plan and use her dragon against the people of King’s Landing and destroy the city.  Granted, we’ve seen Dany’s vision of a scorched Red Keep.  It’s looking like she will end up burning the mo fo down.  Again, getting ahead of myself.  Cersei went ahead and did what we expected.  She has lied to Euron about who the real father of her child is.  (Granted, I think Tyrion knowing she’s pregant might have alarmed smarter people that maybe she was pregnant BEFORE Euron had the chance to help out.  But, either the writers think we’re stupid, think Euron is stupid or they’re stupid for not thinking of that!  
  • Tyrion and Varys urge Dany to not lash out in a revenge plot and burn the city down.  At least negotiate for surrender.  She knows already what she’s going to do, but does agree to have the negotiation to prove to the people that she gave Cersei a chance.  
  • Tyrion and Varys have an unsettling conversation about the future of the realm.  Tyrion has chosen his side.   Varys is having second thoughts now that he knows there are other options.  It’s very clear that the reluctant Jon Snow would be a better, more tempered leader.  Tyrion knows this as well.  He still pushes for a dual ruler ship, but Varys doesn’t trust Dany enough for that to ever work.  She would take advantage of Jon.  Varys pretty much lets Tyrion know that he will stand for the realm.  And even as Tyrion begs, it is clear that Varys will not stop at any lengths to ensure the realm’s safety.  Perhaps this is what Melisandre saw for Varys’ future?  She knew they all had a role to play before the end.  She might see Jon as the end of it all, but she knew Varys would have to kill Dany before we got there?  Will that actually happen?  That would be insane!  
  • Sidenote: I forgot to give some time above to the whole discussion around The Lord of Light and Melisandre and Davos and Tyrion.  It’s as close as we got to talk of prophecy.  I guess when all is said and done we’re meant to believe that the Lord of Light is real?  Does that mean that is the true god of this fictional universe?  All the other gods are fake?  Are they going to get into that discussion and prove one way or another?  Or was this whole discussion a hint that the prophecy talk isn’t finished yet?   They were talking about how the Lord of Light did some stuff then packed up and went home.  Maybe it’s not over yet. But, I’ve given up anticipating the show to cover more.  Any more will be a pleasant surprise. 
  • Word reached North of what happened at Dragonstone.  Sansa has some words to Jaime about Cersei’s execution and how she would’ve liked to see it.  This triggers Jaime’s night time departure for King’s Landing.  Jaime had decided to stay in the North with Brienne.  But, we know there’s no happy endings in Game of Thrones!  Now Cersei’s in trouble.  He tells Brienne that he’s not a good person.  He recaps why he isn’t and everything he did for Cersei and would’ve done for Cersei.  Though, is there hope that he’s really going down there to take her out once and for all?  Not defend her from Dany and her last dragon?  Brienne tried to plead to the goodness in Jaime that we’ve seen over the seasons and in the past 4 episodes.  But, we see Jaime hop in that horse and leave her there crying.  Tough stuff.  Will Brienne follow or stay by Sansa’s side?  Brienne will come into play before this is all said and done.  Will it be with Bronn, with Cersei or with both?  Stuff is gonna go down and it’s gonna be tough to watch folks! 
  • So here we are.  A standoff at the gates of King’s Landing.   Missendei in chains (nice line by Cersei “so much for the breaker of chains”).  The Mountain and Qyburn at Cersei’s side.  Cersei with Grey Worm, Tyrion and a small fleet of unsullied.  Drogon hanging out in the back.  The Hands both discuss demanding the other’s surrender.  Cersei has promised Missendei’s execution if they don’t comply. We pretty much know that’s how it will end.  Tyrion moves past Qyburn to speak directly to Cersei.  She has yet again another chance to kill him and can’t bring herself to do it.  (Kinda makes you wonder if that means he WILL be the one to kill her in the end.  Gotta be one of the brothers.  Or a girl with a face of a brother.  I’m convinced those are the only 3 options!  Even if Sansa would be therapeutic too.)  Tyrion pleads again to her love for her children (dead children) and one unborn child.  (Seriously, Euron are you listening?  When would Tyrion have found out she was pregnant?  Did a raven go out with the news?)  
  • But, as expected, Cersei moves forward with her plan.  She asks Missendei for any last words.  Missendei?  “DRACARYS!”  Daaaaaamn girl!  She told Dany to burn the mo fo down!  I’m guessing some form of that is going to happen.  How will Jon react?  How will Tyrion react?  How will Varys react?  How will the realm react?   Oh boy.  Next episode will be crazy.  I just got done saying big deaths don’t happen in battle episodes in last week’s comment’s section.  Will the penultimate episode to the end of Game of Thrones be a different story?  I’m not ready for this folks!  RIP Missendei.  

