Monday, April 21, 2014

Game of Thrones: Season 4 Episode 3 - Breaker of Chains

Hello all and welcome back for our continuing Game of Thrones coverage!  Last night was a "quieter" episode in the realm but certainly not lacking in action or some pretty intense exposition.  There were certainly some tweaks from the books, but it worked for the most part!  Let's not waste time with our own exposition and get right into the discussion, right after the spoilers disclaimer.

I will always clearly label when I'm about to delve into future book stuff as I would hope fellow book readers would do in the comments. In the "Safe for all"sections, I will talk about differences from the books for plot points that have already occurred in both.

Here we go!
Discussion Points

As always, feel free to read James Hibberd's recap on EW as it is consistently entertaining.  

TV Talk

King's Landing
  • We immediately pick up where we left off with Joffrey's demise and follow Sansa's swift escape from King's Landing.  We were left in the dark last week wondering if she actually did take up Ser Dontos on his offer.  (Well, I didn't wonder, but the TV audience was left in suspense!)  We were treated to a Tywin scene to add suspense to locking down the city and finding Sansa, but it was all for naught.   Sansa did escape on a rowboat with Ser Dontos.  They rowed through the foggy Blackwater Bay until they reached a ship that was cloaked by the same fog.  Who was Sansa's salvation?  Why Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish of course!  Now, the show certainly built up a bigger connection between Littlefinger and Sansa than the books ever did before this point.  All of Sansa's interactions about escaping King's Landing were with Ser Dontos in the books where here we were warned of the danger of Littlefinger and his interest in Sansa since the end of season 2.   So, what the show had going for it was that Littlefinger all but disappeared from the show for many episodes (since he went to the Vale to woo Catelyn's sister and the former Hand of the King Jon Arryn's wife Lysa Tully.   
  • Anyway,  we don't really learn what Littlefinger is up to but it's safe to assume he played "some" part in the fall of Joffrey.  Clearly, he knew about it as he was there to save Sansa.  And the necklace that Ser Dontos offered to Sansa was not a family heirloom either.  He had constructed it a week prior and appeared to be fake as he smashed the jewels fairly easily.   (I vaguely implied to keep an eye on that necklace, right?)  Littlefinger proved how dangerous an ally/foe he can be by having Ser Dontos killed so he didn't drunkenly reveal how Sansa was able to escape King's Landing.  So, Sansa has gone from one type of imprisonment to possibly another.  And Joffrey's murder comes closer into focus.  But, I wouldn't say it's entirely clear yet! 
  • Elsewhere, Margaery and Lady Olenna had a discussion reflecting on this recent turn of events.  Margaery certainly isn't happy that she has now been married to 2 deceased kings.  This doesn't earn her a very good reputation!  Whereas Olenna stated that she is better off than being married to a monster.  She also implied that her position with the Lannisters is still intact.  Since they didn't consumate the marriage, she technically is not Queen by Westerosi law.  
  • No fear, there is another Lannister (Baratheon?? HA!) in the line of succession.  Good ol' recasted Tommen.  I don't mind the recast here as this guy is a little older and seems to be able to handle the role.  (It's not like Tommen needs to be played by a Shakespearean thespian or anything!)  I loved this scene between Tommen and Tywin going over what makes a good king.  Cersei was clearly annoyed, but Tywin had a point as always.  His point was Joffrey did not take his role seriously and was an awful king.  He wanted to IMMEDIATELY start grooming the next king to be wise.  But mainly, his advice was to listen to his advisors forever.  In other words, "be my puppet my illegitimate grandson!"
  • As Tywin pulled Tommen out of his mother's clutches and walked him out with a discussion about the birds and the bees, Jaime walked in to talk to Cersei.  Cersei is still blaming Tyrion for the whole thing based on some lively discussions the 2 of them had in a prior season.  Tyrion claimed that he would ruin her happiness one day, rip it right out from underneath her.  I believe this was in season 2 when Cersei thought she had found Tyrion's whore but it was Ros instead.  Granted, Cersei has NEVER been happy.  Well, she was for a second when Tyrion was arranged to marry Sansa, but she got the blow that she had to marry Loras seconds later.  Anyway, she is now requesting that her brother/lover Jaime kill their other brother Tyrion.  It is THEIR son that died after all.  Jaime didn't really agree, but instead what followed was too disturbing for words.  It clearly looked like a little sibling rape.  My recollection from the books is vague here.  Jaime didn't arrive to King's Landing until AFTER Joffrey's death.   WELL after.   But they definitely did have some "action" in the sept.   But, I believe it was more consensual.   I'm sure they want to keep playing up the fact that Cersei has lost interest in Jaime due to his new life status and missing digit.  She clearly started pushing him a way when the gold hand touched her face.  Granted, it was awful timing for any sort of act like this (even moreso for a couple of people that never should be partaking in these activities anyway!).  The general consensus I'm reading from book fans is that they are upset the show went this route with Jaime forcing himself on her.  There was so much character building in the books and the show to turn Jaime into more of someone you root for.  This definitely does some damage. Granted, it is Cersei so maybe people don't feel the love loss too much.  But, it's still disturbing!      
  • So the Red Viper, Oberyn Martell, is clearly being painted us a constant lover of mass orgies.  They discussed his sexual preferences for quite some time and how he loves all things of nature when it comes to embracing the arts of pleasure.  But, this was eventually interrupted by Tywin and his strategizing.  There were some intense discussions here about Elia Martell's death and Oberyn's interest in speaking with The Mountain.  But Tywin sidestepped that for the moment to requesting Oberyn be a judge at Tyrion's trial.  It was all in the name of getting the Martell house back in alliance with the Lannisters for what could potentially be ahead (i.e. facing Dany's dragons.  Everyone rejoices "There's a connection!!!" Mike calms everyone down "Probably still a long ways off folks!")  This certainly is more of a connection being made in the show between plots than was made in the books from what I remember.  I don't even think Westeros really believed that the dragons have returned at this point in the books.  But, I understand wanting the TV audience to be invested in the connections between these storylines.    I think the judging panel was Mace Tyrell, Oberyn Martell and Tywin Lannister for the Tyrion trial in the books too.  I'll look it up later and correct this if I'm wrong.  
  • We should also state that Oberyn is an expert in poison and Tywin definitely believes Joffrey was poisoned (rather than choking which were the symptoms that led to his death).  He also knows that Oberyn and Tyrion talked when he first entered the city.  Does making him a judge rule out that he may still suspect Oberyn as a conspirator?  Maybe/Maybe not.  I truly don't remember from the books! But that Tywin is a master strategist so expect he has some trick up his sleeve. 
  • That said, let's not rule Tyrion out just yet either.  He always seems to weasel his way out of situations, as Cersei alluded to.  It was probably a good idea to keep Tyrion out of the "Black Cells" for this stint of the show.  Rumor has it that Tyrion (Peter Dinklage actually) does some of his best work in this cell.  He will be having some pretty intense discussions with various characters.  Lots to potentially be revealed!  But, it's better that it's in a well lit dungeon rather than the dark cell that Ned Stark was kept in.   Of course, Podrick did bring him candles so it probably will get dark at night.   Podrick, ever the loyal squire, gave Tyrion all of the information going on.  The 3 judges, Sansa is gone (makes him look even more guilty), Varys was requested to speak in Joffrey's defense.  It was also revealed that even an attempt was made to bribe Podrick.  They would've given him a knighthood, but he turned it down.  Tyrion told him to fetch Jaime but then to leave the city immediately.  This was their farewell and it was rather touching.  Is this the end of Podrick's adventures in Westeros?  I don't really want to say, but by saying that I imply there is more in the books don't I?   But, even if you tried to guess where he'd show up next you'd have no idea! And I really don't know if the show will go that route.      

