Sunday, April 14, 2019

Game of Thrones: Season 8 Episode 1 - Winterfell

Hello friends and we’re back!  One. Last. Time!  Game of Thrones has returned for the final 6 blockbuster episodes.  I loved every minute of this return to Westeros (except maybe a really cheesy pickup line from the Southern Queen) and figured this would be a table setting episode with a few reunions and pivotal moments.  I was not let down!  This final season has been so shrouded in secrecy that the DVRs and HBO Now still have not mentioned what the name of this episode is (Edit: finally updated). So, it should be fun to title these recaps for the next 5 weeks.  I expect us to have some in-depth conversations in the comments as usual, but I will get some thoughts out before we dive into that.  Let’s not waste anymore time.  Let’s dive in! 

Discussion Points

I think we’re way past worrying about Book Spoilers at this point so no need for my prior disclaimers.  We are purely in David Beniof and D.B. Weiss’s vision of how this Song of Ice and Fire ends.  They even mentioned in interviews that they’re not planning on distinguishing between what they know is George R.R. Martin’s plans for the books vs. what they wrote so that there still can be some surprises when/if George gets to concluding the saga himself.  

We opened up with a new Opening Credits sequence.  Winter is Here y’all and the map of Westeros is covered in snow!  We were also shown that there’s really only 2 places left on the map that matter at this point.  Winterfell and King’s Landing.  And we got some deep dives into both places.  The crypts of Winterfell got showcased which has been heavy in the theory/rumor department.  Could there be something important in those crypts other than the family secrets that were revealed in this episode?  We shall see.   King’s Landing got an in-depth look but ended on the Iron Throne.  Do we think someone will sit on it by the time this show ends?  In all the GoT pools I’ve done in the past few weeks I have consistently picked “no one” and that the Iron Throne will be destroyed.  I have my reasons and I’m 5% sure I’m right.  We’ll know in 5 weeks! 

King’s Landing / Blackwater Bay
No one under 3 feet tall was there to tell Cersei that Plots and Schemes are the same thing so she went ahead and was doing a bit of both!  Euron was looking to relieve some tension (successfully so I might add).  And while he was busy getting busy, Theon staged the fastest rescue effort in TV history!  Considering how much Thrones has slowed things back down in comparison to last season, they definitely “yada yada yada’d” the least interesting story still in progress.  
  • The Golden Company has arrived with Captain Strickland.  20,000 men (minus those that died because of cheating at the games enroute), 2,000 horses and NO elephants.  Man, Cersei was really upset those giant beasts couldn’t make the journey from Essos.  As far as we can tell, Dario didn’t sneak his way from the Second Sons into the Golden Company.  But 20,000 men is quite a few. 
  • Euron confirmed that his crew is a bunch of tongueless mutes and that he keeps Yara alive to talk to her.  And then he went to plead with Cersei for some action.  She actually didn’t put up much of a fight.  But, she also dismissed him pretty quickly.  We should note that she was drinking wine and Euron promised to impregnate her.  So, odds are she is not pregnant. Not that we believed her. 
  • Bronn and his lady friends confirmed to us that Ed Sheeran got badly burned by the dragons in the Loot Train Battle (still an awful name).   I don’t remember many other Gingers worth calling out from the Lannister army.  That was probably a nod to people being off put by him being in an episode at all.  
  • Qyburn gave Bronn a mission to kill both Lannister brothers on Cersei’s orders using the crossbow that Tyrion killed Tywin with.  I’m going to say right now there’s no way Bronn will honor that request for the gold.  He’s a lot of talk when it comes to money but he likes those Lannister bros.  But, what will come out of this?  Will one of them be the one to take Cersei down?  Does anyone still have bets on Arya?  (With the face of a Lannister brother? They’d have to be dead for that to happen).  So many options.  But Jaime personally doing it seems to be the most satisfying way to get it done. 
  • Theon rescued Yara with a few bow and arrows.  I’m sure there was a lot of effort off screen that we didn’t see.  But I did like the head butt from Yara followed by the offering of her hand. 
  • Yara’s plan is to take back Pyke (Iron Islands) so that Dany has a place to retreat if they can’t take on the dead.  The dead cannot make it to the Islands.  A solid plan.  Theon offered to go with her, but was given leave to fight for the Starks.  After all he has done he feels he owes this debt.  Let’s not fool ourselves.  Theon will probably die in this fight, but it might be the best and only attempt at redeeming his character after what he’s done.  Sure, he’s on the right path to redemption, but he did some pretty inexcusable things.  And we had to suffer through a lot of things with him since then!  Give him an honorable ending. 

