Monday, April 14, 2014

Game of Thrones: Season 4 Episode 2 - The Lion and the Rose

Hello everyone and welcome back to our Game of Thrones discussion!  Well, it finally happened!  The Purple Wedding has come and gone.  And now we can finally talk about why fans (not George R.R. Martin) labeled it that.  I'm sure this episode shocked TV viewers not just in the sense of what happened, but the fact that it happened in episode 2 of the season rather than later on.  If this isn't an indication that the 2nd half of A Storm of Swords (Book 3) has a lot of amazing moments, I don't know what else could be!  I'm going to jump right into some discussion points after I give our weekly "spoilers" disclaimer".

I will always clearly label when I'm about to delver into future book stuff as I would hope fellow book readers would do in the comments.  In the "Safe for all"sections, I will talk about differences from the books for plot points that have already occurred in both.

Let's do this!

Discussion Points

TV Talk

As I mentioned last week, my goal here isn't to recap the whole episode. James Hibberd already does a great job of that at EW.  I'm just providing a place where us TV Addicts can discuss the show and where I can jot down some things that I found interesting.  That said, here are EW's links of the Purple Wedding Coverage:
  1. EW Recap
  2. Showrunners Discuss
  3. GRRM discusses why he originally wrote the story in the book
  4. Jack Gleason discusses his experience on the show
By the way, this appears to be the 1 episode this season that George R. R. Martin wrote the script for. He did a fine job!  Now get back to writing Winds of Winter, George! There were several stories in addition to King's Landing so let's cover those first. 

  • For the record, none of this was still really in the book.  But, it definitely stays faithful to eventually what happens in the books.  We saw Ramsay Snow playing a little hunting game with a female interest.  (I can't say for sure I know who that character is)  The scene was 2-fold.  It continued to show how brutal of a character Ramsay is and it showed how Theon has fully converted to Reek and his is fully in submission to his new master.  Kudos to Alfie Allen for pulling it off too!  
  • We had a scene between Ramsay Snow and Roose Bolton.  Unless there was any confusion before, Roose was not happy with what Ramsay took upon himself to do to Theon and actions he took in communication to Balon Greyjoy.  There was an amazing scene of Ramsay asking Reek to shave.   Ramsay proved that Reek was still useful.  He admitted to Roose that Bran and Rickon were still alive and that they were probably at The Wall.  It also made Jon Snow a target in the process.  And Ramsay brought up the news that Robb Stark (whom Theon loved as a brother) was dead.  Yet still, no attempt on Ramsay's life was made.  Pretty intense stuff!   And I'd say much better than the torturing scenes last year. 
  • And, I don't know if transitions to people eating sausage will ever get old!  

North of the Wall
  • Bran continued to warg with Summer, his direwolf.  This actually was right out of one of the books.  He was enjoying his mobility and hunting/eating as a wolf.   Jojen and Meeren explained to Bran that eating as Summer will not nourish him also.   And they also warned of losing himself in what he wargs with.   He needs to still live as Bran as well or this is all for nothing. 
  • The big reveal here is the connection Bran felt with the weirwood (Heart Tree) when he touched it.  These trees are usually in godswoods across the 7 realms where the Northerners pray to the old gods.   The trees have faces originally carved into them that were supposedly carved there by the children of the forest, and was later done by the First Men and descendants of the First Men.  
  • When Bran touched the tree he went into one of his warging/dream states and was seeing flashes to the past (Ned Stark with Ice) and possibly the future (the King's Landing Throne Room with the roof ripped open and Winter having come!  Note: Dany saw this same scene in the season 2 Tower of the Undying prophecy on the TV Show.  The prophecy was much different in the book.)   There was a very powerful voice suggesting Bran to find him and go North.  Of course, I know who this is, but I'm not going to spoil!  But, in case you missed it, there was a shot of the 3 eyed raven yet again that Bran has been seeing since season 1.  So, there's that to chew on.   And as if Bran wasn't going North already, he now knows he needs to continue going North! 