2 Episodes remain!  I can’t believe we’re done to the final 2 episodes.  I’m going to miss this show, but I’m ready to see how this thing is going to end.  It’s shocking to me that George R. R. Martin came out and said that the show’s end will be very similar to how the books will end for the MAIN CHARACTERS.  It’s the secondary characters where it will be different.  I guess it’s up for debate who are considered main characters.  But I would say the remaining Starks, Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion are the big ones left.  I look forward to our discussion as I do every week.  I hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I’ll see you next week! 


Mike V. said...

I’m sure I forgot a lot but after the episode title was revealed it reminded me of the discussion Tyrion and bran had about him being the last male stark. He said he pretty much isn’t and doesn’t want anything. He lives in the past. Does Bran still have a role to play? We’ll see.

Of course the last of the starks also met in the godswood before Jon’s big reveal. Nothing else to add right now. Geez what if Arya kills Cersei and Jaime kills Arya? That would be messed up. Doesn’t really support the book prophecy for Cersei. Interesting to think about though. Maybe the hound will be there to save Arya or vice versa in their separate quests. Too many ways this can go!!!

Mike V. said...

Rewatched this morning. All the talk from Arya and Sansa about not trusting Dany I wonder if Arya’s one way mission is to take out her?? Could be an interesting twist. The mountain was also on her list And he’s always going to be by Cersei’s side. Would be fun to see Arya and the hound team up to save the realm. Who needs armies and dragons? Lol again so many ways this can go down. But rewatching that Jaime Brienne farewell scene it seems clear Jaime is shameful for the things he’s done. Also many scenes separated it but we have to remember Cersei sent Bronn to kill him and Tyrion. Jamie knows this. He could be heading down to put her out of her misery. Maybe it’ll be some combination of Arya hound and Jaime that takes on the mountain and Cersei. And of course not all will survive.

MJ said...

Stating upfront - been a rough weekend. Missed part of the show. Going to End Game tonight so probably not getting an opportunity to rewatch any time soon. SIGH And where did Dany get all these ships ? I thought most were destroyed last year ? Missed most of Missendae getting taken.

LOL on the 'men are stupid'. Why do I feel like this is going to be the last episode that has any peace or enjoyment for these characters. SIGH. Still like Bronn - but not trusting him yet.

LOL on Clegane Bowl. No idea why everyone has been so excited by this for so many years. I'll just go with it.

But really ? You would be fired up if Arya dies ? I pretty much feel they all have a 50% chance of dying. No one is safe now.

Hated Jon sending Ghost away. But I get it. And NO - Jon is not becoming the NK. LOL

Funny how the show is making Jon's parentage the worst kept secret on the show already - when it was always the worst kept viewers secret. So how is Cersie going to find out ? And will it be the cause of Jon's death - probably.

Varys won't kill Dany - but he will assist Cersie maybe ? I dunno.

Leaving for Itlay Thursday - won't see next week's until I get back right before the finale.

Once Cersei put the bounty on the heads of her brother I thought Bronn would tell them and Jamie would once and for all see the need to rid the realm of her. We shall see.

MJ said...

Everyone hear about that Starbucks cup that was accidently left on the table during last nights ep ? LOL

Mike V. said...

Sorry to hear about your weekend MJ! But it should turn around with you going to End Game tonight! lol

Ships - She sailed a bunch of ships to Winterfell at the end of last season. She didn't lose them all. Theon came back on a ship. And I think some stayed at Dragonstone when the others left for Dorne. (another thing I forgot to bring up that the new Prince of Dorne pledges support to Dany too)

Oh yeah...Bronn is hilarious, but yeah not sure I trust him either. And I agree....peace and enjoyment. Maybe for some when all is said and done...but most of them? No this is going to end badly! We always go back to Ramsey's line back in season 3. "If you think this has a happy ending you're sorely mistaken" or something like that.

Clegane Bowl - I just get excited because everyone else is excited. But it makes sense that The Hound would want to come back to face his brother after taking his path of righteousness over the course of the series.

Arya is my favorite character. Of course I'd be fired up if she dies! It doesn't mean she won't! lol There are stories of people throwing their books across the room when they first read of Ned Stark's beheading or the Red Wedding. The show is supposed to make you mad. I'd be mad if Arya dies. I'm sticking by that.

I get it...but it was probably budgetary/CGI reasoning for why Jon didn't say goodbye to Ghost more meaningfully. And it was noticeable! lol

Interesting...haven't thought about Cersei finding out about Jon's parentage. Yeah she may see that as a bigger threat than Dany. hell...maybe Gendry Baratheon will end up on the throne after all of this. lol

Varys was a more lethal force in the books. (he kills Pycelle in the epilogue of Book 5 pledging his support to Dany) I wouldn't put it past him to pull the trigger himself. But assisting Cersei is an interesting idea.