  • Arya and The Hound's road trip to the Vale continues.  (Wait, wasn't Littlefinger supposed to be at the Vale too?  And isn't Sansa with Littlefinger now?  Hmmm)   This scene, I do not remember from the books but it was pretty awesome.  They spent time with a farmer and his daughter with Arya claiming that the Hound was her father and he fought in the war for House Tully.  Dinner was hilarious with praying to the 7 gods and The Hound and Arya eating soup.  But, once The Hound found out they have silver, any chance of employment was slim.  We knew the Hound would be taking that money by force!  The exchange between Arya and The Hound after that was classic.  And I'm just going to copy/paste it from Hibberd's recap. 
"You're the worst s--t in the Seven Kingdoms!" And The Hound delivers a big line: "I just understand the way things are ... how many Starks do they got to behead before you figure it out?"


  • If you didn't remember the leeches on the flame from last year, it was reminded to us in the old clips.  Joffrey is dead, so Stannis is giving credit to the Lord of Light.  (If you recall, Balon Greyjoy was also given his very own leech to.  Still alive as far as we know!)  More jibber jabber between Davos and Stannis.  Davos claims they still need an army to win wars.  Anyway, it all led to a scene between Davos and Shireen.  When he was getting another lesson in literacy, he came up with the brilliant idea to contact the Iron Bank of Braavos.  It's been made clear that King's Landing is in severe debt to the Iron Bank.  And if they don't pay those debts, the Iron Bank gets its money by funding their enemies.  Now, I can't remember if this happened off the page in the books, but I would not be surprised if we take a little trip to Braavos with Stannis and/or Davos this season!  Anything would be better than remaining at Dragonstone for any more time ever! 
The Stuff near The Wall 

  • In the books (The words TV viewers dread!), Sam killed a White Walker with the dragonglass during the battle at the First of the First Hand.  It was witnessed by Grenn (who just returned this episode) and word got out.  Sam started getting called "Sam the Slayer".  When he killed the White Walker in private only for Gilly and baby's eyes, it seems that the nickname still happened but to more mocking tones.  Maybe this will change over time!  But, Sam's fear for Gilly's safety at a castle full of "backed up" men was legit.  Though taking her to Molestown?  (sp)  I don't know how great an idea this is.   I will say this never happened in the books either.  But, in the books the timing was way different.  Jon Snow returned to the walk with a sense of urgency as the wildlings were RIGHT behind him.  Sam returned somewhat around the same time.  The show is taking its time to build to some kind of conflict.  So, whatever happens with this Gilly story, I'm not really sure.  I have an idea where it will end up though!
  • Same story with the Wildlings raiding lands.  This never happened in the book.  Of course, it's building up the threat of the Thenns.  They killed this whole town/villiage of people but left a kid alive to go tell the Night's Watch about it.  Styr told the kid he was going to eat his parents. Ewww.   Anyway, it's all meant to be a diversion.  Empty out the Night's Watch while Mance makes his move.  Jon and Alliser Thorne seemed to agree on at least this.  They must stay put at the Wall.   
  • But, once Grenn and the other guy (forget his name right now) show up talking about what's going on at Craster's Keep, it sounds like staying put isn't an option.  Jon told Mance there were 1000 people manning the wall when it's closer to 100.  If the Night's Watch folks who stayed at the keep run into Mance and his army, it will give Mance the advantage.  This is another new story to the show, but I'm totally cool with it! Anything that can build up Jon Snow's character to more of what we see in the books rather than what we've seen so far on the show!  

  • I'm running out of writing steam here!  But, this was a pretty awesome sequence.  Different from the books as the character that faced off against Mereen's finest soldier doesn't exist in the books.  Us book readers assumed Daario would take his place.  And if the sight of New Daario wasn't jarring anymore for anyone, then the scene worked!   It was pretty awesome.   It seems like Dany doesn't want to take the city by force.  But, rather she wants to create an uprising with the slaves.  They catapulted barrels of broken chains of all the free slaves with Dany into the city to ignite an idea of a rebellion. (CORRECTION: The collars were actually the collars of the dead slaves crucifixed at every mile marker on the way to Mereen.  Even more impactful!  Of course, with there being 163 of those and seemingly more collars thrown off the wall, it could have been a combination of all of them.)   We'll see if it works! 
I'm thinking any Book Talk in future weeks will just be reserved for comments.  I've been writing more than I planned to each week!  Though, next week it'll be the day before I add a new member to the family.  So, this whole concept of recapping Game of Thrones may be changing!  In any case, I will continue to post threads for discussion.  But, we'll see how much time I have for more!   Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you in some form next week! 


Anonymous said...

Thanks for doing the recap, good job.

The Jaime/Cersei thing was the worst work done yet by the show runners vs the books as far as I can tell. I did see where she would kiss and hold him, indicating she kind of wanted to, but overall, she certainly didn't seem to want to. I think she said at the end, what WE'RE doing is wrong indicating it was both. I point out some SLIGHT ambiguity to alleviate my frustration of the scene. It would not be good if she were to get pregnant. BTW, Dany's parents were brother and sister.

Yea, that necklace just keeps giving entertainment--lol. LF is NOT a good guy.

The Hound stealing the silver was better than killing them and burning the house, but I think this was mostly for Arya's sake/experience.