  • Certainly the weakest storyline of the show right now.  After all that talk of action at the end of season 3, Stannis and crew are still taking their dandy old time at Dragonstone just burning family members at the stake, worshipping the lord of light, and showing how bizarre Stannis' wife Selyse is! 
  • More to come here.  I, like Hibberd on EW, don't really have much to say here for now!
Kings Landing
  • So much to discuss.  First, we had a scene of Jaime and Tyrion finally catching up.  Tyrion was a "little" sympathetic to his brother having lost a hand.  In fact, it may have pleased him that he wasn't the only Lannister with a physical disadvantage.  He suggested Jaime start working on training his left hand to use a sword.  This became a perfect opportunity to expand Bronn's role on the TV Show (over the book) more.  This stuff begins in A Feast for Crows in the book and Jaime uses Ser Ilyn (The King's Justice.  The man with no tongue who also used ICE to slice off Ned Stark's head.  He also is on Arya's list.) to spar with.  Ser Ilyn was a perfect sparring partner as he has no tongue to tell people what Jaime has been doing.  But, Bronn works too.  You pay him enough, and he is your loyal servant!  Plus, this pairing of Jaime and Bronn looks sure to pay dividends.  
  • Tyrion also became aware that his relationship to Shae has been exposed to Cersei.  It was only a matter of time before Tywin becomes aware of it too.  We see this at one of the pre-wedding ceremonies when Cersei points Shae out to Tywin.   Tyrion has no choice but to break things off with Shae and he does it in a pretty insulting fashion.  Sure, he still told her that he enjoyed her the most of all of the whores he's been with, but he wants to be loyal to his wife.  He is planning to set her up nice in Pentos across the Narrow Sea.  (Pentos is where we saw Dany's story begin in season 1.  Note that Varys says he has friends across the Narrow Sea and we saw him speaking to Illyrio in season 1 in the lower levels of the Red Keep (dragon skulls, Arya spotted them discussing how danger was coming to her father).   That may have made no sense, but just something to keep in mind.  So, we have no visual confirmation that Shae is actually gone, but Bronn said she was.  Even though he may have mentioned he was being followed too.  I will note that this scene was not in the books to my recollection.  But, I kinda see where it's going. 
  • At that same pre-wedding ceremony, gifts were brought to Joffrey and Margaery.  Loved the Joffrey/Tyrion tension.  He started off being polite and then sliced open Tyrion's book gift with his new Valaryian steel sword, The Widow's Wail.  
  • The wedding went down as we have seen King's Landing weddings go down in the past.  Of course, there were more people present than at Sansa and Tyrion's.  And, no stool was needed to put the coat of protection on his wife.  
  • But the exciting stuff happened at the Reception itself.   Lots of interesting pairings that the showrunners fully admitted to doing because they may never get this chance again.  This many characters are rarely in one location.   I loved the Cersei/Brienne and Jaime/Ser Loras pairings.  Started off all sweet, but then got pretty cruel in the end.  Brienne froze when Cersei asked if she loved Jaime.   They never went as far to admitting that in the books either, but there certainly is some kind of feeling/bond between the 2.  But Loras wins the best quote of the night when Jaime says you will never marry Cersei.  He retorts, "Neither will you."  The delivery and slam was perfect!  
  • There were some hints of tension to come with Oberyn Martell and Ellaria Sand running into Tywin and Cersei.   Oberyn noted how it was good for Cersei and her daughter Myrcella that the Dornish do not find it customary to rape women and children.  Again this conversation started pretty pleasant and took a turn for the worse.   The moral of this show?  Everybody pretty much hates everyone and they just mask it behind a smiling face to play the Game of Thrones!
  • There was a great quote where Lady Olenna was speaking to Sansa, and I believe it may have been straight from the books.  Something to the fact that killing someone at a wedding being horrific.  And the punchline being that men don't need anything else to fear in addition to getting married!  
  • But, the big star of this wedding was Joffrey Baratheon (*cough* Lannister).  If anyone still found anything redeemable about this character, his final sequence tried to get those thoughts out of your mind.  He was deplorable right up until his final sip.  I will say, that I was watching this 15 minute sequence under the microscope for clues on the "whodunnit" map.  I will not spoil it obviously, but I will say that they choreographed and mapped the scene out brilliantly.  Everything that needed to happen happened.  You might want to keep this episode saved on your DVRs!  
  • Joffrey was bored with the pleasantries coming his way and insulted Margaery's ex-husband Renly and which visually displeased Maraery and Brienne.  He threw coins at a band playing the Rains of Castamere (which apparently is some real band) to get them to go away.   And of course, he brought out the dwarfs to insult his uncle one last time.  But, in the process it insulted Renly further (accusing him of his homosexual tendencies) and Robb Stark, which displeased Sansa.  He pretty much insulted everyone at the wedding in one way or another.  But, his main target was Tyrion.  Tyrion got in his quips but he mainly was trying to keep his composure, even as Joffrey forced him to be his cup-bearer.   (Note the Dwarfs rode on pigs in the book, but apparently this was technically feasible or it was frowned upon by PETA or something.  There was also a character in the books that it looks like will not be revealed on the show in a female dwarf that was part of the theater group)
  • The pigeon pie came out, Joffrey sliced it open as the tradition goes, and killed a few pigeons in the process.  But, he did not forget to keep insulting Tyrion as he ate his pie and grabbed his wine, that may or may not have been set aside for a minute or 2.  And before we know it, the king was choking!!  The first to run to his aid was his secret father Jaime Lannister, Cersei wasn't far behind.  But there was nothing left to do except watch the life pass out of Joffrey Baratheon.  Of course, it was shot in a way that made you watch the horror of choking to death, more than triumph that the punk is finally getting his due.  His last act was to point out who he thinks is the culprit.  All eyes are on Tyrion who is examining the wine glass.  Cersei commands the guards to seize Tyrion, which they do.  While this is happening Ser Dontos (the fool) quickly comes to Sansa and says if she wants to live she must go with him.  We don't see what happens there, but we can assume she listens!   And the last shot we have is of King Joffrey's face, turned purple.  Please do not RIP Joffrey.  We're still a little P.O.'d that you called for Ned's head! 
Whew, crazy crazy episode!  That wedding scene was so tense the entire time.  Maybe it was more for a book reader who knew what was coming.  Maybe the TV viewer could feel the mounting tension as well.  In any case, it was done very well!  So what next?  Basically, this season takes on the form of a murder mystery with Tyrion front and center as a suspect.  We as the audience don't think Tyrion did it, but he certainly has the motive, which they've been building up a lot since last season.  So, the characters on this show have reason to doubt his honesty.  It's sure to be an awesome ride!  Oh right, and the throne is empty!  Some interesting political games are about to come afoot as well.  