Yeah...surely that's what Jaime is up to after the death threats and her attack on Dragonstone. We'll see!

I'm sure we'll chat more before Thursday but have a great time! We'll see you for the finale!

Mike V. said...

Starbucks - I just read the article about the cup. Hilarious! My response was, well Starbucks IS pretty much everywhere so it makes sense! :)

Anonymous said...

thanks again Mike!!!

More in the ep than I expected. But of course the travel times make zero sense.
1. Opening sequence had dragon crossbow vs dragon! So, loosing a dragon was kind of expected.
2. So, Dany's ready to bed Jon but he backed off. Hmm, that whole scene was non sensical really. I mean he's ready to be with her but looked like he couldn't. Now que all the Aunt/nephew stuff. The writers are playing this with too little commitment. So, hard to get invested in this storyline.
3. Brienne/Jamie--really, really. I found it contrived beyond belief esp when combined with his departure for an unclear motive. Jamie with one hand is best at commanding troops and the writers seem like they don't know what to do with him.
4.Jon--they are building him up which seems like a sure way for him to not succeed,LOL.
5. Arya/Gendry---she doesn't want to be his lady. It was obvious she didn't have to be a "lady"--she's never been so. Gendry knew that and so that scene was kind of silly.
6. Arya--going to KL, why not. I mean she has nothing better to do.
7. Arya--REally---NO huge shoulder carrying celebration as the hero!!! How did this NOT happen? What a huge miss. I mean I know the writers wanted Jon to be the hero to make Dany uncomfortable. BUT, he WASN'T! It was Arya!! How stupid this makes the dinner scenes.
8. Was anybody scared for Tyrion going to the wall? There was zero apprehension since we all knew he wouldn't be killed. But, Missandei--yea when Qyborn said she would be killed if Dany didn't give up--we KNEW she was a goner. So, her actual death moment was kind of anti climatic.
9 Cersei can't die next ep. I hope I'm wrong but given the show's desire to not kill major stars, it won't happen.
10 To me the absolute BEST scenes were when Euron's fleet killed the dragon and destroyed the fleet. I mean the shock of how the dragons were flying so peacefully and then WHAM--dragon down. It was like the old GoT with a major shock factor! We want more!!! Give us more!


Anonymous said...

This has a lot of my feelings.


Mike V. said...

No problem Richard. I appreciate yours and MJ's comments every week as well!

Travel time - well they did discuss Jon not getting there for a fortnight. I think it takes a month to travel to KL from Winterfell so maybe they were suggesting it took 2 weeks for their journey to Dragonstone. That said...did Tyrion really wait 2 weeks to have his conversation with Varys about the heir to the Iron Throne?

1. I did notice the Scorpion in the opening credits. Moreso this week than previous weeks. I did expect to lose a dragon or 2...just not BEFORE the battle even takes place. Makes sense to give Cersei a win beforehand though.

2. Can't argue with you on the little commitment. They had Tyrion/Varys discuss the Aunt/Nephew thing and comfortability. But Dany and Jon can't discuss it? lol Clearly Dany doesn't care about it. Jon was a bit drunk and still has feelings for Dany but then backed off.

3. I feel they've been hinting at this for multiple seasons with Jaime/Brienne. Cersei asked at the Purple wedding if Brienne loved Jaime. Her reaction kinda implied that she did. Bronn asked Pod at Riverrun if those 2 were "doing the deed" and then he confirmed it in this episode "I knew it!" Contrived? maybe. Not sure if GRRM will go there or not. But they certainly have a bond. Even Gwendolyn Christie noted in her interview with Hibberd that she never saw their relationship like that. I think the writers certainly know what to do with Jaime. He's had one of the best arcs on this show or in any media format. But yeah...the ambiguous discussion with Brienne/Jaime felt pretty contrived for tv because they have somewhere for him to be. I wonder if he succeeds in Cersei mission only to come back to have to deal with Bronn who has Brienne held for ransom or something. But to make Brienne a helpless victim after years of having her be a strong character. Not sure they'd go there unless they want to feel the wrath of the 2019 internet.

4. Jon not succeeding. Right? I just keep thinking he has to succeed at something to make it worth him being resurrected from the dead. They keep bringing it back up to. He might not lead in the end but maybe he can set the kingdoms on track for a better tomorrow.

5. Arya/Gendry - agreed hence my comments too! lol But, I think it's more the fact that she knew she was on a one-way mission to kill Cersei or whoever in King's Landing. And she didn't want Gendry coming with her to stop or help. There might be still hope for them. But hope isn't a word you hear much in this tale!

6. lol...well Gendry would've been the other thing to "DO".