Anyone that’s been reading my recaps for awhile knows that I love some good mirroring.  And in final seasons, I love callbacks to season 1!  This premiere had tons of it.  Jon and Dany arrive with the Unsullied, Dothraki and 2 dragons to Winterfell.  Tensions are high! 
  • I loved the opening shots of the armies coming in.  The boy climbing to get a good look was similar to Arya and Bran looking for ways to see King Robert arrive to Winterfell in the pilot.   I loved Arya’s reactions to seeing Jon, The Hound and Gendry come in.  And she got her reunions with all of them in this episode.    In fact I think the best way to go through the reunions is to rank them. 
  • Arya/Jon - So great.  Heartwarming reunion in the godswood.  Crazy to think these 2 characters haven’t interacted since the 2nd episode of the series.  It was the episode when he gave her Needle.  
  • Jon/Bran - Awkward as every other reunion with Bran, but still great! 
  • Sansa/Tyrion - Loved Sansa citing that there were some good moments to Joffrey’s wedding.  But even better that she pretty much slammed Tyrion on his cleverness.  She can see through Cersei’s lies better than him at this point.  There’s no Lannister army coming.  
  • Arya and Gendry/Hound - We got a Lady Stark and a M’Lady just like he called her back in season 2.   Gendry was forging some good weapons made of dragonglass for the war.  Made The Hound a solid axe.  Arya asked for him to make some crazy weapon.  What was it?  Guess we’ll find out.  There seemed to be some flirtation there.  Will they go there?  I shipped those 2 in the books, so I’d be happy to see it.  Arya’s reunion with The Hound was very fitting.  You know through his insults he respects her and her vice verse.  
  • Stepping away from reunions for a bit, I mentioned tensions were high.  The north was not very welcoming to Queen Dany.  And they were clearly upset with Jon for bending the knee.  Sansa is struggling to get on board with it as well.  Dany even made a threat to Jon about Sansa if she can’t get on board.  We’ll see how serious she is.  Then you throw in Sam finding out how his father and brother were executed and he may not be supporting the Queen either. 
  • On the other hand you have Tyrion, Davos and Varys discussing how possibly a dual rulership may be a way to unite the lands and get the North in line.  The North is loyal to Starks and Jon. The Wildlings are loyal to Jon.  So, maybe there’s something to that.  And of course, if there’s a little Targaryen brewing that may solidify things.   It was heartbreaking to see Sam react to his family’s executions.  And then he had to come out to crazy Bran telling him that he needs to be the one to break the news to Jon. 
  • It was very fitting for this moment to be in the crypts of Winterfell.  The reunion itself was great, but Sam telling him about Dany’s True nature (and the fact that she lied by omission to Jon about it) and just breaking the news that he is Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark’s child and true born heir to the 7 Kingdoms.  Aegon Targaryen the 6th of his name.  Jon was angry at first at the thought of Ned Stark, the most honorable man, lying to him his whole life.  The funny thing is, this reveal actually does make him the most honorable man in Westeros.  He lied to protect Jon and as a promise to Lyanna.  But he never fathered a bastard.  Jon is going to need to do some processing of this information.  But how will Dany process it?  Time will tell. 
  • It should’ve been clear by the fact that Jon could ride Rhaegal (his father’s namesake in dragon form) that he was a Targaryen, but as David Beniof says, “Jon is a little slow on the uptake”.  It was hilarious to see him struggle to ride the dragon but equally awesome to see it happen.  If only it didn’t have to be ruined by Dany’s “warm me up” pick up line.  What was that?   Granted, the dragons waiting with baited breath to see them get busy was fantastic.  

The North (House Umber)
  • We catch up with Beric and Tormund as they make their way down from the wall to Winterfell.  They ran into Dolores Edd (which man that was some intense misdirection!).  Jon had sent for the Night’s Watch to come to Winterfell as they will hold the North from there at this point.  (In case you forgot, The Night King blasted through the wall with Viserion and Bran creepily told Dany about it when she showed up at Winterfell) 
  • We find out that the Dead have already made it past House Umber and they killed little Ned Umber and left one of their infamous designs as a warning.  Edd brought horses from Castle Black and they will double up to try and pass the army of the dead before they get to Winterfell.  
  • Good thing they had Beric there with his flaming sword to take out the reanimated Umber.  That was some creepy stuff!  
The Final Reunion

And of course, there was one more reunion that was cut short by the end credits.  If anyone recalls the final moments of the pilot episode it involved Cersei requesting Jaime to kill Brandon Stark because he witnessed their indiscretion.  He complied by pushing Bran out the window.  Jaime now arrives to Winterfell to help defend humanity against the coming storm.  The first person he encountered is the crippled boy that started everyone on this journey.  We’ll have to wait until next week to see what happens.  