I'm actually going to skip the book talk this week.  I'll probably get into it in the comments, but I've already said so much!  So, hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you next week!


Anonymous said...

OK, I've been waiting since last season for this ep, thanks for recapping,etc.
1. I think it's no accident that the ep starts with one sadistic person and ends with another. Will be interesting to see how Ramsay does on his new assignment
2. Is it me or are the wierwood tree opening shots bigger this year? Loved the Bran stuff. And the throne room at KL IMHO will turn out to be that way at sometime for real.
3. Wait till Roose finds out what's coming down from the North---lol.
4. Loras and Oberyn will happen, they let us know that at the reception, ick. Did that happen in the books? Loras was upset that Renly's character had his pants down and butt showing for the play.
5. You didn't need to be a book reader to know who poisoned JOffrey--lol. Some of my family watched with me last night and they all figured it out on their own. I would not confirm--lol. It will be interesting to see how many guess correctly who it is?
6.I totally agree on the Stannis front. It was so urgent 2 eps ago to head North--the crows delivered the message, Melissandra said they will need Davos, etc. Now we're bogged down in a story about the lord of light killings to root out the unbelievers, etc.
7. BTW, when I was watching Bran and the wierwood it occured to me that this contrasts to the lord of light stuff too. That is-one religion vs another.
8.Did you notice how much bigger/older Joffrey's brother is now? Shouldn't he be king.
9.I loved that Cersei's position was made such a big deal and she fought for keeping power. I wonder what Margery will do now. I mean she's really the one in power as true Queen.
10. I think the conversation between Tywin and Olleana was big,particularly about the Iron Bank. Other good stuff there too. And laughed when she shoooed away her husband for Tywin--lol.


Unknown said...

The Dreadfort stuff is implied in book 5 and is a lot of Flashbacks, so we can assume chronologically it makes sense to be in there, that being said Roose Bolton does NOT show up until much later but I think they are trying to hammer home the relationship between Ramsey and Roose in case we didnt know...