7. Dany called out to Arya as the hero of Winterfell. Arya also made the comment about not liking heroes. She was also nowhere to be found at that celebration. She avoided it. Or maybe your shoulder celebration would've happened. But as a writing trope...yeah they could've done it different. Still doesn't seem like Arya's scene. Would've been out of character.

8. Yes...I was scared for Tyrion. I mean I knew deep down he'd be okay in episode 4 but I still got nervous. I get nervous in every scene in this final season! But Missendei? She was definitely a goner.

9. I thought the same. I thought MAYBE she'd be captured and then they'd figure out what to do with her in 10. But maybe they'll deal with her in 9 and then 10 is Jon vs. Dany and figuring out how to rule after they've won. That kind of makes sense to me too. It's crazy though. Have you noticed Cersei has barely had any scenes in this season? That makes me think she'll be the primary character in episode 5. If not 5 and 6.

10. I agree with you. That felt very game of thronesish. Dany's response to go head on at Euron and all those scorpion arrows? That was kind of silly. And why wasn't she lighting them up? Just a silent mad dash at them? lol

Mike V. said...

USA Today article. It's not loading well at work but I scanned a bit. I kinda agree. I don't know why the battle vs. the dead and the battle vs. Cersei had to be mutually exclusive. I think it could've made for good TV or a good movie to have it all happening simultaneously. In fact, that's always how I had pictured it going down. But, I'll reserve judgement until all 6 eps are out there and we can judge the series as a whole. In any case I'll still throw the LOST argument out there. If you loved or hated how it ended, the journey was more than worth the time invested!

Anonymous said...

Well, just like last ep, I was OK with Arya doing it. BUT not the how and when. Point being that I can accept the ending if the execution is good. The USA Today article makes the point I've been making--the writing recently stinks and the execution is not good.

I rewatched the last ep's ending. As you know, I'm an old athlete. SOOO, when I saw Arya having her hand up with the dagger and the NK seeing it there. I was like--NK should grab the knife as it fell. I have MANY times caught glasses, bowls, etc being spilled off a table before it hits the floor. IN midair. A quick guy can move MUCH faster than gravity accelerates. And the NK is extra quick. IE, the slow knife drop was really silly in the rewatch.

As I'm writing this I think you're point about the crew being tired is hitting me. Tired people rush to finish many times, sacrificing quality.


Mike V. said... can definitely feel them rushing to the end. Most of that was done last season. This season they too their time with eps 1 and 2 mounting to that battle in 3. Now it's back in fast forward mode. If they were able to do this right this stuff would've been multiple seasons. Maybe 2 more seasons would've done it. Tell this story but with proper build-up. It's still a really good show. Not everyone is going to be happy with how they wrap it up. That's for sure.

I think Benioff and Weiss have proven they're great at adaptations. When they mix in original content it's hit and miss. I hope their new Star Wars series builds more off their successes than failures! If they're going to adapt Knights of the Old Republic as has been heavily rumored, then maybe we're in good shape! lol

Okay...seriously...when have we ever seen the Night King in combat with someone on this show? He's all about the slow walk and arm raising. The only thing we've ever seen him do is throw a javelin at Viserion lol I don't buy this Extra Quick business! lol

Tired people don't spend 55 nights to shoot the Battle of Winterfell. lol They spent 2 years on these final 6 episodes. I don't think they're trying to sacrifice quality. I think they are expediting a story that could've taken longer. But it would've exponentially have gotten more expensive to produce. The cast would've negotiated higher salaries...Benioff and Weiss probably would've done the same...the production crew...writers everyone. I'm sure HBO would've shelled out the dough. But it's over now. (BTW....GRRM is still out there touting that 3 of the 4 spinoffs are still in development. This includes The Long Night (working title) which has been greenlit)

Anonymous said...

seriously, dude, the NK killed a flying dragon with a hand thrown spear!!! Over a long distance. Having thrown like objects in track and field, I can tell you that it requires a tremendous quickness.

LOL, on slow walk. Yea he got that menacing Frankenstein walk down, didn't he.

And you will catch a baby bottle, you will, just wait. Then you'll be telling yourself how the NK should have caught the dagger.


MJ said...

LOL - I thought she lost more

true enough on supposed to upset us. And LOL on Gendry

Yeah - Brienne has been hot for Jamie forever.

Jon not succeeding ? Do we watch the same show ? He succeeded at the Battle of the Bastards - his plan was flawed but its still a success. He succeeded at getting everyone (almost) on the same side for the NK battle. Those are big accomplishments. He succeeded of getting the Wildings allowed south of the wall. Wow - you guys are harsh. LOL

Mike V. said...

I'll give you the quickness. But Arya is fast too. She learned from No one! lol The damn faceless god!