My guess is Bran will already know what Jaime has been through and is not going to show any emotion whatsoever.  But, this could be a chance for a redemptive moment for Jaime.  Lots of stuff still to happen before this show is wrapped and I’m here for it all!  But, we need to savor these 6 recaps as this could be the last time we have a chance to all discuss an event like this together.  These moments have been rare and will only become rarer with less people watching the same television shows at the same time.  So let’s do this!  Onward to the comments!  I hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I’ll see you next week.


Mike V. said...

Doing my usual post viewing online read. Didn’t get a chance to do before writing this up. I totally didn’t make the connection that when bran said he was waiting for an old friend that he was waiting for Jaime. Good stuff!

Mike V. said...

Rewatched this morning and realized a few more things.

Opening credits look to be showing the path of the white walkers as they passed the last hearth. Makes me wonder if we’ll see the path of ice further in ep 2.

Crypt - more symbolic gestures. Ned’s last time talking to Jon he said “the next time we see each other we’ll speak of your mother.” Now we don’t know if Jon visited the crypt since he’s been back to winterfell in season 6. But this is the first we’re seeing it. And as he’s staring down ned’s Statue Sam stumbled in. Great stuff. Also noticed as they were speaking of the promise Ned made to Lyanna you can make out her statue in the background as the news sweeps over Jon’s face. Great stuff!

Mike V. said...

And I forgot to mention the blue eyes exchange between Edd and Tormund! So good.

Okay I won’t comment again until someone else does! Lol (no promises :))

MJ said...

Yeah - I think Dany breaks the throne rather then the wheel. I think the future will be a 'rule by committee' type of thing - like a senate.

LOL on Cersei wanting those elephants. No idea where that even came from ! Really not sure if I believed her when she said she was preggers - I go back and forth on that. But yeah - not pregnant now apparently.

Bronn will definitely NOT kill the Lanister bros. No way. I still believe Arya might kill Cersei. Jamie killing her will be a painful thing for him - so I don't want him to do it.

Really ? Since the second episode? I had not realized it was that long ago that Jon and Arya shared screen time. I really had not realized how much info these character did not have - like Sam only now finding out about his dad and brother.

I was glad that they got right to Jon's parentage and did not drag it out longer.

Um - no - I did not get that the 'old friend' was Jamie either.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the recap. Yes, saw your post last week about there being few shows that bring together many differing people. Hopefully another one soon!

1. Let's be honest, Cersei's not going to make it. It was interesting, the look she had when the Greyjoy said he would give her a prince.
2. OH yea! The eyelock between Bran and Jaime was great, particulary how Jaime recognized Bran from S1E1!
3. There were many nuggets of tie-ins from earlier episodes.
4. I'm a little surprised Dany hasn't picked up on something about the dragons liking Jon. Jon's lack of riding skills was so comical it became a distraction. It's supposed to be in his blood.
5. I liked the way they built the tension about Sam's family being killed particularly after the opening had a flashback to Tyrion telling Dany it was a mistake. No matter the threat from the North this show always keeps the Game of Thrones at the center. And Jon being the rightful heir is the new way of doing it.
6. OK, so I'm betting that Jon continues to just not want the throne/crown. And keeps the info on him quiet. UNDER the guise that he doesn't want to disrupt the unity of the people of the North. IE, him being a Targaryan would make it hard to keep the banners united. And yes, while I think that will happen I think it's dumb too. In reality the banners will unite regardless of his parentage when the Night King arrives! And I think the Night King is close to WF.
7. Was I the only one that saw the Sansa/Tyrion meeting as a prelude to our future leaders after the defeat of the Night King! Particularly liked the way she called him on his sister. And this betrayal will be confirmed by Jaime.
8. There will be many who want Jaime dead but Bran will not.
9. Yes, the Arya/Gendry connection seems to make sense and would be satisfying.
10. Jaime and Bronn will be killed fighting WITH each other. I will miss them both mightily.
11. So, Brienne is in KL I suppose. Maybe she sent a raven to Sansa and that's how Sansa knew Cersei isn't sending an army? Anybody like Brienne to kill Cersei? I would prefer Arya however.
12. I thought each of these last episodes were supposed to be longer--like movie length?
13 Re the Game of Thrones/Iron Throne as the subject. I still don't see Dany nor Jon making it. But their daughter will make it being raised by Tyrion and Sansa. Possible Tyrion too will be found out to be a Targaryan.


Anonymous said...