Count me as one of the ones shocked that they did all this in one episode, this means they HAVE to start getting into Book 4 stuff this season or theres simply not enough left, even with at least a few major plots left to be uncovered..

overall it was very well done, though the episode itself UNTIL the wedding was pretty average imho..i liked Bronn instead of Illyn Payne (though him saying "i need a man to keep quiet" REALLY implied it was going to BE Illyn Payne again)

Mike V. said...


1.) I thought the same thing. It was a bit of a passing of the torch. lol
2.) Like in the opening credits? Didn't notice if they were bigger or not. Yeah the Bran stuff was finally good...though I feel like they're going to run out of real-estate soon (i.e. catch up to the books). There still is the introduction to CH which they have delayed from when it happens in the books.
3.) lol...indeed.
4.) I kinda called that last week with Loras and Oberyn not that it took a genius. You have a gay Loras and Oberyn who seemingly swings both was bound to happen! lol And no, it was not in the books.
5.) Yeah...I thought it was pretty blatant too, but I thought it might be because I read the books. We'll see if MJ has any guesses and won't confirm either way!
6.) sense wasting more time talking about it!
7.)'s all Magic...I don't really know if GRRM or the show will prove one god(s) is the true god or not over another. But, the magic certainly is coming back to Westeros/Essos.
8.) Tommen definitely looked older. Someone in the EW comments said it's a new of the Lannister kids killed by Karstark last season. I thought it still looked like the same actor. We'll see. But theoretically if the Tyrell's don't contest the throne, yes Tommen is next in line.
9.) A mourning, drunk Cersei is sure to be entertaining that's for sure. I loved reading her eventual POV chapters. They were so ridiculous! lol But, we're not quite to that material yet
10.) Yep, Iron Bank stuff definitely has impacts, I agree. I don't think Mace Tyrell is Ollena's husband. It's Margaery and Loras's father. She's their grandmother.

@AUSW/Scott - Yes, the Dreadford stuff is certainly implied. I was just saying it was technically in the books. We're still in the material that predated the Reek chapters in book 5. But yes, it was all implied in flashbacks. The Moat Cailin stuff is certainly mentioned. I'm guessing that's where they're going to fight with Yara/Asha....which we technically didn't read about in the books either. But they started setting that up last season.

Definitely trying to hammer home the Roose/Ramsay relationship...I think they're also trying to make Roose a bigger presence in the show than he is in the know since he was so involved in the Red Wedding.

As for not thinking they'd do it all in one episode, I tried to warn you "offline" last week! I think you're forgetting how much was in the 2nd half of A Storm of Swords. I'll go into "BOOK STUFF" mode in my next post to hint at some stuff. But yes, they're definitely getting into book 4/5 stuff this season (at least for other storylines if not the King's Landing stuff). They have said in interviews they're not going to stall for time. They're going to trim fat and tell the story. They kinda know how it ends based on discussions with GRRM and will write towards the end with or without the books. But, that will make the end product of the TV show vs. the Books probably drastically different. We shall see!

The Bronn/Illyn stuff...yeah they certainly suggested it would be Payne. I think there was another issue more than just Bronn getting more screen time. The actor that plays Ser Illyn unfortunately has some type of cancer, so I'm not sure he has come back to the show.

Mike V. said...

Book Stuff ***Abbreviated/Hinted at Spoilers***

Things still to come....T's trial, and eventually the RV vs. TM....that will probably need to be near the end of the season. All the stuff with LF & S and the vale. I'm guessing episode 9 might be T's escape from KL and what transpires in the process.

I didn't note above, but did you notice Tywin asks for a certain someone to be brought to his tower? I'm going to guess he succeeded in that command. lol

I'm going to guess we'll have some Jaime and Varys visits to T while he's imprisoned.

Of course there will be some Cersei vs. Margaery stuff....though I forget how much is in book 3 vs. 4.

I also can't remember if the Purple Wedding happened before or after Jaime showed up in King's Landing in the books. I think it was before.

There's all the stuff at the WALL (the battle...the naming of a new Lord Commander etc..) and the Book 3 Meereen stuff that they need to tackle this season. And maybe they'll start diving into Pyke stuff. Though, they may write that out of the show.

