Monday, May 4, 2015

Game of Thrones: Season 5 Episode 4 - Sons of the Harpy

Hello fellow Game of Thrones fans.  What a crazy episode.  Some pretty significant changes from George R.R. Martin's Bible, but they also mixed in some REALLY IMPORTANT nuggets that book fans have been waiting for since season 1!  So, all in all, this was a fantastic episode of the show.  I'm really loving this season, as I do every year.  But, I think the consolidation of these 2 books is really liberating the writers to take some interesting chances.  They're paying off for the most part.  Maybe not everything but we'll get to that.  

Weekly Spoiler Warning - Yes, I've read the books but I'm very careful on what I reveal.  If the show covers plot covered in the books, I'll discuss it and the differences.  If it's pretty clear the show will NOT cover something from the books, I may discuss that as well.  In the comments section everyone is very careful to label SPOILERS/BOOK DISCUSSION before posting about future book topics.  This disclaimer probably won't be needed next season, but we'll see if GRRM gets that 6th book out!

In the meantime, let's dive in! Links

Opening Credits

  • If you overanalyze the opening credits, I'm sure most don't, you would've realized that we got to Winterfell and The Wall much more quickly than normal.  It was  good hint that we were going to hit the southernmost point of Westeros by the end.  We went from Westeros to Essos and then back to Westeros to catch a glimpse of Dorne at the end. Good stuff. 
  • As a side note, the fact that Lyanna Stark was mentioned from the pilot episode of Game of Thrones in the "previously on" should have made any book reader excited about content that might be in the episode! We'll get to that a couple times before the end. 

Journey to Meereen
Joran stole a boat, but felt bad about it and left the dude he knocked out some money.  He then proceeded to row Tyrion to the Queen.  It was meant to be ambiguous until Jorah told Tyrion, but most people assumed the Queen he referred to was Daenerys Targaryan.  

  • Loved watching Tyrion's mind at play in this scene.  From the clues around him he figured out pretty much all of Jorah Mormont's story up to this point in the show.  He spied for Robert Baratheon, Dany found out and banished him, he's going to attempt to use Tyrion as leverage.  Maybe she'll kill Tyrion and pardon him.  Tyrion mentioned it might go the other way. 
  • Tyrion also tried to convince Jorah they're on the same side.  For now Jorah isn't impressed and knocked the imp out!   
Enroute to Dorne
Gotta love a Game of Thrones road show with 2 entertaining actors!  Jaime and Bronn traveled by ship then by rowboat to get to Dorne.
  • Nice shout out to Brienne's homeland of Tarth as they were sailing.  Jaime appeared to miss his former traveling companion. 
  • Bronn expressed his doubts about the trip and disappointment that he won't get time to be with any of the women who are more than open down South.  (Just realized that could have multiple meanings, but I just meant the geographic location of Dorne.  But Cue Michael Scott's "That's what she said")
  • I loved his comments about Jaime not being able to fight so he'd have to pretty much do everything.  
  • Jaime mentioned that the ship was originally planned to go through Oldtown (or maybe it still was).   Regardless, it was a nice nod to a locale used in A Feast for Crows.  2 characters from the books that are still on the game board in Game of Thrones met by the end of that book in Oldtown.  It's looking like that storyline won't happen, but I had to at least mention it.  
  • Bronn also questioned Jaime about him going to save his "NIECE"?  The implication being that he knows the truth, just like the rest of Westeros.  
  • Jaime implies that it has to be him that saves Myrcella. Bronn, must've been a student of Tyrion's deduction skills, figures out that it's because Jaime let Tyrion out of his cell.   Jaime says it was Varys but also says he will split Tyrion in 2 if he ever sees him again.    
  • Once ashore Bronn still questions the mission thinking that the ship captain could let some key Dornish folk know that he was bringing Jaime Lannister to Dorne and the whole surprise rescue would be off.  
  • They spoke about how they want to die and how they don't care about the songs sung about them.  Jaime wants to die in the arms of the woman he loves.  (we assume Cersei)  Bronn questions if this is reciprocated by the other.  I would think less and less so!  Bronn stated he would like a boring death because he's had an exciting life.  
  • They come across 4 Dornish soldiers on horseback.  Jaime mentions he might be able to take 1 of them if he's slow.  Great comedy in this episode!  They go with the ol' "pretend surrender then surprise kill everyone" trick.  Bronn took care of most of them and then de-horsed someone and said he might be slow enough for Jaime.   Jaime struggled in the fight but then used his metal hand to his advantage.  The man's sword was stuck and Jaime stabbed him to death.  It wasn't clean, but it worked.  And Bronn said Jaime had a good teacher!  Hysterical, and accurate.  Doesn't have to be an honorable fight.  You just have to win. 
  • Jaime rewards Bronn with having to dig a grave or multiple graves to bury all of the bodies.  Jaime does not want to start a war.  
  • I can't say the same for Ellaria Sand.  She definitely wants a war with the Lannisters.  She came to the Sand Snakes (Oberyn's bastard daughters all with different bothers) with the news that Prince Doran will not be aiding their cause.  The sisters had captured the ship captain that brought Jaime and Bronn to Dorne (wow, just like Bronn suggested might happen!).  They buried everything except his head in the sand.   Even from the pictures I had seen of these Sand Snakes, I wasn't impressed.  I figured it might be better when we see them on the show.  Eh.   I wasn't too interested in it in the books, but I think the show may have dropped the ball in the casting department.  We'll see.   In any case, Ellaria recruited the 3 snakes to help her start a war.  They have to stop Jaime and Bronn before they rescue Myrcella.  Obara Sand killed the ship captain with a quick shot of a spear to his exposed head.  Okay, maybe that was cool, but I'm still on the fence about this storyline! 
Kings Landing
(EDITED AFTER POST - I'm not sure how I forgot to convert my notes into actual rational thought!  I'll blame the 1 year old daughter who was up all night!)