OK, some more thoughts.
1. Why did the Night King leave the umber boy nailed to the wall with that symbol? Did he know it would be seen by whom it was seen?
2. What do these symbols mean anyway? Is it really just one? Like a spinning octopus, hurricane, tornado,etc.
3. Is Dany's penchant for killing going to be a source of friction with Jon? We know some friction is coming between them re Sansa.
4. When will we find out Dany's pregnant--earlier or later in the final season?


Mike V. said...

@MJ - Yeah when I say break the wheel...I mean exactly that. Different government. If things don't change then what's the point of the show?

I figure the elephant thing is a nod to Lord of the Rings. That may be because it's fresh on my mind. But I know they're comparing the length of the battle to come to Helm's Deep (i.e. longer than Helm's) it's that that much of a reach! lol my death pools I have Arya killing Cersei disguised as Jaime (which means he'd have to die). I don't know....Jaime may be at his wit's end with Cersei. If he finds out she's been with Euron now? Well....if it's anything like the book when Tyrion revealed everyone she'd been sleeping with....He lost his marbles. (okay, I was wrong...maybe there are more book things to discuss lol)

Yep...Jon and Arya (and most of the Starks) had not seen each other since the first 2 episodes of the series. They had to do so much in those episodes to establish the bonds between everyone. And of course, they could still establish them in their solo scenes when they'd react to news. But's a big thing in the books. There's some close calls but once the Starks were separated they never run into each other again. (we're still waiting for them to come back together) Jon was up North forever and Arya was in King's Landing....headed to Harrenhal…got to the red wedding only to have her brother and mother slain before she could get to them. Then she eventually headed to Braavos and came back to Winterfell just as Jon headed down to Dragonstone. Crazy right?

agreed on parentage. I figured it would be near the end of ep 1. Of course, I thought it might be the final scene but ending on Jaime/Bran? Great stuff.

Richard I'll do yours in a separate post!

Anonymous said...

Love this comic. And yes, I'm kind of like Jason-pulling for the Night King.

Mike V. said...

@Richard - I hope so too. Maybe the next Westeros series can bring people together but I doubt it. The spinoffs rarely pick up the same audience with the same intensity. Of course, if they ever reboot LOST you know I'll return back to my other blog to talk about it (maybe not in the same level of detail...but I wouldn't be able to resist!). Still think I may rewatch it this summer. It's been 5 years for me.

Okay first set of numbers:

1. Cersei's death is 99.87% guaranteed. The prince comment definitely was interesting.
2. Indeed! Bran actually looked piiiiisssssed. lol But, he doesn't get mad now. So I'm sure like I mentioned it's going to be more like it was an inevitability and set the course of events in motion. And it'll be more on Jaime to react. Will he apologize??
3. Definitely.
4. This came up at work today too. If only Targs can ride dragons why didn't she notice? I'm going with she's too smitten with her dragons approving of her boyfriend. lol And D&D definitely said Jon is slow on the uptake which is why he didn't know.
5. Agreed...they definitely are going out of their way to say the battle of with the dead is not the end of the show. This show is called Game of Thrones, so that will take front and center by the end. Makes sense. Not sure that'll be the focus of the books...but who knows?
6. I agree he will be reluctant to want the crown. Agree he may keep it to himself, but Sam's words will haunt him. He'll start questioning Dany's decisions. especially when she almost threatened Sansa. And Arya talking about how she's looking out for her family and for Jon to remember he's their family too. It's all related. (pun intended?)
7. I definitely think Sansa and Tyrion survive Game of Thrones. I also think they will be in positions of power. Will they be the actual leader? Maybe?? So did occur to me. lol
8. Yep, agreed. I covered this in a response above. :)
9. I don't ship a lot of things, but I ship Arya/Gendry! (and that was a lie. I'm a sucker for a will they/won't they storyline lol)
10. No.....stop! I don't want this to happen! lol Yeah there's definitely going to be things that happen that are going to be tough to watch. I just can't see Bronn turning on the Lannister bros for money. He talks about it too much but when it counts he saves them.
11. Brienne was in Winterfell. I didn't think she was there but there was a cut to her in the hall when Jon, Dany, Sansa and Tyrion were holding court. I read a theory by someone that actually sounded plausible. Somehow Cersei kills Brienne which drives Jaime to kill Cersei. eh????
12. They confirmed the lengths a few weeks back. I know the final 2 are like an hour 20 each. The first couple are regular length. It's been basically hinted what's happening in ep 3 (and considering the trajectory of the dead it makes sense) so surely it's going to be longer. I'll look up the episode lengths later if I remember.
13. Yep...the child. That's one of my thoughts as well. We've discussed this at length before! lol I think the books may indeed make Tyrion a secret targ as well. I just can't see them doing that in the show. Maybe they will but they haven't laid down enough track. Just him talking to the dragons in season 6.