As for Baby kids are 7 and 5 now! LOL Kinda puts into perspective how long we've been blogging and how long LOST has been over right? :)

Jon didn't win the Battle of the Bastards. Sansa technically did. But she won it by withholding information from Jon. I'm with you on him succeeding to recruit people and get them to our side. I think Richard was talking about him succeeding in winning the iron throne (whether he wants it or not) least that's how I interpreted it.

I'm just saying there has to be one more thing that he's destined for to make his resurrection worth it. I guess reclaiming Winterfell and uniting the North against the dead may be reason enough. But then why is Bran all obsessed with Jon's true parentage and how he MUST know? Is it to claim the throne over Dany? But then what?

I'm not trying to be harsh. But I get Richard's point...if the show is pointing all signs towards Jon being the guy in the end, then it most likely isn't going to be him. That said...after all the subverting of expectations is some point something we've been rooting for needs to happen in the end or else you're just left with a sour taste. (I still stand by the journey being worth it lol) i.e. Cersei must die in a satisfying way. lol But who rules at the end? I'm open to different possibilities! Even though I still support the throne being destroyed physically and metaphorically lol

Mike V. said...

Office Pool - Results from Week 3 and 4 are in. I'm winning my pool at work! Picking Arya to kill the Night King put me in the lead. lol We'll see how the rest goes.

Anonymous said...

Bronn I thought he was a friend from previous season's actions. This Bronn seems WAY different. In a big way filling a convenient writers need.


Mike V. said...

I saw similar comments online (Even got downvoted on Reddit for my response). Yes Bronn did seem like a friend. But he made no secret that he was a sell sword. Even Tyrion constantly reminded him that he'd double anything he was ever offered. (like it was a recurring theme that was bound to come back) Bronn even saved Jaime from a dragon and his follow-up line was that only he gets to kill Jaime after he gets said money/castle. Yes...he does seem to like the Lannister brothers, but it doesn't mean his sellsword side goes away 100%. But does seem like a writing convenience as well. lol

Sidenote: Did anyone notice Podrick ending up with 2 girls after that party? He smiled at the one girl, but then after The Hound barks another girl away you see in the background when Hound and Sansa are talking that Podrick starts flirting with both girls. LOL Just to continue the legend of Podrick's unknown charms. lol

MJ said...

I agree - Jon might be the one left standing. But he don't want it. No one rules. Which will annoy some since it is called Game of thrones I am sure.

Agree on Bronn - while he has been friendly - and I think he likes both tyrion and Jamie - it's always about what are ya gonna give me ? Money, lordship, castle and land - he does nothing that does not benefit him. He always was that way. this is not new. And he explained why he was giving them a shot to promise something to stop him killing them - he don't think Cersie will be alive to deliver Rivenrun. SO in a true sellswords way - he's hedged his bets.

And yes - I did notice Pod.

Still say Varys up to something. Can't quite decide what tho.

Anonymous said...

From Mike's comments above:
"I'll give you the quickness. But Arya is fast too. She learned from No one! lol The damn faceless god! "

That's really my point. It simply does not matter how fast Arya is since it was ONLY gravity that put the dagger in her other hand. And both of them are much faster than gravity.

Bronn had lengthy experiences with both of them where he went beyond the sell sword stuff and it was tested and verified over the seasons. The idea that he doesn't want to fight on one side or the other is also interesting since he is SUPPOSED to be a sell sword. Right now he's really being a con man.

I rewatched the Jaime leaving Brienne scene this morning and it still goes down badly. REally, is his point that Cersei needs him and I can't help how much I love her and will do for her?

Be sure and read the USA today article


Anonymous said...

I don't see Jon last one standing btw

Anonymous said...

As a point of reference the books distinguish sell swords vs assassins.


Mike V. said...

Well someone or someones will rule, but it’ll be different than it was. Surely many expect this??? I don’t know. But the fact that they’re battling for the Throne until the end still makes the title worth it. Yeah, I’m sure someone will complain if someone isn’t sitting on that throne at the end.

Bronn – Agree with MJ’s comments obviously. I think Bronn has seen his share of crap and has well earned the right to say “nope…I’m done doing favors. Time to get paid.” Fair point on sell sword vs. assassin. I don’t think the show cares. Lol
Varys – Oh yeah, he’s definitely up to something. Like I said above….he’s a much more violent character in the books so I wouldn’t be surprised if he does something crazy in the end. But his violent move was in support of Dany not against her. But of the 2 influencers and whisperers (Varys and Littlefinger), Varys is the only one left. He’s gotta be up to some kind of shenanigans in the end. And Melisandre foresaw him being involved too. I think she also said he’ll die in Westeros just like her.