I'm sure they'll start diving into Brienne's book 4 story. (MAYBE)

I think that LS will be the final shot of episode 10 just like it is in book 3.

There's plenty of material where most of book 4/5 will still be next year. And if they're lucky, book 6 will arrive in time for them to start adapting that. lol

*****END Book Spoilers for now*****

Zainab Sher said...


WOW what an episode! I loved it and have been waiting for it since the time I read about joffery's death in books. Lots of stuff was happening in book during the wedding so I was really curious as to how they were going to do it and they did is masterfully. I love these show runners, they are brilliant. I was watching the wedding and the sheer joy to see how many character joffery was pissing off was enough to declare GOT as a master of all tv shows. lol

Much of what I wanted to write got covered by the post Richard made. He put it down better than me. :D

There is one thing that bothered me and it is not big thing, it is the casting of Margery's father. I imagined someone clever looking somehow. He came across a nice heavy weight chap. Did not suite the Tyrell vibe.
Tommen is lot bigger than the book tommen.
brilliant episode over all and thanks for all the links :)

Mike V. said...

Ahh...Zainab, I didn't know you were a book reader too! Totally agree, the episode was handled awesomely. These showrunners definitely have a gift for adapting these massive novels into an entertaining television show.

I don't really remember Mace Tyrell being a formidable character in the books. Sure, he's important but I think they want to distinguish who is really wearing the pants in the Tyrell Family. I could be wrong, and maybe we're wrong about his first impression. lol

As for the "aging up" of Tommen, it's probably to support some of the storylines that will be coming up. It works in a book, but TV-wise? I dunno!

No problem on the links!

Anonymous said...

Book Stuff*********Spoilers******************

1. I think we'll see S with Brienne and Oathkeeper heading out this season, probably earlier than most expect. Based on Sansa being taken to safety last ep and a Danny/north ep next week, I am saying one of the following 2 eps after Danny/north ep.
2. I think Tommen is being made to look much older this season for similar reason as no pigs--audience acceptance.
3. I'm really looking forward to the wall stuff.
4. The show runners said they were going to have more battles than in the books this season. So, yea I expect a Frey vs "Snow/Bolton" battle.
5. T will spend a lot of time "in the dark" this season and yes with visitors. Looking forward to the conversations.
6.I am hoping the RV vs TM fight occurs before ep 9.
7. Yea, LS at the end of ep 10 would be a big deal and leave a lot of people talking.
8. I think we'll be dealing with a lot of Meerreen stuff next ep since none this week.


Mike V. said...

***BOOK STUFF (but probably won't mean much unless you read Richard's lol) ***

1.) Right...forgot about Oathkeeper. lol Not sure why you're saying "S" there though. She goes out on her own...and runs into "P". But I don't think she ever finds S. But yes, we'll get more Dany and Jon Snow next week.
2.) Agreed, that was my point too. lol
3.) Me too!
4.) Definitely more battles, but Frey vs. Bolton?? hmmm...I dunno. We may see Locke (made up TV character who chopped off Jaime's hand) at Castle Black though.
5.) Yep
6.) Probably episode 7 or 8 I would think. I really have no idea. lol
7.) yep
8.) Agreed.

Anonymous said...

Book Stuff***********
1. You're right. For some reason I thought she found S in book 3 or 4?
4. Yea I meant Greyjoy, not Frey--I can't keep my names straight--lol. They've been setting it up since last season. Theon's sister vs Roose's son. I wonder if Reek will go along for this fight against his sister???


Mike V. said...


1. you're making me look it up because now I doubt my memory. lol But no, she doesn't. At one point she actually ends up on the path of "A" instead of "S"....but eventually she runs into "LS". lol But that's all book 4 so it'll be interesting to see how much gets into this season.
4. Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking they have been setting up too. Good question on Reek!

mj said...

I almost feel sorry that you guys know whats coming. Def knew something would happen - never dreamed it would be Joeffrey's death!!! I def have some guesses as to who did it but want to watch again now that I know what to look at. I really had no idea he was dying at his wedding. Maergery doesn't get to be queen long. So figuring not a Tyrelle. Maybe the Fool.

So that kid on the dais is his brother? Guess he's king now.
Thanks for info on face in tree - had no clue what that ws about.