Will post again for next numbers.

MJ said...

Interesting article about that spiral in the show. Ha - I also thought of LOTR with the elephants.

I def can see Jon reasoning that the people of the North won't like that he's a Targaryn. They are behind him because he is a Stark. And no - he doesn't want the throne - kinda like Aragon not wanting to be King.

Mike V. said...

LOL on the comic!

1. As Mance once said "always the artists" about the White Walkers/Night King. Why did he leave the boy? I dunno. Some think there is significance in the design itself. I always thought their designs were similar and just their call sign like "The Wet Bandits" (i'm not even naming the reference. people should know!)

2. Kinda got into my thoughts above. lol I don't know if the symbols mean anything. If they do I have no idea.

3. As mentioned above I do think Jon will start considering Dany's decision making as they move forward. Friction definitely coming. But I don't know if it will be permanent friction. The 2 of them together make each other better. That was kind of the suggestion from Davos/Tyrion. The pairing may be better than them separate. But, that doesn't mean that's who will be standing in the end.

4. This one I don't know. If this child is to be the eventual ruler then there needs to be a time jump at some point. That could certainly happen in the final episode. Of course, there would need to be a time jump for Dany to have the child before meeting her end too. So when will she find out? Maybe right before a certain battle? Could add a little more weight to that conflict as well. (not that it needs any more. But they did add a pregnant woman to the Red Wedding that the books didn't have and that certainly raised the stakes lol)

Mike V. said...

MJ - yes but Jon is also a Stark! He's both! It could go a long way of uniting the 2 houses. But initially? I agree they won't like it.

Man this is like the LOST days (on a small scale) I post comments there's more comments! :)

Thanks for the link! I definitely remember the designs being inherited from the children of the forest. Whether it means anything? we'll see.

I do agree that we need some kind of background on the Night King's motives. Surely that's coming.

Anonymous said...

Tyrion--there has been a lot of track laid about his questionable heritage. Particularly by Tywin and Cersei. I'm thinking that has been done for a reason outside of the obvious disappointment he was to Tywin.

Sansa sent Brienne to KL the prior ep and I didn't see her at WF. So, I thought she was still there.

We will see some fighting in the next ep but I think more set up for a big battle. I'm thinking there could be 2 eps with big battles. Cersei's mercenaries will need to be in one of them.

It would be hard to take for Jaime to survive the battle with the Night King only to be killed by battling his sister's mercenary army.

BTW, the end of the ep reminded me of Jaime's redemption arc and how it could be coming to completion soon.


Anonymous said...

MJ, thanks for the link. CoF making the Night King I recalled. But, I forgot about the stones around the tree.

Here's another link on it

Mike V. said...

Isn't that the same link? lol Good times.

Tyrion - Only thing I can recall is when Tywin said, "Since I can't prove you're not mine...." They didn't go in depth about the Mad King's love/lust for Tyrion's mother like in the books.

Yes she sent Brienne to King's Landing but everyone left. Jaime left too. I didn't see Brienne in WF until I rewatched. She's definitely there.

Yeah...there's definitely one long battle (in Winterfell). They talked about it in the Entertainment Weekly spread. But yeah you don't assemble 20,000 troops and the Lannister army and the Iron Fleet in King's Landing and not expect a 2nd battle. That would be a bit of a letdown! (maybe)

Yes, I could see Jaime dying in any of the next 5 episodes. It can happen in the Winterfell battle or it could happen back in King's Landing. But no...if he makes it out of Winterfell...then I don't think he'll die fighting the golden company. It would be after facing Cersei one last time. But Jaime dying in some sort of sacrificial way would make the most sense for his character. Same with Theon.

Let's not forget that Clegane Bowl is bound to happen too!

Anonymous said...

Clegane bowl, forgot about that one, yea will be good.
Oh, it is the same link, sorry.

On Tyrion Targaryan

Just one source:


Mike V. said...

Yeah...I totally agree it's in play in the books. On the show? I just don't know if they'll do it. The dragon has 3 heads is also a famous quote often referenced. We were trying to figure out who the 3rd dragon rider would be. But then the show went and killed one of the dragons. lol But, I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be literally 3 riders but just 3 targaryens.

BTW...Not sure if anyone watched the 60 minutes. I fell asleep watching late but have it recorded. GRRM was interviewed and I just read an article on IGN (can't link from work because it's blocked lol I'll link from my phone in a minute) He basically said they had like a 3 day meeting to break it all down. He thinks the show ending won't be far off from the book ending...just more with the secondary characters things could be drastically different. I'm surprised he went that far in explaining.