Jaime/Brienne – It’s clearly a badly paced sequence. One scene they’re in love and he’s going to stay with her in Winterfell. Then Sansa makes a comment and it motivates Jaime to go south. I think from a writing standpoint…it’s a plot contrivance and it’s just to get him where he needs to be for the final episodes. It’s meant to look like he’s going back to Cersei. But, I think it’s pretty clear he’s going down there to kill her. Or Confront her at the very least (might turn into killing). His words could be taken as ambiguous. Like “I’m a bad person. I don’t deserve a good person. I’m going to make up for what I’ve done.” But no one talks the way Jaime did in real life. Lol It’s another case of doing too many things in one episode to get to the end. Game of Thrones is a victim of its own design. 5.5 seasons of good pacing then a race to the end!

I’m not even going to make a bet on who will be the last standing. I think Jon has to do something to make his resurrection and actual point of existing (being a Targaryen and a Stark and hidden from birth) worth it. But, I don’t think that means he’ll be ruling in the end. If he dies (again) then his reason for existing needs to be made clear by the end of the show. Lol

Anonymous said...

Below from your post Mike, I agree.

’m not even going to make a bet on who will be the last standing. I think Jon has to do something to make his resurrection and actual point of existing (being a Targaryen and a Stark and hidden from birth) worth it. But, I don’t think that means he’ll be ruling in the end. If he dies (again) then his reason for existing needs to be made clear by the end of the show. Lol

Anonymous said...

OK, this might be a total WOT(Waste of Time), lol, but I've been thinking about the ending given only 2 episodes left.

1. My inclination towards a Sansa and Tyrion rule won't happen without some sort of time jump. She's in WF and not coming South anytime soon.
2. The pregnant women don't look be having babies any time soon. No morning sickness for example on the part of Dany. So, does this point to a time jump also?
3. Dany is starting to act like a queen in need of total power. Given her face of rage ending last ep, I'm thinking she's getting ready to burn KL. "Mad Queen" anyone? We've talked about it before but it gets closer rather than farther away.
4. When will JOn get to KL? Why did he take the long way around. I mean there could have been plenty of ships for everybody to quickly sail to KL--just ask any GoT writer, LOL. Why did Jon not go with his Queen, the one he loves? What is the reason the writers are playing at here? I guess we are to believe there wasn't room, he doesn't like her anymore, him being at KL during the showdown at the wall would have made things difficult for the writers, etc??
5. Having seen one of those dragon killer crossbows before why didn't Dany, Tyrion or any one of her subjects have someone make up some sort of offensive or defensive weapon to counter?


Mike V. said...

I'm always thinking about it too.

1. There's speculation that the fact that they didn't show the rest of the Stark conversation seems to indicate A.) There will be another one before the end and B.) they're probably planning some big contrived twist for the end. Like maybe Sansa leaked the info to Tyrion by design after a discussion with Arya, Jon and Bran. Maybe Arya heading to KL without saying goodbye to anyone is by show design as well and that she has a plan with her siblings and "cousin" lol I guess it's all plausible. The B thing seems like something the show would do (like the red herring stuff with the Littlefinger death), but I'd count on A more. There will be a reunion of Starks before the end. If that means time jump or that Sansa is headed to KL too? I don't know.

2. The whole Cersei Pregnancy is hilarious at this point. She needs to have been pregnant for months with all of the traveling that has happened since the announcement. She's not showing. If she eventually does have a child, Euron SHOULD be confused of how quickly the baby came to term. Of course, Cersei may not plan to keep Euron around long enough for him every to know. We thought it was all but guaranteed that Dany would be pregnant. Maybe she's not?? I mean, I feel like she has to be with all the discussion last season about it. (well the one discussion about it) But yeah...I'm thinking there could be a time jump in the final episode. Some kind of montage wrap up is probably in order too.

3. Yeah it's clear they're trying to get us to think she's a threat and possibly getting Mad Queen vibes. It wasn't a coincidence when Tormund asks "Who rides a dragon? A KING or a Mad Man?" or something like that. Does that mean she actually will succumb to the temptation to "burn them all"? I don't know.

4. Jon will be in KL by the beginning of ep 5. Come on...we already know they're yada yada-ing travel! (they did mention a fortnight so it'll be 2 weeks) Jon gave a reason in the episode for riding a horse and not the dragon. It's scary to think that maybe the real answer is that they wanted to kill the dragon so they needed Jon somewhere else. They need Dany to get angry and not be held in check by Jon so they needed him somewhere else.

5. The first scorpion didn't kill Drogon. It hurt him but he was fine. In the post episode discussion with D&D they said that qyburn enhanced the weapon to be more deadly. And of course he made more of them. But'd think they would've been more prepared. Dany also could've easily burned that fleet at Dragonstone. There are diagrams out there. Swing around behind them where the scorpions are not and DRACARYS! lol These writers are clearly not good battle strategists!

Mike V. said...