Lol on the sausages. And agree Loras had best line

Thought a book eader told me that Oberron did not go both ways in books?

mj said...

Oh -and its seize ot cease. Greyjob? Lol

Anonymous said...

You have identified one of the last scenes of the season, perhaps. Did you mean to do that?????


mj said...

Ot s/b not

Mike V. said...

@MJ's tough to know what's coming, but it's also awesome to see it play out and see how TV fans react. Just a different type of fun! :-) I don't regret reading the books though. They're so good, especially the book we're still currently adapting. That said, this show has to be one of the best adapted Movies/TV series in history. They're doing such a good job with it. I'm just glad we haven't spoiled anything major for you by accident yet! lol

With the evidence provided so far, you're guesses aren't too bad actually! But, that's all I'm going to say for now. :)

So yeah Tommen is another Jaime/Cersei product and Joffrey's younger brother and next in line for the throne. We saw Cersei with him on the Iron Throne during the Blackwater battle. She was going to poison him and her so that they died together before the siege of King's Landing. But Tywin came barreling in. They've now appropriately aged Tommen a little bit for what's to come. But, I don't want to say any more there either! But, he's definitely a more decent person than his monster older brother. And don't forget Myrcilla is in Dorne, which was alluded to in this episode. (Cersei/Jaime's daughter)

No problem on the trees. If you go back and watch older episodes, you'll see they've shown the weirwood trees many times. Sometimes they are crying red tears. But, they will come more into play as we go forward. I did forget to say that the man's quote in Bran's green dream/warging session was "look for me under the tree.....NORTH" I said "Find me" in the recap I think. lol

I read some comments that apparently Oberyn's attractions to both men and women were alluded to in the books, but I don't remember that. But he definitely NEVER got with Loras in the books. I just figured from last week that was somewhere the show might go.

Mike V. said...

Richard, who are you talking to? lol I did not identify one of the last scenes of the season. I identified something in a "noted spoiler" comment that happens in book 4...not at the end of book 3. :-)

And MJ, were you calling out typos in the recap? I'll go check them. lol Thanks!

mj said...

Lots of peeps are saying Oberron - but I don't think he was ever near the goblet? Could be the pie though. And eeew! Pigeon pie

Anonymous said...

I was referencing something you said in Book Stuff. I did not know if you meant to do it on purpose, was suspecting it might come this season, etc. Even if someone read your comment, they wouldn't have a true spoiler due to our "code"--lol.

MJ, I love your input and guesses. BTW, what do you mean by:

"Ot s/b not" Another code I need to figure out?

I so much like "knowing" what's going to happen because it usually doesn't happen exactly when or how I suspect, but have an appreciate for the details of what's going on in the scene. Much more appreciation than normally since I'm focused on the big picture then. They are doing a great job of adapting the story. For example, I was getting concerned that the murder wouldn't happen this ep as we came closer to the end of the allotted time.


Mike V. said...

@MJ - Not saying anything! Don't want to spoil the fun. lol Well, I will say that no I did not see Oberyn near the goblet. Though, I think I remember speculating about him when I read the book. Anything is possible. Even if someone didn't physically poison the wine, they may have been a conspirator. :)

@Richard - I thought I was pretty clear saying that I have no idea how far they'll take that particular someone's storyline this season. But, I'm thinking it won't go THAT far since there is an earlier reveal that has to happen before THAT happens, which we are suspecting will be the FINAL scene of this season. So yeah, probably season 5 for the 2nd sighting.

BTW...MJ was just correctiny a typo in her previous comment. It wasn't code. :) lol

Yeah I know what you mean about appreciating the details. It was just like the Red Wedding...i knew it was coming, but I was almost on the edge of my seat hoping they'd pull it off. I swear I was following that goblet from frame to frame among other things that were happening that i don't want to say for fear of saying too much! There's one scene in particular that will be a fun one to watch in hindsight that I happened to notice as it was happening. Aww hell I gotta go to spoiler section! lol


When O is talking to S, she is talking about "killing a man at his own wedding" and she happens to reach out and touch S's hair. In the very next frame, a gem of the necklace is missing. It's so blatantly obvious if you know to be looking for it. Actually, I think even TV viewers might catch this too...especially with D coming to get S in the final shots of the episode. All it would take is one rewatch to put the pieces together.