A small council meeting, more Sparrow stuff and more Cersei vs. Margaery.  Doesn't get much better!  Well, maybe less Sparrow stuff. 
  • At the small council session we learn that the Iron Bank of Braavos is asking for 1/10th of the crown's debt.  I'm sure this is partly due to Stannis reaching out to them last season.  Cersei has decided to rid herself of Tyrells this episode.  She is sending Mace Tyrell (patriarch) to the Iron Bank to speak on their behalf.  Not good news for Mace!  Though kiss-up that he is said he'd be honored to go.  The bigger thing I think that happened is that Cersei is sending Ser Meryn Trant with him.  If you recall, Arya's narrowed down kill list clearly brought up his name this season.  I predict that by the end of this season, ol' Trant will regret possibly killing Syrrio Forel back in season 1!  (For the record, this prediction is totally off book)
  • Pycelle made a comment that the small council keeps getting smaller.  Cersei acknowledged it's not small enough.  I'm sure that was a slam on Pycelle himself.  Good stuff! 
  • Cersei rewards herself with more wine and a discussion with the High Sparrow.  Long story short, she's arming the Sparrows to fight for their cause.  Why?  Because she has some more Tyrells on her list.   
  • First up -> Loras Tyrell.  The sparrows, including Lancel Lannister, are branding themselves and righting the wrongs of the city.  They attacked a brothel to bring some to justice and then went after Loras for his bedroom antics that he his proud to bring out in the open.  He has been captured which sets forth Margaery's quest for the upper hand again.  Let's pause to discuss book differences.  Cersei certainly does try to alienate Margaery from her allies/family in the books.  But she sends Loras to Dragonstone (former home of Targaryan's and where Stannis was calling home).  His whereabouts are questionable after that encounter.  So, this is a slight change. 
  • Margaery tries to get Tommen's ear, which she does.  But Tommen demands Cersei to release Loras and she denies having captured him (which she technically hasn't).  She sends Tommen to the High Sparrow.  The sparrows refuse the king access.  Poor Tommen is just a pawn.  And while these sparrows were disobeying their king, some random common folk was yelling at Tommen for being a bastard and an abomination.  OUCH!  I wonder how much Tommen has been shielded by the very true rumors of his parents. 
  • Anyway, Tommen goes back to Margaery empty handed, and she keeps her pants closed for the night and instead calls for Lady Olenna's help who is back in High Garden.  If she gets involved, this will be a change from the books, but a welcome on! 
The Wall/Castle Black
A few separate scenes up here focusing on Stannis or Jon.  
  • Stannis spoke with Selyse about Jon Snow.  She observed how much she admires the boy.  She apologized for not giving him a son and spoke lowly about their "deformity of a daughter" Shireen.  
  • Mellisandre showed up and mentioned how Shireen's blood is still Stannis's blood and how there is power in blood.  Lots of book readers have speculation of the role Shireen might be playing up at the Wall.  I forget if she was there in the books, but there was an additional character/plot device that is not present from the books and she may take that place.  That's all I can really say at this point.  
  • Stannis and Selyse had a touching scene too where he basically told her she is his daughter and he did everything he could to save her from Greyscale.  She was incredibly happy to hear this news and it was followed by the most awkward Father/Daughter hug in history.  At least Stannis finally hugged back after a few seconds too late. 
  • Stannis also had a discussion with Mellisandre about his failings at Blackwater and how he's planning to march on Winterfell before the snows hit.  She insisted not to leave her behind. 
  • Jon meanwhile was signing recruitment request letters to various lords of the North.  Many lords he had never heard of.  It seemed Sam was saving Roose Bolton, warden of the North, for last.  Jon did NOT want to send him any letters acknowledging he is warden of the North.  But Sam convinced him it was necessary.  They only have 50 men at the wall.  Jon reluctantly signed. 
  • Mellisandre then came to visit Jon.  She tried to convince him to come to Winterfell and liberate it from the Bolton's.  Jon spoke of his oath to not get involved in the conflicts of the 7 Kingdoms.  Mellisandre suggested there is only one war and it's the Living vs. the Dead.  Then she started trying to seduce Jon with her nakedness.  From her speech, it seemed like she was trying to create another shadow baby. She certainly has noticed something about Jon Snow that has her interested.  He is the bastard son of Ned Stark.  But, is that why she noticed something about him?  We can't get into it just yet but there are popular theories about Jon Snow and this episode now has given much more credence in the show to them.   
  • Regardless of what she was trying to do, Jon Snow refused and spoke of his oath and how he still loves Ygritte even in death.  Something tell me this won't be the last time Mellisandre and Jon Snow have a "chat".  
We spent the entirety of our trip to Winterfell in the crypt! And it was pretty darn exciting.  We've been waiting 5 years for the information that was shared in this scene to be shared on the show.  I never expected it to be a discussion between Littlefinger and Sansa, but it worked great! 
  • Sansa lit a candle of her Aunt Lyanna Stark.  She mentioned that her father Ned Stark used to do it all of the time but never talked about her.  All he said was she was beautiful.
  • Littlefinger mentioned how he saw her once when he was a boy.  The infamous Tournament at Harrenhall was discussed.  This is the first time this tournament was brought up in the show.  Over the course of 5 books we got clues here and there about this tournament.  Basically, everything about King Robert Baratheon's war on the Mad King traces back to this tournament.   Everyone who was anyone was there.  The Mad King Aerys Targayan, Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon.  We were reminded that Lyanna Stark was promised in marriage to Robert Baratheon and he loved her very much.  He loved her so much that even in death, he could never love Cersei Lannister.  Rhaegar Targaryan was married to Elia Martell.  You may recognize the name as the woman who Oberyn accused The Mountain of raping, murdering and then killing her children during the siege on King's Landing.   I should remind everyone that Rheagar was Dany's older brother and both, along with Viserys were children of the Mad King Aerys Targaryan.  