Stay tuned for link.

Mike V. said...

Anonymous said...

Well, he's consistetly said that.


MJ said...

Episode 2 teaser

Mike V. said...

D&D went out of their way to say that they're not going to distinguish between what is them and what is GRRM's plans for the end to preserve the book reading experience. George is saying "well it's not going to be far off" lol That's all I was saying.

Thanks for link to the teaser, MJ@ I'm guessing it's whatever I watched after the episode. Looks intense!

Anonymous said...


How long do we have. Until the sun comes up tomorrow, yea

Mike V. said...

Found a screenshot on Facebook of runtimes.

Ep1 - 54 minutes
Ep 2 - 58 minutes
Ep 3 - 82 minutes (extended 22 minutes)
Ep4 - 78 minutes
Ep 5 - 80
Ep 6 1 80

So you could say the shortest is behind us lol

Anonymous said...

Thanks, that also reinforces ep 3 for you know what.

I still think there will be more than one.


Mike V. said...

Oh yeah it's all but guaranteed that it's 3. And there is no doubt that there will be some other big event. It just begs the question if it will still involve the dead or not lol

Anonymous said...

Still want to know what the Night King's objective is. And if the spinning arms relates somehow?

Yea, the Golden Company will end up figthing at some point. Question is, will it be the Night King.


Mike V. said...

I guess it was all basically laid out last season. If the war in the north ends (I doubt it'll be that clean) then Dany was going to resume her fight against Cersei for the 7 kingdoms. Now of course it depends when the Jon news is publicized whether that will add a wrinkle to things. Also, if Cersei pulls any stunts before their march South that would reignite a need for vengeance. (i.e. with the Starks)

We also need to see if Dany's vision of a scorched Red Keep (from season 2 House of the Undying) will come to fruition. Will that be due to the Night King invading or Dany? Or was it meant to be symbolic like a lot of that chapter was in the books?

But yeah those 20,000 soliders (minus elephants) are not just going to be there for show!

Anonymous said...

I'm really wondering about the motivation of the Night King.

Revenge for being waken from dead, just kill everyone and everything,etc?

Mike V. said...

****************SPECULATION WARNNING*******I don't really think the below is spoiler territory. It might be insight from the books (I can't remember if it was actually spoken of in the books). But I'll put the warning here in any case. It definitely is some theories that are at play ********WARNING************************

I really hope the whole theory around Bran and the Night King is not true. I'm sure if they did pull it off it would blow my mind. But just hearing of the idea sounds a little too Sci-Fi for Thrones. But...there is precedent with there being meddling with Time with the 3 eyed raven so who knows? We saw a white walker be created by the Children of the Forest. I assumed it was the night king. But I guess it doesn't necessarily have to be.

Beyond the motivation of the Night King, there is the question for why hasn't he attempted to kill Jon when he's had multiple opportunities? is it purely for writing convenience?

There are theories of a Great Other....and theories of why they have spent so much time in the crypts of winterfell in the promos (and now that it has been featured in the opening titles) We know George is very literal with his naming of stuff the fact that Winterfell is called that could be very literal too. (i.e. the place where winter originally fell. i.e. maybe the Great Other is in the crypts of Winterfell and is a Stark) There's also a theory that Lyanna may be buried with Rhaegar's harp that may be a potential weapon to use against the dead. Why? No clue. lol

But this all sounds like fan theory stuff (which explains why I heard it on a lot of podcasts and read some of it on reddit threads).

Sometimes there is just a threat that needs to be dealt with. They are a result of the Children of the Forest trying to fight the First Men and they turned on their creators. That might be the only origin story we need.

But, we'll find out over the next few weeks if any of this is the case!

Anonymous said...

Yes, I forgot about the 3 eyed raven and the Night King stuff!

I've also heard of a "sacrifice" of a certain type needing to be made to kill the Night King.

Great observation on tying in the crypt and Margin.

So, any bets on the Night King besting Winterfell and going South?

I was at over 50% he would since the cave drawings were found further South.

But, your observation re Winterfell makes me wonder.


Mike V. said...

Can’t respond fully right now but I also suspected the night king may fly past winterfell while the army matches there. So Cersei May have no choice but to deal with the white walkers. May also draw the north south to help out.

Sacrifice would make sense as surely someone is going to have to die in that manner. I’ll respond more later!

Anonymous said...

3Eyeed Raven/Night King theories

This would be interesting to happen

Mike V. said...