**************************OKAY YOU CAN READ AGAIN! **************

Anonymous said...

Book Stuff***********************************Serious*Spoilers***************************************************

OK, so yea my family all guessed O. I kind of like that there are 2 characters with O by the way--lol. Anyway, I think they guessed based on goblet position, camera angles and who was in the frame as well as prior comments. Great catching the jewel missing. That goblet was fun to watch moving around, hitting the ground, Sansa picking up, etc.

In a way I think that was a way to keep the book readers on the edge of their seats--lol.

BTW, we still have a Jaime/Cersei scene yet to come. In a way I don't know why Jaime/Cersei haven't married--as did the Targaryeans. Certainly the story would be VERY different, but there is precedence for a marriage, so I didn't find the Loras quote as funny as maybe others. It was well delivered, but necessarily true.

Thanks for the heads up on MJ's "code"--lol.


Anonymous said...

I should have said, "not necessarily true"

Mike V. said...


Agree that the "watch the goblet" game was totally in there for the book readers. lol

So even guessing the right character who actually did the deed is only half the battle....there is still a whole 2nd half to that mystery that no one would probably guess unless they were tipped off. And of course, if they stay true to the books...we'll also be getting reveals on who killed Jon Arryn and who attempted to kill Bran with Tyrion's dagger in Winterfell too. So much good information in A Storm of Swords that can potentially make it into the show.

You don't know why they haven't married??? lol The #1 reason would probably be Tywin would forbid it. But yes, that's what Cersei keeps justifying it, the Targaryan angle. I don't think the rest of Westeros is onboard with that idea! So between Tywin forbidding and it generally being frowned upon, I think the Loras line holds up.


Mike V. said...

Behind the scenes at the wedding:

mj said...

Lol on 'code'

mj said...

True about conspirators

Anonymous said...

If the rest of Westeros isn't good with a Jaime/Cersei wedding, then the Targaryeans must not have been liked. I have to agree that Jaimee/Cersei has problems, it's just that I thought the Targaryeans were so loved and yet they were known for such marriages.

Yea, Tywin wouldn't like it, he wants a huge multiplication of powerful Lannisters. Which a J/C marriage wouldn't get him. But, it is the union of those 2 which have brought him his only heirs--lol. I think eventually Tywin will find out if he doesn't already suspect. I think Olleanna suspects it too. AT this point, it's getting to be one of those "worst kept secrets"--lol. Hence, Loras's line having some degree of comedy.

If I am wrong about the Targaryeans being so loved, then Dany coming back to rule might have more difficulty than I thought.


Mike V. said...

Yeah it's definitely a secret everyone knows. lol

Here's an excerpt from Targaryan wiki page:

"House Targaryen historically followed the gods of Valyria. Sometime before the conquest of the Seven Kingdoms, the Targaryens abandoned the Valyrian gods and converted to the Faith of the Seven, the predominant religion in Westeros. However, they continued to follow the Valyrian practice of incestuous marriage, wedding brother to sister, cousin to cousin, uncle to niece and aunt to nephew, holding themselves apart from and above the noble Westerosi families."

It's not a tradition followed by anyone other than the targaryans. And I don't know how recently they kept it up. Not sure if the mad king married a sibling or even Rhaegar. Of course we suspect Rhaegar loved someone else! And of course Dany didn't marry her only surviving brother!

mj said...

My husband thinks Tywin may have killed Joffrey. Joffrey was not to be controlled and with his brother on the throne Tywin could essentially run everything fr behind scenes.

Rewatche some of wedding notice Oleana gives Tyripn a look when he grabs that last cup of wine - also oleana clos to goblet when Margary sets it on their table

Mike V. said...

Nice Observations! No Comment. :)

Anonymous said...

I want to comment, but won't! This is a big part of this season after all--the who dunnit--lol.

For me, I'm looking for the off/extra book stuff and battles, love those. Watching one of my favorite characters, etc. And of course, I really like the events/mysteries surrounding the wall/North



Anonymous said...

******************Book Stuff***************

Do you think T will be killed this season? I'm thinking maybe ep9 and ep8 for the RV vs TM. Wow, so much changing this season!!


Mike V. said...