  • The tournament whittled down to 2 final jousters.  It was Rhaegar vs. Ser Barristan Selmy (now able to be seen for a very short time in Meereen with Dany).  Rhaegar won the match.  As tradition the winner would crown the fairest lady at the tournament (or something like that).  He rode straight past his wife and gave Lyanna Stark a crown of winter roses.   Littlefinger then implied that Robert's war started that day and thousands and thousands died because Lyanna Stark was chosen.  Sansa retorted with a different version of the story where Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her.   
  • If you can judge from a look, Littlefinger does not think the events occurred as the popular tale implies.  I'm sure it was not by coincidence that Ser Barristan Selmy also spoke fondly of Rhaegar in this episode and even earlier this season.  He even mentioned Rhaegar as someone who hated killing.  He was a musician and would sometimes pose as a minstrel in King's Landing.  
  • It's tough to be spoilery here because it's only a very popular theory and not fact just yet.  I also wondered if the show would even go there because George R. R. Martin has not revealed it in the books yet either.  But, they certainly are laying the tracks.  At this point, I'd say about the same amount of information that was shared in the books has now been shared on the show, so I have no problem throwing this out there.  But I will give a warning that what I am about to discuss until the end of this bullet is a potentially HUGE BOOK AND TV SHOW REVEAL to come (and I'd say about 95% probable).   Let's just say Rhaegar didn't kidnap Lyanna and that they actually ran off together because they were in love.  What if Lyanna actually ended up having a child?  That child would be all sorts of important, wouldn't you say?  A bastard yes, but one that is part Stark, part Targaryan.  One that even the most honorable man would want to keep secret from his darling wife and everyone else alive.  Someone that even a red headed priestess might be interested in.  Well, it certainly is something to think about.  You might even want to considera little math problem R + L = J.  And hey, even a google might bring up more background on how to solve that problem.  
  • The rest of Sansa/Littlefinger's discussion occurred above ground.  Littlefinger has been summoned back to King's Landing.  He must return to not raise suspicion of Cersei.  He promises that it won't be for long.  Littlefinger mentions he's a betting man and puts his money on Stannis and his army overtaking Winterfell and making Sansa, the last known living Stark, Wardeness of the North.  Sansa, of course, had to ask what if that doesn't happen?  Well, he suggested that she makes Ramsay Snow hers.  I still find this hysterical that Littlefinger shows no awareness that Ramsay is a psycopath.  While his main goal is always the advancement of self, he did love Catelyn Stark unconditionally and appears to love her daughter as well.  He wouldn't knowingly pair her up with a nut job, at least in my personal opinion (and that of many book readers who are also commenting on the same thing).   Littlefinger shows confidence in Sansa, though.  While she fears Roose, as she should, he mentioned she has outmaneuvered the very best and she'll be strong without him there.  Let's not forget that Brienne and Pod won't be far behind as well.     
Dany and Ser Barristan have a chat about Rhaegar Targaryan until she heads to court.  Then the Sons of Harpy went on a little killing spree! 
  • We discussed Dany and Ser Barristan's chat a bit already.  Barristan's job while Rheagar sang in the streets was to make sure no one killed him.  Of course, he collected the money too.  They wanted to see how much he could make.  He also mentioned how he got drunk one time on the job.   Barristan seems like an honorable man and not one who would make up stories about a man.  From everything we hear, other than Robert Baratheon's mouth, Rhaegar seems like a stand-up dude.  Granted, he did overlook his wife at a tournament.   
  • Hizdar Zo Loraq begged Dany once again to open the fighting pits.  They traditionally opened every year on this day.  He said it was one thing that former slaves and former masters could agree on.  It's a start, not the solution.  Dany still was against the idea, but maybe the current Sons of Harpy raid will change her mind. 
  • What ensued was a battle between Unsullied and the Sons of Harpy.  Grey Worm was involved and even got stabbed.  His fate remains uncertain.  Ser Barristan Selmy heard the battle cries and headed to battle.  All we have heard over the years is how Ser Barristan Selmy is the greatest swordsman alive, even in his older age.  We finally got to see him in action.  I'm going to guess, in the end, he saved Grey Worm's life but at the cost of his own.  He took many soldiers down, but went down by the blade himself.  This is a VERY BIG change from the books. First of all, RIP Ser Barristan Selmy.   
  • Barristan actually just started getting centric chapters in A Dance With Dragons.  The actor, indicated in his interview, had actually read the books and was looking forward to this season.  Alas, the show needs to consolidate.  I can't say if Tyrion and Jorah make it to Meereen by the end of A Dance With Dragons yet, but imagine if Dany had the 2 of them, plus Grey Worm, plus Daario, plus Ser Barristan trying to give her advice.  It might be a little crowded, wouldn't you say?  I'm sure there's a method to their madness, this is just my theory.  They're speeding up this story and will go past where the books currently are.  Who knows?  Maybe this means Barristan will die early in book 6.  Maybe us book readers are getting spoiled now!  I think it's more about consolidating the story for television more than anything.  
Even with the shocking finish, I thought this was a great episode.  Certainly lots to discuss more openly now instead of in code.  I look forward to our weekly discussion.  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you next week! 