I am sooo frustrated at the Stannis action--really the lack thereof. Great problems at the wall, but now he wants to head to KL but has no resources. Iron Bank stuff has long been something I've been watching, just seems like a real big deal lurking in the background.

The Wall stuff is dragging on too for me, this ep was titled breaker of chains or similar so I was thinking we would see a lot more of Meerreen. Looks like Dany kind of likes Dario.

I thought the scene when Tommen responded to Tywin showed some surprise by Cersei of how well Tommen grasps what's needed to rule. And that his capability would potentially put her in a less important position. We'll see, he's so young that he will likely be controllable.

Kind of interesting that the first few seasons we get this move of people from Esos to Westeros and Dany trying to. This season things are kind of changing where there's some going from Westeros to Essos.


Anonymous said...

From the book, via the EW article you posted:

It was NOT rape in the book.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.


Mike V. said...

No problem Richard! I think the problem is I enjoy writing about this show too much when I don't really have the time to do it! lol It's going to get tougher starting next week, but I'll do my best to get something up here for discussion.

Targaryan Family Tree:

Interesting. Never studied it that much, but yes Dany's parets certainly were siblings. So the tradition continued until the most recent family line for the Targs. But still, different religions, different customs (Valaryian) so they had different values on incest than the rest of Westeros.

Anyway yeah I'm not sure what to make of the change in the Jaime/Cersei stuff. Some people cited the book quotes and that started off non consentual too with Jaime forcing it. But eventually Cersei changes her tune. So the show wanted to change this for a reason. I guess we'll see! As for Cersei being pregnant? Well, any response to a posed question like that (yes or no) would be implying a spoiler! lol So, I'll just let it sit out there!

LOL on the necklace!

True on the Hound not killing them. But he did imply they were as good as dead. I agree maybe it was for Arya's sake he didn't kill them.

Unfortunately, Stannis's story probably is stalling for time this season too for various reasons. Reasons we cannot speak of in a "NON-BOOK" section. All we can say is, a lot of this stuff wasn't in the books...or "it happened off page" while other events were going on.

It would be pretty awesome to see Braavos though (and we did get a glimpse of the town in the trailer). So, hopefully we will see them heading there soon.

The Wall stuff is going to drag. I think they're going to bring some additional action than was in the books, though (as I mentioned in the recap). I'll talk more in "book stuff".

Dany likes Daario eh? Where would you get that idea besides the constant blushing smirk on her face ever since last season? She doesn't even care that he looks like a completely different person this season! LOL Obviously, I kid but in a very serious way. lol Yeah...I would've assumed more Dany stuff this episode too. I'm in no rush with that story though because neither is GRRM! LOL

Interesting about Cersei being surprised by Tommen's responses. He certainly was quick to dish out the answers Tywin was looking for. But yes, it's a good point that Cersei would be less powerful in this situation...all to Tywin's plan. And seems very likely "controllable" was the key theme to that scene.

Yes...interesting on your final comment. That's all I'll say for now. :)

Mike V. said...

**************BOOK STUFF (SPOILERS)************

The Wall stuff. We know in the books when Jon got back and warned of the incoming war from happened basically instantaneously. And Jon was a key leader in that defense of the Wall. With the book being split into 2 seasons, they have to build up to that battle more instead of just having it early this season and moving into book 4/5 territory with Jon's arc. But, since Jon's character growth has been lacking on the show in comparison to the books, this is a chance for the show to provide some depth to his character and make him deserving of future "honors" that might be bestowed on him.

And naturally, this ties very closely to Stannis's story. Sure, the show has already hinted at where he'll end up. But the book benefitted from Stannis's surprise help at the wall when they needed it most. I think the show will still do that in some fashion but showing all hope lost and then Stannis coming to the rescue. And of course Braavos is NORTH and closer to the Eastern side of the Wall. So, I'm fairly certain that's where Davos and maybe Stannis will be headed. (I'm sure Mellisandre would go with as well)

But, it's going to be a slow build over the season with that battle happening closer to the middle/end of the season. That's my guess at least.

There's so much intrigue going on with the King's Landing stuff and the Arya/Hound stuff (which also is going a bit off-book) that they have time to let it play out. And of course let's not forget that we are introducing a new story arc to the equation with Littlefinger and Sansa's adventures.

And if that weren't enough...BRAN still heads north! And he needs to meet ol' CH! Of course, I feel like Bran's story will be stalling a bit from a book perspective as well as there aren't many of his chapters left to adapt. lol I loved his chapters in the books though. There's always a chance they'll be building flashbacks into the show through Bran's visions. They've already hinted at his powers this season having the gift of foresight and hindsight. So we'll see!

I keep thinking of more stuff they need to cover. There's also the dreadfort/moat cailin stuff as well. Yikes. And only 7 episodes to cover it all! lol

Mike V. said...


I saw that in the comments too...but it started "FORCEFUL" and got to the point you quoted

"“There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her
neck, "not here. The septons…" “The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of the gods. He never heard her.”

A Storm of Swords, pages 700-701

They just decided to eliminate the second part from the TV show.

Mike V. said...

Hmmm, I might need to correct the Collars comment. The slave collars were from the dead slaves crucifixed at every mile marker on the way to Mereen. That is even more impactful than what I said it was in the recap!

Anonymous said...

That Cersei stuff in the book was based on them not getting caught. It was not a pure rejection of Jaimee. Some have said that the TV scene had some acceptance on her part. But the overall tenor was not that of the book as we left the scene and so left us with VERY different impressions of each character.

I think this was true character asasination by the show runners, maybe even intentionally for whatever reasons. There will be those out there watching this show for whom Jaimee can never be redeemed now. Not that Jaimee will be compared to Joffrey nor Ramsay nor even as bad as Littlefinger. But those aren't characters we're pulling for. One things for sure, many feel as I do. So GoT-TV is dealing with it's first real sizeable negative reaction of a scene from fans. At least I've never seen so many strongly worded negative comments in years past.

Yea, we've got to get into the Ramsay vs Asha fight.

Yea, I first thought those were the collars of the slaves from before until one of the last shots where the slave had on an identical colar. She's trying to be a culture changer/imposing culture change. I wonder if she'll be better than the many consultants who go around doing that today--lol.

Tywin knew about Dany before, but this was the first where he mentioned she could be a real threat. Ironically if she had her huge army in Westeros TODAY, she'd win with the depletion of resources in Westeros currently. But, she's onto Meerreen--lol.


Mike V. said...