I'm afraid to read too much of that because I'm afraid it might be true! lol Very compelling stuff. The problem with well thought out theories is they often lead to disappointment if you commit too much to them before seeing what the showrunners intended. (See: LOST lol) But yeah...I could see some variation of these things happen. There has to be some involvement of BRAN in his time jumping to things that have played out.

I'm seeing theories where it needs to be personal. So something Jon having to kill Bran to end Winter would be personal and difficult. And this seems more "Thronsian" than the hero slaying the enemeny and he and his true love ruling the land and everyone living happily ever after. lol There has to be some middle ground. Some twists coming our way.

The Cave drawings are a good point, but were they prophecies or just carvings from the original Long Night? or both? I do think it's too simple to just vanquish the dead in the one battle. Maybe they'll deliver a great blow to them. but if the Night King somehow gets south, he can create another army fairly easily. Maybe not as large as the one he's slowly been grooming over the series. But enough to make things interesting.

Hell maybe The Mountain kills the Night King some how? (doubt it, but that would be an interesting twist lol)

So many directions these episodes can go.

Mike V. said...


"something LIKE Jon having to kill Bran"

"Enemeny aka enemy" lol

MJ said...

Lord ! I can't keep up with all of this. LOL

Yeah - I never wondered who the Night King was - just why he was back and whether Bran would become him

But now everyone is saying these symbols are very much like the Targearyn sigil. The others that we have seen were definitely circular - but this last one was more like the sigil. So now everyone is talking about whether the Night King is a Targaeryn.

And yes - we saw drawings in the cave last season that looked like these symbols.

Mike V. said...

Yeah I saw a meme yesterday that showed that the circular symbol in the pilot looked almost like the "hand of the king" pin. (I think that's purely coincidental) but yes that the latest symbol looks like a Targ sigil. I really don't think that's where they're going with it. (That the night king is a Targaryen) But maybe??

Really, I have no idea what direction they'll take these final episodes. What the state of Westeros will be in the end. I anticipate twists and I anticipate not getting what I want. (i.e. the traditional ending) because what I really want is what I don't want! I want to be challenged and surprised. We'll see what they pull off!

Only certainty is the death of Cersei. lol But even becomes a question of who. It does seem like Jaime doing it would be the most poetic.....and speaking of that the crossbow has been reintroduced maybe that's how it will go down. But Jaime would need to be motivated....and I think hurting Brienne may be the way to do that.

Here I go off into theory/speculation land again! lol The death of Cercei is the only certainty! That and Mellisandre/Varys because Mel predicted it. Surely they will close the loop on those couple of scenes. Varys has a role to play before he dies and Mel and Arya will meet again.

Anonymous said...

Oh yes, Melisandra! She will be back from Volantis (isn't it). What will she bring with her?

The Mountain killing the Night King, hmm. I like the idea of one "dead" guy killing another for sure.

Yea, Bran warging into the Night King has either happened already or will happen.

Targaryan Night King--well, it's possible since he was resurrected. I can't recall if the Targaryans were in the North that far back though. I didn't think they were even in Westeros that far back.


Mike V. said...

Did she say where she was going? I know she was going to Essos. You would think she is bringing something with her yes. Maybe stone men? lol Probably not. But would think she would be at the Battle of Winterfell. But maybe not if that isn't the true end of the threat.

Also, will someone fulfill the prophecy of TPTWP? Will Long Claw become lightbringer? Does it have to be plunged into someone's chest first? (isn't that part of the prophecy?)

Speaking of Bran warging. There was always the theory that Bran would warg with a dragon. (emphasized in the show and books by "you will not walk again, but you will fly") One thing I didn't consider, but now I heard on some podcast. What if he wargs with VISERION (the undead dragon)?? Apparently in the script for the S7 finale, they compared the NIght King waking Viserion to when he converted the baby to a white walker. So Viserion isn't just a WIGHT, he's a white walker dragon. lol Makes sense since he breathes (blue) fire and fire kills wights. What does this mean? I dunno. Some speculate that the weapon Arya is requesting to be created is something that could be used to kill a dragon. Bronn made a comment to his lady friends that he's the only man that has hurt a dragon. If Arya takes down Viserion that statement would remain true. (Kinda like the Witch king saying "no man can kill me" and Eowyn defeating him in ROTK)

All good speculation. Still have no idea if any of it will come to pass.

Question of the year - where the hell is GHOST? lol Damn CGI Dragon and Winterfell Budget lost us Elephants and Direwolves!