Anonymous said...

Posting before reading recap-lol Just some thoughts.

Cersei thinks she is being so smart sending Tyrell to Bravos while using the high sparrow to attack his family. Problem is, to me the high sparrow is like having a pet snake, fun to watch it eat the mice, but not so fun when it comes after you. Giving arms to the high sparrow's people isn't playing out too well for Tommen. Why didn't Tommen just tell his guard to bring the high sparrow before him. Why isn't Margery counseling Tommen better, she should know. I thought she was smarter than Cersei, but now I"m not so sure.

I love when they bring in the money stuff and Bravos.

Jamie with his one arm excuses I think will lead us to something where he can do better. At least I'm hoping so. Poor Bronn having to do all the work. Interesting parallel between them having to bury the dead guys and the sand snakes already buried the capt.

Jon still in love with Ygritte. To me given how that ended last season, it's hard to swallow. I can see him having feelings, but love???

I really liked the Rhaegar stories and Lyanna stories.

So, with those stories, particularly the one with Barristan to me it was like an ending when Barristan was killed. It was like the last of a generation has passed away. The Ned's, Roberts, Rhaegar's, Selmy's, all of that generation's rulers are gone now. Time for the new generation of rulers and Tommen just doesn't yet appear up to the task. To me, Stannis and Roose seem at least a half generation later then Rhaegar and Tywin.


Mike V. said...

Just realized I skipped the Kings Landing storyline. oops! I don't know what happened I had the Notes in there maybe it's still there and I forgot to edit it. I will check when I get to work and fix it if I have time :-)

Mike V. said...

I just looked Yep it's my notes in there. Now you can see my "shorthand" LOL I'll try to fix it later :-)

Mike V. said...

Sorry about that guys, my King's Landing comments are fixed now. :)

I also forgot in my Wall comments that Mellisandre says "You know nothing Jon Snow" to Jon...which is a direct and famous quote from Ygritte... so, was this just a play on words for the show? Or was she trying to tell Jon there is something to her "MAGIC" and "sight"???


Yeah...High Sparrow made a comment (and I forgot to mention it even after revising) that NO ONE IS EXEMPT from the gods' justice. The implication seemed to sort of imply present company as well. We all know Cersei's bedroom antics aren't in her favor if the High Sparrow is (probably is) aware.

Jaime's one armed excuses already led to something better which him using his metal hand as defense!

How would last season have lessened his love for Ygritte? She died in his loving arms!

Yep, Rhaegar/Lyanna story was awesome!! So awesome I forgot to write about King's Landing! lol

This story definitely seems geared at the children finishing what their parents started. (Starks, Lannisters, even Baratheons if Gendry ever shows up!, and Targaryans!)