I would agree that this hurt Jaime's character redemption arc. But, I don't think it's character assassination just yet. It might be just to show how toxic their relationship much Jaime is into her and how much she isn't into him anymore. Not that rape is ever a subject to be taken lightly even on a show with no moral compass like this. But still...I think we'll still see storylines coming for Jaime where he'll be seen in a different light. But, maybe we'll still question where his loyalty/honor truly lies and this scene may help depict that ambiguity.

I'm not saying I enjoyed the scene. I thought it was pretty out of place with where his character was right now. But, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate and anticipating what's ahead (without spoiling of course lol)

There were lots of collars there...I think it probably was a combination of the dead Mereenese and all of the slaves she freed.

Yeah...Tywin and Joffrey spoke about the dragons before, and of course Varys brought it up to Tyrion in season 2. But yes this is the first time we see preparations being made in advance. And we never really saw that happening in the books. Granted, we also never saw a scene between Tywin and Oberyn in the books either because neither were POV characters in the chapters that exist. But, I like the connection being made here. Ties the show's plots together more.

And yes...the world is being introduced to the Mereenese Knot as we speak! lol I still think the show will trim the unnecessary fat away which of course, will make the need for book 6 or to go "off book" even more essential sooner. I'm thinking Books 4 and 5 will be mostly covered next season. Maybe some overflow into season 6. There's certainly multiple seasons worth of material there, but I think a lot is not going to get adapted. We'll see!

Anonymous said...

Just read a response by GRRM and he says this is a case of the butterfly effect. That since they brought Jaime back to KL earlier things are different. So, it isn't as in the book. The thing is after reading his comments, the show runners should not have had the scene imo, it's not the two lovers who have been separated coming together at desperate times. It served a purpose in the books showing how much they desired/needed each other and he showed up at a desperate time and even though in a very inappropriate place their desire/need for each other overcame them. He mentioned potential POV considerations, but I think that was him just trying to not throw the show runners under the bus. He said he doesn't want to address this any more on his personal blog, that there are plenty of TV blogs.

The more I read the more I feel comfortable saying the show runners deserve a lot of criticism over the scene.


Mike V. said...

Richard, I read the same thing. GRRM may have pulled it off his blog if it was there. I saw it on EW though. He definitely was trying not to throw them under the bus.

I know it was pretty out of place, but this show is a crazy show. I think the bigger deal is that it goes against the "reformed" Jaime...and the book Jaime who mentioned many times how against "rape" he is. Even on the show he saved Brienne from rape by sacrificing and lost his hand in the process.

I think Cersei and Jaime's behavior in future episodes will be telling to how this affected both of them. You and I (and other book readers) know where things are eventually going in regards to their respective arcs. I can still see that end point with this slight modification.

I'm willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt until we see more episodes. Of course, they've been pretty silent so far. Alex Graves (the director) apparently said he didn't see it as rape. lol I guess you could argue that Cersei was "sort of" consenting but was more rejecting the time and place more than anything.

But yes..the timing definitely worked better in the books.

BTW...EW posted another "book readers" discussion reflecting on the episode. I'm a big fan of those posts and hope they continue it week!

Obviously don't read these unless you want to be spoiled on all things books! lol

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the link. Yea I think Alex Graves is really in trouble over this. His comments about this not being seen as rape is absolutely ridiculous and so I don't think he'll go unscathed. I don't think GRRM is happy about this and was actually surprised by how it was done. The fact this got by HBO and other personnel shows a problem there too.

The thing that makes this so important is that there is more being said about this ep than most any other ep(excepting RW and BWater for example) in four seasons--and it's negative. It is the MOST negative thing about the TV series ever said or done in 4 seasons and so deserves huge accountability for such a huge franchise. A franchise made huge by fans that started with the books and have been betrayed by this scene. This scene wasn't just a slight change, it changed the character of Jaimee where for years he fought against rape. It did not reflect Cersei's need for love/acceptance. And it totally changed the necessity and point of the scene. It went from one of joint desire/desperation in desperate times to basically rape.

I think we have to hold them accountable by showing our objections.

I agree that the story arcs probably will not overall be hugely impacted, but no matter what, Jaimee's character is hugely damaged and even Nikoli when commenting on it didn't seem to understand why it was being directed that way, he didn't feel comfortable with it.

Some have suggested that there will be a change in subsequent eps to make this right, I don't see how, but I'm not a TV director/producer either. I thought everything has already been shot for this season.

Since Alex didn't see this as rape, then he certainly would not have had anything in the subsequent eps to offset.

The backlash from this scene might also cause the HBO/GRRM folks to consider how they're handling the butterfly effect. Which comes from their adaptation but also will become a bigger problem once the show surpasses the books on the timeline. In essence, going forward they are going to have to make adjustments for how far they are willing to deviate from the books. Totally changing one of the major qualities of a character is something they may not have thought important. If it's as simple as Alex didn't get that as rape, then he should just be fired. Maybe Nikoli could have stood his ground better. Maybe Lena could have held her ground better--interesting that she has not commented I have heard of? I think more will come out on this due to the level of outrage. The thing is, the show didn't use pigs for fear of offending PETA, etc--lol. So, how this got through is just crazy.

HBO has sunk a lot of money into this franchise and they don't want it to suddenly go negative. I don't think it will. But I bet you that before Sunday night, everyone at HBO, GRRM, D&D, etc thought that ep was good too. If the TV production starts to vary widely from the books in a negative way(such as this) the viewership will fall as the core book fans start feeling betrayed.

I also picked up from GRRM in that post that he is concerned about increasing divergence from the books. Hence, "voice your concerns of this ep in the TV blogs"--which I'm not responsible for, in essence.


Mike V. said...

All good points Richard. I'm not arguing that it's not a big deal and shouldn't be made into a big deal.

I'm just saying, we may not have seen the full picture yet. Yes, everything is filmed for the show and in the can. Alex Graves isn't the ONLY director attached to Game of Thrones. He happened to direct both Episode 2 and 3 since they kind of went together though.

I think we need to see the aftermath of that scene before we jump to conclusions. If it never gets addressed again, then maybe there's an issue.

Ultimately the blame falls on the showrunners. They have final say on anything. And I think they have a pretty good grasp on Martin's material. I don't think they would do this to Jaime's character unless they had a downstream plan for him.

I think everyone involved with the show, including Martin, know that that at some point the book and the show are probably going to go in 2 different directions but maybe end in a similar place. Unless they all come to some compromise in the next 2 years that allows GRRM to finish his books and for it to be mostly reflected in the show or an ending movie to wrap it up.

Martin may be concerned about it, but then he needs to express that or shut up and start writing! LOL You can't rush the creative process I know, but he's just as guilty for allowing them to start adapting this material before it was close to finished.