BTW - I know my wife was wondering and it's become a classic MEME on the internet. The elephants. WHy did Cersei bring it up? Was it for comedy? Well it was played for comedy. If you rewatch the season 7 finale apparently Cersei brought up that there would be 20,000 men and war elephants. So I'm sure this was course correcting for season 8 when they couldn't fit it in the budget. lol

TARG Night King - we'd have to read FIRE AND BLOOD (I have the audio book) to see when the Targaryens reached Westeros. Or possibly watch the spinoff show THE LONG NIGHT or whatever they're going to call it.

Anonymous said...

Viserion warg--That is something I've heard too, maybe here. Would be great.

Arya's weapon--would be strange for her thinking about killing the dragon though. Wouldn't it be crazy if Arya killed Viserion while Bronn was warging. Would that kill him.

I think the elephants were scrapped too.

Yea, the direwolves are painfully missing. They really are cutting a lot out.

Some are saying the new Targaryan baby will be TPTWP.


Mike V. said...

Death while warging - Well...I know the opposite is true. If your body dies while you're warging you live on in whatever you're warging into. That happened in the book and it also happened with that wildling warg who suspected Jon all of season 3. (Gareth from the British Office lol...the DWIGHT equivalent. He was also in Pirates of the Caribbean)

They always said that they could never get the Direwolf to look right with CGI so they limit how they use them.

Yeah...there is that idea with TPTWP. Really depends how much of a time jump there may be.

Anonymous said...

time jumps--I'm thinking there won't be much except maybe last ep where they are wrapping up. Of course as I write this it only took 1 ep to go from KL to WF, LOL.


Mike V. said...

I’m thinking the same. Last episode may show passing of time. And yes 1 episode but 2 years of offscreen time! Lol

Just a heads up to all. With Sunday being Easter it’s going to be a late night before I actually watch thrones. I still want to recap but we’ll see how things go! In any case it might be late!

MJ said...

Elephants - I think I read that they were in the books ? SO maybe that was there way of saying we're not going there.

As for poetic - nah - Arya killing Cercei will be poetic. I don't want Jamie to do it. It will kill his soul. But yes - she must DIE ! LOL

Mike V. said...

Elephants - yeah they might have been but I think it was budgetary too. They were definitely mentioned in season 7.

Cersei - yeah Arya was my first guess. We’ll see what happens! I like both options.

Anonymous said...

My first choice is Arya killing Cersei

My second choice is Tyrion

I'm actually not hoping for Jamie to kill the mother of his children. Just seems wrong. And Jaime was actually starting to get close to his children when all hell broke loose on them. I'm not saying it won't happen and I certainly get why some think it should.

BTW, do you think Euron will have competition for Cersei vs the new Captain from Essos? So many things that could be developed but I don't think there is time enough.


Mike V. said...

As Doc Brown might say “you’re not thinking 4th dimensionally!” When Cersei dies she may not be pregnant anymore (if she even is). Popular opinion seems to be that consuming alcohol in this fiction does not mean she’s not pregnant. And that Tyrion actually realized Cersei was pregnant when she held her stomach in the s7 finale. So getting with Euron might have been a strategic move to say that he is the father of Jaime’s child (since he’s abandoned her). But she may still not come to full term with child. I’m actually shocked you guys are so against Jaime being the one to do it. he has more of a right than anyone. He’s been used his whole life. There also was the whole story last year where Arya was going to kill Cersei, but then decided to go home to her family. That was like a key moment in her life. A key decision to make. Will they really just go back on that decision and imply that she was just delaying killing Cersei? I think Sansa has more of a connection to Cersei than Arya. Of course, that’s more motivation for Arya to kill her too. Yeah Tyrion is a good bet too. There’s that whole piece of the prophecy that wasn’t in the show but is in the books which makes me back Jaime and Tyrion for that final blow. We shall see! Just remember this isn’t “MORAL BUREAUCRACY” where things are honorable and only things that seem right happen. This is GAME OF THRONES! Lol

I do not think Harry Strickland (what an awful Game of Thrones name. Sounds more like a boy band member) will be a threat for Cersei’s love, but who knows? If she can talk him into going back for elephants maybe! LOL

Anonymous said...

Love the elphant idea re STrickland.

WEll, as you guys know I've always wanted Jamie and Cersei to live happily ever after. She got married off but didn't want to and well, he's paying penance for killing the Mad King. I thought they were deeply in love but we never saw that much on the show. I thought all of the stuff that went wrong drove her to drink and crazy. She was taught to be conniving by her father and had to earn his love.

Jaime killing Cersei would be a tragedy given the above and so it could happen. I think they both still care deeply for each other. It would also continue his "saving" of KL by killing crazy rulers. Because I think she could go totally looney once she starts loosing her war for the crown.