Anonymous said...

OK, read the recap--thanks again and Hibberds.

LOL, Hibberd says Barristan stumbled into the fight--what a horrible statement. He ran to the fight. Hibberd has multiple days to prepare his recap and can't do any better than that. Your description MUCH better. Grey worm will be ok.

Yea, I'm thinking by getting rid of Barristan it opens up space and reason for JOrah to come back into Dany's fold. Baristan didn't like Jorah really or at least he didn't trust him. Now without Barristan, Dany will be looking for someone who she has a history with. So, this works well for Jorah.

I really don't know if Jamie meant Cersei about the woman who's arms he would like to die in. And he sure didn't respond when Bronn asked if she felt the same. But, who else could it be? I might ask after all she's put him through, HOW can it be.

I think we have all missed a major theme in thie ep though and that is love, the different types of love and the effects of that love.

Stannis and his daughter
Jon for Ygritte
Petyr /Catelyn and Sansa
Sand Snakes/Oberyn
Jorah/his queen

The first and last of course started a war. It seems Robert told Ned and the others that Rhaegar raped Lyana to rally the troops to his cause.


Mike V. said...

You'll be happy to know I only perused Hibberd's recap before coming up with mine. Haven't even read it fully yet. lol

The only person other than Cersei (that Jaime meant) that I could possibly think of would be Brienne. And they did reference Tarth in this episode. But, I think it certainly was meant to imply Cersei and imply the discord between the 2 siblings.

Yeah...I guess Love is always a theme in most stuff! lol But it certainly was brought up several times in this episode so good catch!

Yeah...I think that's the basis of THE "theory" that the show didn't shy away from. It was Robert who loved Lyanna and started a war because someone else loved her too. And he probably lied or exaggerated the truth (or just made it up because why else would Lyanna leave with Rhaegar??) to rally the troops to his cause. It's another recurring issue in the show with these arranged marriages. Rhaegar was arranged to marry Elia, Lyanna was arranged to marry Robert, though she probably did not love him. He was obsessed with her....and that's the irony. He started a war for her when she probably didn't want to be with him. And he did nothing but obsess over her even after she died which essentially caused Cersei to have children with her brother.

Very big reveal for the show, I think...and I wonder how many non-book readers will catch on. There have been several clues along the way. And it probably doesn't matter if they don't catch on because it'll eventually be revealed. Now that they went this far with it, I'm pretty certain they're planning on revealing it regardless of if George writes it in the book first.

Anonymous said...

"You know nothing, Jon Snow"--I"m just not sure and wondered the same thing about what was behind those words spoken by Melissandre. At first I thought perhaps that phrase was known to several in the Watch and she was using it to work on Jon's mind. That is, she found out about the phrase while living at there and decided to use it on him. I'm going to stick with that until I learn something more. She has said that there are tricks that she uses.

It really occured to me when Lancel's forehead was carved and so many were being killed/captured for sex crimes. He could literally bring down Cersei. How can she not be VERY concerned about that?

The Dorne stuff is so made up, I think book readers are lost at what will finally happen---along with everyone else. Jamie and Bronn's involvement is all made up. I'm wondering if this will be Jamie's last season??? I'm thinking Tommen will find out who his real Dad is? That scene with him being called a bastard really seemed to hurt him.

I didn't realize how upset Jamie is at Tyrion. I mean Tywin certainly wasn't happy with Jamie and when Tywin was realizing that those kids were Jamie and Cersei's he was getting upset.

The wall stuff is getting to be a little long in the tooth with Stannis there, he's got to start moving.

BTW, I really didn't see a lot happening in this ep, it was kind of boring compared to others. BUT, when it ended I was like, "it's over, already" since it flew by-lol.


Mike V. said...

Sometimes more happens than you think with just important words being exchanged. There were very important words mentioned in this episode!

Yeah, I don't know about the Dorne stuff. Love Jaime/Bronn together, but the storyline itself...we'll see if it gets better. Production seemed pretty cheap with everyone just meeting in random places with a couple tents outdoors. That castle in Spain though is beautiful. They need to use that setting more.

The episode was much shorter than the average episode of late, so that might be why you thought it was over quickly. I think it was less than 50 minutes and it started later than 9.

Cersei - she's not thinking straight. It's a good point in Lancel. She has the ammunition to put her down. But, Cersei thinks she has the high sparrow in her pocket. Maybe it's another reason she went to him directly and early. To get on his side. But his comment about no one being exempt..or whatever he said...definitely cause for concern!

Anonymous said...

************spoiler potential****************

I think your post about JS being resurrected from the fire next season will bring all these hints to fruition. I think he'll be burned due to wright issue but after he rises, it will be something Melissandre says possibly. To me the biggest clue was what Stannis said about JS being the bastard son of a bar maiden or something. Stannis said, that wasn't like Ned Stark. Stannis doesn't believe JS to be the son of a random afair for Ned--that's a key clue!!