Mike V. said...

One other note...I have a feeling we'll be hearing from Benioff and Weiss before the week's over.

MJ said...

So - Little finger arranged for the Fool to get Sansa, but does that mean he's responsible for killing Joffrey? Cause why would he ?
The Lannisters benefit him and gave him The Vale. Why bite that hand ? Why fake a necklace to have the fool give to Sansa?
So that she'd follow him when he told her to go? Feels like there is more to this. Are they saying Littlefinger had Joffrey killed ??
If yes - then it makes me wonder if he was really behind Cersei finding Shae therefore forcing Tyrion to send her away
cause Shae would not have allowed Sansa to go I'm thinking.

Eww - one thing to force yourself upon your lover - but to do it at the coffin of your dead son ? Yikes.

So I guess they needed to remind us - and Arya - how the Hound really rolls ! Just in case we might have started to
like him.

I know they like to give us a little of everyone - but that Dany part could have waited to be paired with some actual story
forward movement in my mind. Not that the scene wasn't cool - but it would have also been nice to what happened
because of what we saw instead of giving it to us in dribs and drabs. And am I the only one who could care less
about Sam and Gilly ?

Tywin def getting his hooks into Tommen early ! And the thing with Oberyn - keep your enemies closer ?? didn't realize
Dorne didn't fall in the war with the Targaeryns. Def no room for doubt now if he goes both ways. LOL

Agree with Tyrion - Cersei did not have her son killed. Made me sad when he kicked Podrick loose. And when did he start
calling him Pod ? Never noticed that before.

Have to catch up on all your comments later.

Mike V. said...


I think you're right to question that there is more to Littlefinger's story and the story of Joffrey's death. I just won't say how MUCH more. :)

Interesting thought about Littlefinger being behind the Shae stuff. I actually have no idea because the Shae stuff is a bit of a change from the books. But, that certainly makes sense. I fear saying much more though!

The "rape" that you speak of has been the subject of much debate since the episode aired. It didn't quite happen like that in the books and you'll see Richard and my back and forth on the subject in the comments. lol

It seems like they were doing a lot of reminding of who these characters "WERE" or may still partly be. (Jaime being another example, though as we argued it kind of is against his character traits) With The Hound though, he may have shown a little growth considering he didn't kill the farmer and his daughter right on the spot. Had Arya not been there, he probably would have.

I get your point with Dany, but it's rare that they even go 1 episode without Dany making an appearance. That would've been 2 episodes! It's just the nature of the beast with this show though. So many stories, they have to cover these things at some point.

Sam and Gilly? They're definitely not the most interesting storyline, but there is a reason they're telling it. We may not get to that reason until a bit later though! lol

Tywin is definitely getting his claws in Tommen. Director Alex Graves called it a "verbal kidnapping" of Tommen right in front of grieving Cersei. So the "war with the Targaryans". Important distinction here....they're not speaking of Rob's war from a few years ago...they're speaking about when Aegon the Conqueror came with his dragons many many many years ago and started the Targaryan reign of the realm. I really didn't remember it either. Here's an excerpt from a Ice and Fire wiki.

"Seven centuries after the Andal invasion, Aegon the Conqueror invaded Westeros and in his War of Conquest subjugated all of the Andal kings one by one, except Dorne, which successfully resisted the Dragon King. Whereas other kings and lords had taken to the field against Aegon, or clustered in castles, the Dornish refused to give open battle and allow Aegon to deploy his dragons. Instead, they turned to ambush and raids, striking quickly and then slipping back into the desert or through the mountain passes, where even the dragons could not find them. In time, Aegon pulled away from Dorne."

Tyrion/Podrick - He was referred to Pod a lot in the books, but yeah I don't recall Tyrion ever doing it before now on the show. Just one of those subtle evolutions I guess! lol

mj said...

Hey - you guys didn't give the spoiler warning on Dany's parents stuff!

Dont know what I feel on the jamie/cersei sex. It was def forceful sex but I almost felt that cersei would start enjoying it then start to pull aw ay again. I was more upset by the timing/location of it. Cersei is not above using sex as a weapon and being so cold to Jamie since his return, along with all else she has done - hard to feel sorry for her

Thx for the 411 and distinction on Dorne standing against the dragon folk

Mike V. said...

Dany's parents stuff - Historical information. No spoiler necessary! Similar to the Dorne info! lol I'm not even sure I remember reading it in the books. lol

Agree on the Jaime/Cersei stuff. I think there's more info to be revealed there before we should judge too harshly. But it definitely has struck a nerve with the fanbase.

No problem on Dorne stuff!

Mike V. said...

I should clarify that the Dany stuff is historical information that is not a huge reveal.

If Jon Snow's mother (and possibly more) ever gets revealed in the books...that would be historical information that IS a huge reveal. lol

Anonymous said...

Mike,do you really think there will be something to happen to make it clear that it was not rape?

Otherwise most people will continue to recognize it to be rape, period. And Jaime will have to live with it.


Mike V. said...

I don't know if they'll come out and say it either way. But maybe Cersei's behavior the next time we see her will be somewhat telling. Maybe Jaime's future actions too.

I'd also like to hear d&d's perspective. It is interesting they haven't said anything yet. Lol

Anonymous said...

I have read where D&D have different opinions--lol.

Unfortunately, given that the show is already shot and Alex didn't see it as rape(he is catching a LOT of grief on that btw) I think you're very optimistic--lol.

Also, on most sites I've seen it seems that almost all see it as rape and that it has been the biggest part of the comments.

I am going to be optimistic and hope that the show runners come out with a statement of apology. One of the Ds(I think) and Alex said it wasn't rape as a means of clarifying. Problem is that in our society today we've been taught that No means No--period.

I recall shows made in the 50s and 60s that a woman could resist and then succoumb to charms in a way where the romance went forward. But today that can get you thrown into jail.


Mike V. said...

It should be noted that Dave and Dan wrote the episode so it might have been their call to cut the scene there not Alex's. And we have to remember that while the show is airing in our modern times the show takes place in a different fictional world with their own made up values that are currently broken anyway.

The big deal here is how they changed Jamie's standards from the book. I think if this didn't affect the book it would've been status quo for controversial scenarios the show has always had. I think we just need to let it play it out more before we rule it the atrocity it is. Everyone involved have heard the outcry and I'm sure they'll think twice before trying it again.

But yeah I'm sure Dave and dan will address it eventually.

Anonymous said...

I totally agree that the big deal is the difference with the book. And agree that everyone involved has heard the outcry.