@Richard - Absolutely, that has to happen this season. They already started setting it up with the Shae comments this past episode and even T speaking about is legacy in the premiere.

There are a lot of shocking moments this season. Don't forget everything at the VALE too.

btw... EW finally has an article for BOOK READERS who watch the show! Great discussion going on there (which I also have dropped my comments in lol)

TV SHOW folks do not go to that link!

Anonymous said...

Book Stuff*************************************************

Yea, there's a lot at the Vale. LF and S will make it there soon I suspect. AS and my favorite are also on their way. It will be interesting if my favorite non major character(TH) will make it to the Vale on the TV version. I don't think he will though.


Mike V. said...

******BOOK STUFF SPOILERS**********

The biggest thing I'm thinking at the vale will happen at the end of the season. It involves the moon door. lol

I'm guessing you're right about TH. They probably won't make it there. I could see how they'd want S and A to meet up and have a scene together even if it's brief, but that would be too much a delination from the books I think. Basically, these Stark characters split up from day 1 and never reunite (besides Cat and Robb)....Even Bran and Jon missed each other at the wall, just barely. lol I mean, hopefully some of them will reunite by the end but we'll see!

Anonymous said...

******************Book Stuff Spoilers**********************

I watched and watched and watched. S did not have a bobble taken from her necklace, nor anything from hair I could see. I did recognize the necklace btw. Maybe I should check for M, she last held the cup before T. But the cup could have moved from that point, prior to T picking up, so O could have moved it.

Yea, the moon door strikes again and opens things up some more--double entendre. So many die this season.

Yea, they didn't knock TH off per the book for a reason, we'll see. I would like to see S and A see each other, but I don't see it happening either. Stark's may only meet up at the end with whomever is left.

BTW, the guy who doesn't visit the privy--I recalled some things about him yesterday. So many great things for next year too. I don't think he'll replace TH for me though. I'm not sure who could do that yet.

I also like the older T, oh well.


Mike V. said...

********BOOK STUFF SPOILERS!!! ***************

Been meaning to write back to this and forgot this morning! lol You may need to go back and watch one more time, they certainly showed O grace her hair and then actually touch the necklace, even make a grabbing motion. It cuts away really quickly though, and the next time you see S...look at the far right of the of them is missing.

The cup was never clearly in front of O...but it was in that general vicinity. And the camera was panned away from that area enough that it could have happened off camera while most people were focused on the King. I don't think they'd want to make it that obvious on a rewatch who did it. But, the clues are definitely there for rewatchers AFTER they know what to look for.

I think the reason TH didn't get injured in the Tavern fight because they want to explore Arya/The Hound's chemistry/road trip more this season. If they have something that's working, they want to keep writing towards that. We saw that with Arya/Tywin 2 seasons ago (not in the books) and Jaime/Brienne last year (in the books). I still think they'll course correct before the end of the season. Maybe it'll even be at the hands of A.....she wasn't the cause in the books, but she did stick to her code and leave him for dead.

The guy who DOESN'T visit the privy? lol That sounds like code for something that I'm not picking up on. Maybe you're talking about JL's future storylines which are pretty decent in books 4/5.

But yeah...things on the show certainly will be different come season 4 just as they are in the books. We'll feel the aftermath! I enjoyed books 4 and 5...but I think the show has a chance to condense a lot of that story and make it shine more. Especially telling the 4/5 stories in parallel. I can't believe we're already talking about covering that plot NEXT YEAR! Come on George, hurry up and finish book 6! I'm secretly hoping he's already writing book 7 too as he's wrapping up 6. I know that's not realistic, but he has given up on giving timelines to people because he never meets them. So, there's always the chance that he's actually AHEAD of schedule. A minor chance...but a chance. lol

Anonymous said...

Book Spoilers*******************************************************************************************************

Yea, I saw O w/ S playing with hair and necklace. But I rewound several times and never saw a missing jewel off of the necklace, even up to the point where she was leaving. Just rewound for the 5th time and yes, I saw it, not on neck, but collar--those sneaky producers--lol. You need to post a screen shot at some point--lol.


Mike V. said...

Okay, fair enough. Once it's revealed on the show I'll try to remember to post a screenshot!

Mike V. said...

Game of thrones meets frozen. Pretty funny lol