JS/ygritte last season--they FOUGHT each other. He betrayed her. She shot him 3 times. That can't be true love. Certainly it's passion,lust, and a kind of erotic love but I don't call that kind of dysfunction true love. That's the kind of love that damages kids forever, causes divorce, battered women, etc. It can't be a lasting love. Hence, why one is dead.


Mike V. said...

The Stannis comment isn't spoilerish so I'll put that up here. I wasn't sure exactly what he said, so I didn't put it in the recap...but I had read that it also lent credence to "THE THEORY" Definitely did if that's what he said.


The whole resurrection idea...I just can't give myself credit in resolving the Jon Snow "death" so easily lol...but it certainly seems like a plausible thing that would be done!

It really depends on if these Prophecies are meant to come true. I guess the fact that Dany's visions in the Tower of the Undying are coming true, maybe the prophecies are true too. I always wonder about religion on these shows and if we're meant to think that one religion is true. On this show/ it really just the fact that magic has returned to the world?? I guess most times in Fantasy novels, prophecies are meant to be fulfilled.

Anonymous said...

From everything I have read about him, GRRM is NOT a religious man. I understand he thinks of religion as a crutch and tool. So, I am suspicious of anything real as it relates to GOT religion. Sometimes prohecies coming true are just good guesses and/or coincidence. For example, I have "prophecied" for years and years that this world will end and that it will be cataclysmic. SURPRISINGLY a LOT of people disagree with me. Until I explain to them the life cycle of the sun-lol.


The biggest problem with your JS prophecy and relating it to what happened to Dany is that JS will be dead entering the fire whereas Dany wasn't. I think we can be VERY confident that he will be burned since that's what they do with all people who have been killed. And I think Ollie(you heard it hear FIRST-lol) will be a key person who stabs JS.

It is also possible that Melissandre does that face glamoring/image substitution thing. So that the real JS is not killed. Then she could put him to a fire test at some point.

I still think there's a key in the 998th lord commander number and that JS needs a rebirth of some type to allow him to pursue the war as a T. That way he won't be violating his vows.

I just can't imagine there won't be 3 dragon riders, unless one or two of the dragons are killed.

And yet again, NO Connington/Aegon stuff so it looks less likely.


Mike V. said...

Right...supernova! We certainly need to keep exploring our outerplanetary inhabitable options if the human race is planning to survive in the long run. :)


Yeah, I agree on the "dead" thing. unless they go all princess bride on us and think he's dead when he's not "ALL DEAD" lol

I actually didn't hear OLLIE here first. :) It's a large prediction from book readers that Ollie is destined to be the one to stab Jon Snow. I thought I subtely mentioned it last week but I may have let it slide.

The other one is that Shireen will take the place of Mance's baby as a sacrifice in the show.

As for dragon riders...I still think Bran is going to warg with one of the dragons so it might not need a rider. lol

Back to Jon...there is a chance he survives the stabbing. One thing is for sure...his story isn't over in any outcome!

Anonymous said...


There's NO way they're going to sacrifice Shireen. Won't happen, huh, huh, no, no, no.

Not on TV.

Especially now that she's so likeable. Plus and most importantly, I like her character!

The greyscale thing I"m going to have to check on because I thought it was a dead end story, now I'm not so sure.

LOL on Ollie. I guess the world's to big to be first on almost anything anymore--lol.

Yea, I can see Bran warging. So, that would mean we have too many T's then--lol. If JS, Dany and Tyrion all become T's that is.


Mike V. said...


I didn't say they would succeed with sacrificing Shireen...but that might be the pseudo intent! Honestly, I forget what happens with Mance's baby...i.e. (really Gilly's baby)

You assume Targaryan's have to ride the dragons. I'm seeing more of an alliance of people with the same cause by the end fighting against the White Walkers...regardless of house.

If they're still standing, I see Jaime, Brienne, Stark kids, Tyrion, Dany all fighting for the same cause. Maybe even Stannis. I could be totally wrong in this. That's just how I've envisioned the trends moving.

Mike V. said...

TV vs. Books discussion

Anonymous said...

*******************book theories**************

Check this out on JS and a theory I've not heard before. I still need to reread to thoroughly grasp why JS could end up being with the White Walkers!!!

JS vs Danearys.


Mike V. said...


Wow...that's a crazy theory. I never really considered it that way of Dany bringing destruction (which totally makes sense) and the Walkers protecting the land. Jon being ressurected as a walker.

Also the reminder of how the war started with Brandon Stark marching on King's Landing and being burned alive (as a challenge by combat) was good too. It wasn't just Robert marching south with his belief that Lyanna was raped. The Starks were fully invested too. (and the Lannisters for that matter, but that wasn't brought up here)

The Ice Dragon in the Wall is an interesting theory too. I had mentioned I have thought that wall may come down before the end of the book/TV would be interesting if an Ice Dragon breaking out of the wall would be HOW lol

MJ said...