I unfortunately can't see how it can be undone but wait to see.


Mike V. said...

I basically think the running theme of this episode (which we touched on here) is that the people we may have started rooting for are still pretty awful people.

Remember when Sawyer turned into a likable guy on LOST? He went and stole all the guns and had Charlie beat the crap out of Sun. He felt like he needed to be hated. But over the course of the show he still turned into one of the favorite LOST characters.

I think it's similar with Jaime. He's on a redemption arc, but he was pushed to his limits in that scene. His illegitimate son died on his Gold Cloak watch, he's been constantly told how old and useless he is. And his incestuous love was passionately kissing him until the gold hand touched her face reminding her that he's not who he was anymore. It drove him to a breaking point and brought out the AWFUL Jaime we have seen do other bad things. Sure, there may be no redemption for "raping" someone...but I think we'll continue to see Jaime on his redemption arc. No redemption arc is perfect. And maybe we're meant to have ambiguous feelings about it. He has done awful things before and continues to do awful things.

Maybe they're trying to show how Cersei is a bad influence on his life vs. Brienne who is a good influence on his life. Granted, we have book knowledge but this scenario is playing out differently. I'm just assuming there will be a scene between Brienne and Jaime soon with her accusing Jaime to be partly to blame for Sansa getting away and possibly being in more danger. If he had stuck to his word to free Sansa, she wouldn't have disappeared. So...if such a conversation happens, we'll see how it might affect Jaime's future endeavors.

I know it's the heat of the moment right now with that scene, but I think over time when more scenes have occurred and more plot has advanced, people will just throw this one on the backburner. Maybe some will never forget or forgive it, but I'm thinking most people will. Same with Sawyer and the guns. Does anyone really care that that happened now? (And no I'm not directly comparing Rape to stealing Guns on a deserted island lol Just the similar character trends)

Anonymous said...

Yea, redemption arcs aren't perfect but to show one as being imperfect in this way is "fan insensitive" at best.

Alex turned this into a discussion about defining rape when he said that this scene was not rape. His statements compounded his and others "mistakes" If he had said he didn't mean for this to be seen as rape, then the frustrations would have immediately been lessened. To a large degree the show runners have made this worse since the broadcast. Consider they've really done nothing but made it worse with silence or not understanding what rape is. This is 2014 and the audience is of today, not of the middle ages so when Alex said this was not rape to an audience of 2014, he's crazy. He has not since even come back and said they didn't mean for the scene to be rape, again crazy. They didn't have the pigs because this is an audience of 2014, so the notion that they were trying to be of the time so to speak just doesn't hold up.

ALL things dim with age--memories, people die, life moves on. So, yea next season this won't be as big of a deal. But they have definitely broken a trust between book fans and the TV show. That trust will or won't be repaired for each individual over time. What they do in upcoming episodes vs the books on every significant scene of various subjects will have a lot to do with how that trust is regained or not.

But Jaime is now a different character than in the book. Just as he was defined as a king slayer, he is now going to be defined as a rapist, at least to most viewers. The show had better be careful in recognizing that or future scenes may be seen as comical/nonsensical when they shouldn't be for example.

You may recall that before this season I was concerned that the TV show will not end as the books in many ways. You said that the show runners know how it ends and they do. To me this "problem" demonstrates my concerns though. The book ending and the show ending could be significantly different in character/tenor. The same person may be on the throne but the nature of that person could be very different as could those around him/her. The secondary characters are certainly sometimes being portrayed differently and to some extent we've accepted that. But as GRRM points out there is a butterfly effect at work. So, in another 2 or 3 seasons, things are likely to deviate more and more.

This is the BIG problem that the show runners have failed at here IMO and if they don't guard against more, in the future will hurt book fan trust again, even reopening this wound.

There are a lot of people in the press picking up on this story that don't normally deal with GoT and it's been negative. I am kind of at the point of moving on but new articles keep the story alive--lol.


Mike V. said...


I'm really annoyed right now. I went on a big rant about TV vs Books and I was on a roll and my browser unexpectedly closed. Not sure I'll be able to muster up the strength to write it again!

Long story short, I get your points but I have to disagree to an extent. I think it's a little harsh to be slamming Dan and Dave (even Alex Graves working on their direction) after being so religious about their adaptation of the books. This is the first scene that has been questioned this much, but they have shown time and time again that they know what they're doing. I think the more shocking thing is that this is really the first time that their "changes" from the books are getting negatively criticized. Can you think of any other Book to TV/Movie adaptation that doesn't have fans in an uproar about what they cut or change? In my opinion, this is one of if not THE best book adaptation I've ever witnessed.

BUT (This is a key but), the show is getting to a point where they're running out of railroad tracks ahead. You certainly did express your concerns. I did as well. Yes, you cite that I mentioned the showrunners know a bit about how the character arcs will end. They have talked to Martin, but Martin also said they don't know the details of HOW to get to that point because he hasn't written them. I think people are going to have to start coming to terms with the fact that the show may start to deviate more from the books as we go on. And there really is no one to blame. It's just the timing of the situation. Sure, thematically they'll probably be doing things similar. Certain storylines will continue the way they do in the books. But, the TV Show entity needs to have flexibility to do what it needs to do to bring the SHOW to closure.

It's not idea, but that's kind of where we are at. There's also something to be said about actors and storylines and chemistry that works in a TV show vs. the books. Obviously Charles Dance is an amazing actor bringing a great character life on screen. He was not a POV character in the books and did not have this much stuff on the page. But, they sure are going to write for him because he brings a sort of weight to the show that wouldn't be the same if they didn't. Arya and The Hound. They burned through most of their story together in the books already, but they love those 2 actors together and are writing towards that.

Sure...we can get into the discussion of turning pseudo rape into rape and how is that a change worth making? I have no idea. But, I do know it was 1 scene in the 3rd episode of season 4. There are 7 episodes left. We have no idea where they are going with this. The fact that Dan and Dave haven't spoken yet may be because they want the material to speak for itself.

I just think people need to settle down a bit and see where things go before getting too upset. Dan and Dave, I think, have earned that trust. At least they have with me.

Mike V. said...

Of course, this is all contingent on GRRM's status on the books as well. If book 6 comes out at the right time, I'm sure they'll work on adapting that. And if book 7 is somehow in the realm of possibilities, maybe negotiations will take place to make that a reality on the show or with an ending movie or something. We'll see!

Anonymous said...

I agree that they have done a great job of adapting. I have said, this is their first real mistake. Some talk about Dany and Kohl, but there wasn't the investment in those two at that time.