Crazy speculation I'm seeing out there. I'll just put a SPOILER WARNING....not that it's an actual spoiler because I have no idea. But if it turns out to be true it might ruin a surprise in the coming episode


Is Drogon the last surviving Dragon or will there be more? Couple theories below:

I'm not sure if I said it here, but I have been thinking that maybe Rhaegal isn't dead. I mean, he probably is. But we just saw him sink in the water and then we heard about the rest. I guess there's a shot in the ep 5 preview where Euron is looking surprisingly at the sky.

Some people are saying there could be more dragons coming. HOW??? Well that got me thinking. How are dragons born? Well we need dragon eggs. We know Rhagal and Viserion were locked away for awhile in Meereen. But we also know that Drogon returned to Valaryia (SP)- when Tyrion and Jorah were passing through. What are the chances he laid eggs there? (Not sure if it matters if a dragon is a he or shee lol)

I don't want to amp up hype for something that may not/probably won't happen. But that would be crazy if a fleet of dragons came out of the sky and took out the Golden Company and Lannister forces. Wouldn't make for a very long battle unless it's END BATTLE theatrics. lol

I mean Emilia Clarke is amping up ep 5 as something really big and to find the biggest TV screen you can find to watch it. This of course can lead to unrealistic expectations. But, I think this could be a surprise that lives up to the hype. Granted...unless Dany has control of this fleet and exhibits control that would mean Bye Bye King's Landing too. lol

Anonymous said...

I believe in Dany's vision and so KL will be destroyed, for sure the throne room. So, it opens the door to a lot of fire from somewhere.

There are a lot of questions about why "JOn's dragon" is dead given how many seasons were built up for him being a Targaran. AND only 2 eps left with him only using the dragon in 1 battle. If that's it, then a let down really.

Arya being pregnant may change her mind re Gendry btw.

A thought occured to me re Dany/Jon and GRRMs partial basis for the series being the War of the Roses. Richard III and his niece were in love and to be wed. Even supposed to have consumated their love. But he was killed in battle before the wedding. Just a reason that Dany may die before they can wed. I say Dany because she the elder and acting kind of strange.


Anonymous said...

OK, so maybe I should rethink the Dany's vision thing. I mean it included snow, didn't it? I'm beginning to wonder if they're going to scrap that scene with the snow given the NK is dead? It sure looked like zero winter at KL last ep and only 2 eps left. Strange thing is I thought we saw it snowing in KL starting S6. But, at the dragon pit scene last season we didn't see snow.

All of the above and more makes me think they've changed the script.


Anonymous said...

Check this out re Jamie riding out last season with it snowing. Obviously implying Winter is here in KL! Snowing none the less.

Challenges a fan as what to believe in.


Mike V. said...

KL doesn't need to be destroyed - Just the RED KEEP (Throne Room). The problem is that Cersei moved the civilians into the Red Keep to protect herself or to make Dany into a villain by killing innocent people.

Agreed on the 1 dragon. It would be a cool twist for there to be more dragons we didn't know about. Plus..what's the point of having all these Scorpion weapons for just 1 dragon? lol I mean...I know it's just Cersei being prepared but cinematically it's much more interesting if they need to be used!

Yeah...I thought of that with Arya. It's just crazy that anytime 2 people get together the immediate assumption is the girl is pregnant. lol But when things are wrapping up you tend to wonder more about it.

Yeah...there could be a tragic end to their love story (Nice call on Richard III and niece)… Might be more motivation for Jon to survive the story and assume a leadership role to live out Dany's purpose. Makes sense with Tyrion talking about her succession plan last season too and her getting angry about it. It would also help explain why Jon had to live. doesn't give Jon an heir. Granted...if they go to an election process...he wouldn't need an heir. You might be onto something.

Mike V. said...

Oh yeah I remember the snow falling. I really thought we were going to get some winter in KL. Even in dany's vision we thought we saw snow falling in the Red Keep but it could've been ash too.

Anonymous said...

Well, in Dany's vision if it's ash--kind of means more dragons or something big time with fire because that was a lot of ash suspended in the air AFTER some action since she's "essentially walking around" without threat.

If it's snow--Where is it now? At the end of Ep4 we could have been in Esos given the scenery around our actors. It's like the winter/snow story line was abandoned-instantaneously with the NK's death.

The above are the 2 options I can foresee--snow or ash(same as you indicated). And in both cases, the show's current trajectory denies each.

Elections? REally, you're thinking elections? Dany won't stand for any dern elections. She knows she's not that popular, LOL. I just can't see elections btw.

So, some interesting story lines. One being D vs J = S. The one that I picked up on as a possibility that they didn't get into is Gendry. Is Gendry going to become something special with Arya? It may turn out the Baratheon blood is important after all?

In addition to your notion of Jon not being on a dragon so it could die. I've been thinking it gives him time to have others tell him to take the throne. Which could lead to a confrontation.