Find it interesting that they bring up Rhaiger and Lyanna Stark when they aren't even part of the tv show. I know things happend because of them but it's very abstract for a non-book reader. Cersei having Loras locked up was an interesting move but more interesting was Margaery showing her true colors just a bit to Tommen. have to admit that I do not see the logic in Cersie sending Tommen into the poor neighborhood knowing he would fail. If she wants to keep this one alive you'd think she would not send him out to fail and look weak. He could easlity have ordered is guard to get him trhu and started a riot. Did not like Melisandre using Ygrittes line of 'you know nothing Jon Snow' - it just seemed wrong. I see a hole in Baelish's theory that Stannis will rescue poor Sansa from the Boltons - why would they give her up if she is engaged to a Bolton ? And since his backup plan is that Sansa makes Ramsey her bitch - I withdraw my previous comment that surely Peter knows everything so has to know about Ramsey. Cause if he thinks any one can make Ramsey 'theirs' he def does not know Ramsey. Considering the Unsullied are professional soldiers the Sons of Harpy seem to be having no trouble killing them. Hope neither Greyworm isn't dead since it's convenient that Dany's council just got killed but Jormont is on his way back. Seeing on the Web how Barrister dying is kinda a big deal - and seeing him fight. Either I haven't paid attention these years or it just was not obvious to non-bookers - had no clue he was so famous or renowned for fighting. Now he was a Kings guard or Hand to the Mad King at some point I thought. Whatever. LOL

Ok - have to read your recap and the other comments now. Behind on commenting this week.

Anonymous said...

MJ, LOL. YOu're perspective is great. I can see why Rhaegar and Lyanna stuff is confusing, certainly not applicable to non bookers. ONe thing that hasn't been established on the TV show is the timeframe. It's been presented as just a kind of one day event from the time Rhaegar took Lyanna until their deaths. Without the timeframe, non book readers could find that kind of superfelous at best.

And you're right Barristan's background as a great fighter was only briefly mentioned except for when he met Dany and protected her from shape shifter.

I would love to see Sansa instill FEAR in Ramsay! Show him who's boss. He gets bored easily as did Joffrey, maybe she'll have a cure for that. Given what she saw happen to Joffrey at the wedding and how Petyr explained it to her. She may have a wedding surprise for Ramsay in the way of poison! The people in the shadows of the castle will be on her side.


Mike V. said...

MJ, I'll have to respond to your comments more later and I'm sure Richard covered it...but Lyanna and Rhaegar aren't really part of the books either. They're just talked about a lot.

The show mentions them on occassion.

But I will say, their story is definitely important to the whole series...and it's potentially one of the reasons GRRM allowed HBO and D&D to greenlight the show in the first place. There was one question he asked them and they answered correctly.

Of course, if I tell you what that question is then you'll probably figure out what I'm talking about...but the recap pretty much discusses it anyway...and if I'm not mistaken, I think you figured it out last season anyway and posted the question in one of our recap comments! :-)

Anonymous said...

A couple of links to some interesting viewpoints. I don't agree with all written in them, but I certainly agree on several points, such as this was a weak ep, and Selmy could have gone out with a better fight and some GREAT lines that could easily have been used from the books. Also, I didn't like Tyrion turning away from the whore--it's not his personality and changes it a lot from the books. You can say he's grown beyond the books, but in some ways that just a load of you know what. Perhaps GRRM has him changing in the "books not yet written--BNYW--lol" and the TV show is working toward that direction?
I'm not as down on the Dorne scenes as most seem to be though. It was a short ep and so they could have done more however. I suspect we'll see some good things coming.


Mike V. said...

@MJ - more comments on your thoughts.

Barristan's reputation has been brought up many times in the show, but unless you rewatched it a zillion times the lines may not have caught you. Jaime and Barristan talk in season 1 about their shared experiences in battle and Jaime just worships the guy. In season 2, Jaime talks the the cousin he kills in the cage about Barristan being one of the greatest swordsmen alive. When barristan is excommunicated from the King's Guard he explains how he could kill all them without lifting a finger or whatever. There's lots of little things dropped. Oh and When littlefinger tells Sansa about the Tournament at Harrenhall in this episode he mentions that Rheagar went against Ser Barristan in the final match (indicating that he was pretty darn good). But yeah, they rarely discussed it while he was present in the room to put the reputation with the face. Barristan's death is also a big deal to book readers because his most interesting chapters were just coming up from a book perspective. It's just another example of the show consolidating these 2 books...probably for the better. Barristan had some good chapters, but Meereen as a whole was/is a storyline that was boring involving a lot of people we don't care about. So, consolidation is good.