Alex has spoken and made it worse. D&D not speaking has made it worse--maybe. So, it's more than an adaptation problem now. They may THINK these characters are going this way or that. But, they have severely misjudged how this scene was going to be received. So, what they think can't be trusted at this point on this particular subject since Alex especially has proven himself to not understand rape. Alex saying this was not rape is just crazy.

It is my opinion that Alex screwed this up more than any. I have read that D&D didn't agree necessarily on the scene. But Alex shot what they eventually saw. Alex micromanaged the scene from what I've read. And since he doesn't know what rape looks like(based on his statements), then he couldn't have directed this scene properly. Point being a different director with a different sensitivity to rape for today's audience would have made this very differently.

The show's in the can so to speak, so I can't see what can be done to change Jaime from being a rapist. He's a central character with VERY different characteristics now. Where it goes from here as far as the film really can't ever change that. I think this departure from the books is why people are so upset. Although Alex with his rape statement has added in a lot of other non GoT people to the negative side

There are other things in the show like Oberyn that I find have not been adapted well, but since he's not a central character with whom we have invested a lot, I can let it slide some and just fast forward through the junk.

It will be interesting to see how they handle the hound and Arya going forward. Again I'm not upset with that since so far it hasn't had a dramatic impact on the characters themselves.

This is the first time I've seen GRRM indicate a problem with the adaptations and he wasn't happy either. Yes D&D have earned some credit for doing a good job, a great job. And I agree that we should see what happens overall. But Alex has proven himself to be a problem.

AS I said, I'm kind of ready to move on as far as posting about it too. But the amount of info that keeps coming up on this is crazy--lol.


Mike V. said...

Yeah, I think we've both said our pieces at this point. lol It'll be interesting to see what the rest of the fallout will be.

Anonymous said...

Book Stuff**********Spoilers**************************

Now that this has happened, I wonder if MT and TB(L) will have a love scene--lol He's older now. Surely this one will be consummated--lol.


mj said...

Interesting all this redemption stuff - why do you feel Jamie is seeking redemption? Besides his incest whats he done wrong? He's a soldier who has followed orders. Soldiers do bad things no matter the right or wrong of it. Yes it was his job to protect the king but didn't he kill him to stop something horrible? I don't see that he needs redemption

Mike V. said...

Jaime Lannister - Threw Bran out a window to keep his incestuous love for his sister and his fatherhood to the King's sons hidden. Fought Ned Stark in King's Landing adding fuel to the fire for the eventual war of the 5 kings. Had illegitimate children with his SISTER and passed them off as the King's heirs! Sure, a lot of this was Cersei's doing too, but he was involved.

There may be more I'm forgetting. But he certainly has done his fair share of things to characters we like where we start off hating him and then grow to like him in the books and also the show. The point of all this discussion by book fans is that this "rape" scene goes against what Jaime's character is in the books.

Yes, he is also known as the Kingslayer so he has a bad reputation. Westeros really doesn't know WHY he did what he did. They just speak to how it was not honorable to kill the person you're sworn to defend. Even if people wanted Aerys dethroned.

On the show he also killed a distant Lannister to stage his own escape from imprisonment in Robb Stark's camp. Something similar happened in the books.

There are plenty of bad things he has done.

************BOOK STUFF***********

Took me awhile to figure out who you were talking about Richard. lol They certainly aged him up for a reason....but the fun about Margaery in the books is all the speculation about how she "sleeps around" but her reputation is that she still has her maidenhood. lol On the show they kind of play with this a bit too. She never slept with Renly, she never slept with Joffrey. But, she also was giving Sansa tips about men...and Sansa asked if her mother taught her these things...and she sarcastically said "yes". lol But a lot of AFFC deals with Cersei trying to set up MT with other dudes or something like that. I can't remember exactly. So, it'll be interesting to see what they do with TB(L). lol

mj said...

Lol - forgot Bran. But the rest is war. He might have fought Ned and chars we like but that is war. don't feel he needs redemption for that. I acknowledged the incest - didn't state lying about his kids origins though.

You really feel he's looking for redemption though? I don't. I think he doesn't always like himself and what he does - but feel he's seeking redemption

Mike V. said...

MJ - Well, maybe deep down he feels he is a better person than people give him credit for and he has been used by his family for their personal gain. But, he also had done horrible things for that family as well.

I think it's more the fans of the book who are championing Jaime as a character seeking redemption. Obviously, GRRM wrote towards that and made us initially think one way about him and then differently. But, GRRM made no illusions that Jaime has done horrible things...and regardless of Cersei eventually consenting in the books in that "definitely different circumstaces scene" that this represents, Jaime did force himself on her to initiate the session.

As I've stated (or all of us have), I think the major theme of this episode was a reminder that this world is full of awful people who do awful things. Even the people we started liking more. (The Hound, Jaime, Ygritte as examples from this episode. There was even a reminder of the people who populate the Night's Watch: Rapists, Murderers, etc...)

While Jaime has been on a better path and we've seen a better side of him with Brienne, there were many factors that led that scene with the rape. Which obviously I do not condone! First, Jaime was on this quest with Brienne that has changed him. His love for Cersei was one of thing things that urged him on. The idea of one day be reuniting with her meant the world to him. But, he also forged this relationship with Brienne that is pretty meaningful as well. When he comes home maimed...he is reminded of how old he is by his son and his father. He is disowned by his father for refusing to leave the Gold Cloaks, he is called useless by his son, his sister/lover rejected him because of his missing hand....his son dies while he is on the job of defending another king (his nickname still is the King Slayer as well mind you)....

Then when he approaches his grieving sister/lover...she asks him to kill his brother (one whom he loves very much) who she accused of killing their illegitimate son. She is using their love to manipulate him....but then they get to passionately kissing...and his iron hand touches her face and she pushes him away. She can't handle the fact that he is no longer whole. And that is when he loses it and reverts back to his old ways. The cumulation of all of that hate that has come on to his character turned him into that monster. Sure, Cersei eventually consented in the books. She certainly made no secret that she feels differently about him when he returns in the books too.

Bottom line - I don't think this is character assassination. Maybe Alex Graves did more harm than good trying to define what constitutes rape. It's a touchy subject and this scene has been blown out of proportion.

So yeah, that's where I currently stand on things. (the subject I said I'm tired of discussing but continue to anyway lol)

Anonymous said...