Anonymous said...

From BBT success formula in article below.

"The long-running success of CBS’ “The Big Bang Theory” might be explained as the Sitcom Theory of Evolution: survival of the ever-so-gradually maturing."

Might the opposite be true too re GoT lately?


Mike V. said...

BBT - Sure, the characters evolved. That doesn't mean the show stayed as good as it was. In comparison to Thrones (really tough to compare) I'd say BBT is an example of a show that overstayed its welcome. Granted, I'm still watching and will watch to the end but I felt it should've ended years ago. Thrones is going out while still a massive hit, but the quality of what we're getting now compared to past seasons is questionable. It's still good (I think), but those book adaptation years were amazing. They ran out of runway and had to start moving things to the end. I'm sure it's been a huge challenge for them. If they had more material to adapt there might have been different ideas of how they could've gotten from Point A to Point B. But if you think about it...this is probably why George can't finish the damn things anyway. He doesn't know how to move the players into the place he needs them. So D&D took some shortcuts and they're noticeable when you've been following the GRRM path for so long.

Gotta respond to your other comments to, but that was an easy one! lol

Mike V. said...

My Binge mode podcast talked about Dragon eggs too today. They didn't bring up theories of laying eggs in Valyria or anything, but they wondered if Drogon is the last of the dragons. And Dragons potentially being both male and female depending on the need to continue on the species. That could be an interesting way to end the show...if it ends up just being drogon and even if drogon dies....we might get a shot of dragon eggs in the ending sequence of the show.

There are some theories that Jon will live, refuse the crown and go back North (considering Tormund's comments about where he belongs and what Jon's wishes were)…he could rebuild the wall and be the 1000th commander of the Night's Watch. But will there be a need for a wall anymore? The show opened in the North. It would be interesting if it closed there too.

I'm sure it's tough to make snow happen in the location that they shoot King's Landing. But come on...these are the final episodes. Of course, with the NK dead, does that signify an early Spring? Dunno.

ELECTIONS - I've been sticking to my guns that the throne will be destroyed and they'll have a new form of government. Why not elections? If Dany truly wants to break the wheel (tough to tell from her current trajectory but it could be a red herring), then She wants to eliminate the houses of old and their ascent to the throne. Why NOT elections? A symbolic destruction of the throne would be an end to the monarchy too? Why not go from War of the Roses to the American Revolution (now this could be just me because I'm fresh off a trip to the Museum of the American Revolution yesterday lol Pretty cool place if you're ever in Philly!) But you raise a fair point about Dany not being popular. If she somehow saves the people and Jon vouches for her that could be something. It's funny...she was really popular in Essos and she came to Westeros as a conqueror and most people do not support her.

BTW....That Prince of Dorne was not just a name drop last week. Apparently he'll be featured in the next episode. I wonder if it'll be a character from the book. Some speculate they'll try to replicate the success they had with Oberyn for one more badass moment.

No clue with Gendry and Arya. It seemed like their story was over, but I'll keep my ship hopes alive for now! lol I'll check out your link too.

Yeah absolutely....I mentioned they needed to keep Jon and Dany apart to build a rift between Jon and Dany. or something to that effect. So yeah...that could happen if word gets to anyone in Jon's group.

Anonymous said...

OK, so when one supports the notion of breaking the wheel AND elections I can see the idea of the American REvolution. But the "break the wheel" Dany has long since gone. We have a woman who has to have Jon bend the knee and wants him to hide his right to the throne. She has said she was borne to rule. She wants the throne. She is just like the others before her who have wanted the throne. It's their big objective.

I think we are supposed to have seen this change too. I think Varys/Tyrion's conversation displayed this. Her trying to push Jon back into "his place" showed us that. Her having to be talked out of not burning KL to get the throne showed this.

Many examples of her not being the "break the wheel" Dany. So, if the wheel gets broken I don't know how the show can have her be that AND also what they have shown her to become.

Prince of Dorne--I missed that.


Mike V. said...

They’ve hinted at both sides of Dany. She wants to rid people of Tyrants. But they keep warning of her Mad Queen tendencies. We’re supposed to guess at which one is going to win out. I think they’re throwing a lot of red herrings our way. She also has been told by Olenna to “BE THE DRAGON”...don’t listen to the “wise men”...yet she keeps doing it and she keeps losing things. She went with her gut in Astaphor and it was the right call. She may find a way to attack KL while sparing the civilians. We’ll see. I think this commentary pretty much covers a response to your thoughts. I get what you’re saying too. This is just my gut feeling about what they’ll do or what they’re trying to do. A lot of trickery to surprise us in the end with what actually happens. I could be totally wrong. was a quick line that Dany has the support of Dorne and there’s a new prince.