OK, I've got to add some balance here.
1. In the book Cersei doesn't just consent, she asks for Jaime to take her and she actually physically guides him to her--more than just consent.
2. I don't think it was intentional character assassination(I've come down from there--lol). But Jaimee has done a lot to be the anti rape guy whereas he is now going to be known as a rapist. AT least to most who watched that scene. He will never get rid of being a rapist now and so his character has been changed.
3. Everyone making the scene initially involved said it was a tough scene indicating that it was rape or at least against her will. Later several changed their story to say it wasn't rape.
4. GRRM who has NEVER apologized for a scene before, but did so in this case. That should tell us how bad this situation is.
5. To say the response is out of proportion is hard to justify given the above, esp #4. The response has been huge because the scene was such a big departure from the book and then Alex said it wasn't rape when it obviously was. He is probably most responsible for this being blown up beyond just the adaptation issues. So, hard to blame the fans there.
6.IMO, the show runners should have apologized for this as GRRM did. (To me, he showed how much more mature and professional he is than the other show runners in doing so--just ask professional damage control experts) That would have kept this from being such a big deal. So, they need to accept some of the blame for it escalating, it's just damage control 101 which they didn't follow.


Anonymous said...

New articles on the issue. This story won't easily go away--lol. I think in large part because of the large fan base and Alex's stuff.
This one is meant to be a funny satire.

Interesting comparison to Breaking Bad/Justified

There are so many articles on this scene but most are just junk and too much about pushing a particular point of view beyond purpose of this blog.


Mike V. said...

Thanks for the links RIchard. I'm inclined to agree with both of them with how ridiculous this has all gotten. Here's my response to your "balance" points" lol

1. Yeah, there is some horribly written dialogue in that scene of her "consent". It's a bad example of the writings George does and may prevent people from picking up the books. The fact that Cersei says "Do me do me do me do me" is just embarrassing! lol But, my point was that Jaime forced himself on her and she initially pushed away. Even though she eventually gave in, some out there still consider that rape. But, I'm not going to enter that debate myself. The scenes were clearly had different purposes in the book vs. the TV show. I'm still going with the whole build-up to that scene is what caused Jaime to lose it. At least that's what they were going for. And if there was build-up, then that would make us assume that the "storyline" will continue into the next episode. So, there could be some kind of fallout from it rather than it be a one off thing. I'm really thinking that's why Beniof and Weiss haven't said anything yet. Maybe the want the show to speak for itself.
2. He did ONE thing on the show to be the anti-rape guy. He cared for Brienne enough to not let her lose her maidenhood to Bolton's thugs in a mass rape. I know..rape is rape...but Cersei/Jaime's relationship is complicated and I think viewers can view the 2 encounters differently. Mainly because Cersei is meant to be hated a bit. lol Sure, many people will now view Jaime differently. I won't. Does that make me a horrible person? I still like The Hound. He's a pretty horrible person too! But, he prevented a rape from happening as well. lol
3. The only person I've really seen talk about it is Alex Graves. If it wasn't meant to be rape I think we all agree there were some key points of dialogue missing from Cersei's part acknowledging the change of heart. Sure, she said "we can't" which can be interpreted as "yes, I want to....but this is the wrong place and time and I don't like that you don't have 2 hands." But adding in a simple "yes yes...take me do me do me do me do me" would have probably prevented this whole debate. The problem with that is...I don't think they really want Cersei getting on board with any Jaime loving....they've already clearly showed that she thinks he's not whole anymore. So, they probably made a decision to have her resisting Jaime's advances. Right, wrong or indifferent that could be why they did it. And maybe they want the show to speak to the rest. Obviously, there are more Jaime/Cersei scenes coming our way before the end of the season.

Mike V. said...

4. GRRM pretty much wanted to distance himself from this due to the subject matter I'm thinking. The scene was different than his for more than one reason and he wasn't involved. He never said he didn't like it (people have read into it that way because that's what they want to read). He was very PC in his response. It can be interpreted either way you want it to. But yes...I can acknowledge the situation is the worst PR issue the show has faced.
5. I really don't think it's hard to justify at all. People always blow things out of proportion! This is a TV show. It's fiction! It's "BASED ON" but not literally word ford word a book series. Changes will be made. We should question, "WHY did they make that change?" before we start throwing stones. They've made changes in the past and they've been corrected to resume the path of the show before. This one is a big difference in character. But, one could argue that throwing a pregnant Talisa into the Red Wedding was a pretty big change to the books also. Also, a fetus was murdered! Isn't that worse than rape in terms of topical issues? (Don't get me wrong, they're both wrong...I'm just trying to make a point) You never know what's going to set the Internet off. Alex Graves probably should've thought twice before he unintentionally was trying to define what constitutes rape. And one line uttered weeks before the episode even aired to Alan Sepinwall has now become the target for all of the internet's darts. I'm not saying he was right to say it, but people make mistakes! And that was one person's opinion. If you ask Benioff and Weiss they may say the intention was to indicate non-consent, but "tune in to the rest of the season because there's a reason for it." Which brings us to point 6.
6. Yes, I agree that D&D should have said something by now. But, they're pretty smart showrunners. Sure, they haven't had to deal with bad publicity on this show before but there has to be a reason they've stayed quiet. Either they're constructing the best response to the outcries or they want the show to speak for itself. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt due to their track record with the show.

Sure, I'm an apologist for shows I love. But, I really hate when the internet gets all in an uproar about this stuff. We all know rape is bad. But come on, it's a TV show at the end of the day. And it's a show that is not finished. Let's see where they're going with this before we throw any more darts.

Anonymous said...

I think there is WAY too much hype over this "Rape" scene. Everyone is acting as if this is the most offensive thing that has ever happened. It is FICTION people! And haven't we seen Joffrey treat women in a much more violent and deadly manner without blinking an eye at it? And there is no doubt in my mind that Cersae would "rape" Jamie in some way if it was to her advantage -- she uses him just as badly or worse than he used her in this scene. I am not condoning rape, but GEEZ it's just part of the story!!! Get over it already!

Mike V. said...

Anonymous - I agree with you that people need to get over it, as I've been saying too. But, I don't think the issue is just the rape scene in general. It's things surrounding it.

A.) It happened differently in the books and there is a passionate following of Jaime's character arc in the books. So, the way it seems right now, this seems to contradict a bit with how things happened in the book. But, considering the world this takes place in and Jaime's struggle with right and wrong and his love for Cersei (combined with her manipulation of him), I think people may be overreacting a tad.

B.) Director Alex Graves made comments that he thought it wasn't rape which started a slew of unintended backlash and a debate on what constitutes rape.

Those 2 things combined have created the media frenzy that has even trumped Ned Stark slitting a fictional Direwolf's throat in season 1 episode 2. lol