Glad you've come around on the Littlefinger knowledge of Ramsay. Though, I'm not sure I'm glad that it's actually a plot on the show. How on earth could he not know of Ramsay's reputation? Unless it's been a well kept secret. Maybe LF's spies are only in King's Landing and not up North.

I like how you said JORMONT combining his first and last name. Not sure if it was intentional, but I like it!

As Richard says, it's definitely good to get the non-reader perspective on the show. We have that background knowledge while watching so some things stand out more than it would if you don't have it.

@Richard - I'll read them if I get a chance. I will say this though. I'm not a book purist. And book purists are ALWAYS going to hate change without having an open mind. As a TELEVISION SHOW, I have to say this season has been great so far. It feels less like going through chapters of a book and more like a show unleashed from its chains. If we're going to analyze book differences and character differences, sure there's probably some things to complain about. Tyrion's character was changed from the books the minute he didn't find out about Tysha (his "whore" wife) from Jaime when he was released. It changed the whole dynamic of that duo. Now Tyrion's not pissed at Jaime, but Jaime is pissed at Tyrion. Anyway, I'm fine with him turning down the fact, I think it makes sense. The last whore he was with he fell in love with and then eventually killed.

I'm with everyone else on the Dorne scenes...mainyl the Sand Snakes. It just didn't work for me, but I'm sure it'll get better.

Anonymous said...

SandSnakes--I truly don't expect Jaime or Bronn to survive the encounter. So, they will appear lethal.

Good point on Jaime/Tyrion change in dynamic. But, again I don't like it. It's not a HUGE deal, but to me it deserves mentioning.

A lot of poeple are freaked out about the Sansa/Ramsay deal, but I'm not. I can see the good possibilities. BUT, if they turn this into another Sansa torturefest, I will be threatening to quit watching.

I think Petyr's ignorance of Ramsay is very hard to swallow. My personal opinion is that he is likely aware of the rumors about Ramsay but believes more in Sansa's abilities. And that after Sansa takes care of Ramsay, at some point in the future when he comes back he will tell her that he had faith in her abilities. To me, it would be demeaning to Sansa to have to be rescued by Brienne. I have grown to like her and her strength as darth Sansa, even though in S1 I couldn't stand her. It would be much better if Brienne is not needed, that Sansa is strong enough in rallying those around her and she grows as a true leader.


MJ said...

Don't know if I was just off sunday or what but thought the ep a little boring. Seemed like lots references to people and places I don't know. And alot of repition - Stannis again saying he's going North (just go already), Dany yet again saying she's not opening up Fight Club.

Though there was amusement with conversations between Bron/Jamie and Tyrion/Mormont. Kinda lame to have Bron suggest the captain could turn on them and then have it happen I thought - and a waste of screen time. Maybe because you'd given me some background previously about Ned's sister Lyanna and Robert loving her but I didn't find the conversation all that enlightening. And I guess I'd already known about the questioning of someone parentage as well.

Richard - def agree that Tommen is not up to par. Also that Cersei is not helping him. I was concerned that they were calling him names and she just armed them. Did she unwittingly set the Sparrows on her son of incest ?? And while Jamie should not be glad Tyrion killed their father Tyrion in a way saved Jamie from having to leave Kings Landing and take up residence at Casterly Rock as he'd promised his father. Glad to hear I wasn't the only one a little bored. I'm not sure it's possible o frighten Ramsey - except something like the dragons. But def not Sansa. LOL

Mike V. said...

Sand Snakes - If one of them doesn't survive, I'm betting on Bronn. I don't think Jaime's story is over yet.
Jaime/Tyrion - I think when it comes down to it, I don't think Jaime would kill Tyrion. But who knows.

Sansa/Ramsay - Yep...I know. Can't say much out of spoiler territory but I think it will go in a different way than the book storyline did...especially with Sansa involved now.

The whole thing with Sansa is the actress has aged more than the character did in the books. Of course in season 3 she was still supposed to be 14, so how old is she supposed to be here?? lol Anyway, they're giving Sophie Turner meatier plots because her age and abilities as an actress demand it. I think Brienne will be involved somehow, but it might not be flat out "rescuing" Sansa. Also, we know Stannis is marching south too so who knows where this is all going with Brienne and Sansa in the mix?

@MJ - I think we're still in setup/exposition time for the big events to come. While you may not appreciate the people and places brought up now it will most likely pay big dividends for the show down the road and it needed to be included at some point. Lots of people know about the theories on the parentage...but it's a big deal for the show to actually have that conversation added in for confirmation that "they're probably going there". There were 3 scenes by 3 different points of view which help deduce it:

1.) Stannis talks about Jon Snow and how it was not like Ned Stark to have a bastard son with a tavern wench.
2.) Littlefinger and Sansa have a discussion about the Tournament at Harrenhall that sparked Robert's Rebellion. Sansa gives the Stark/Baratheon point of view of Rhaegar Targaryan (rapist/kidnapper)
3.) Barristan Selmy speaks of Dany's brother Rhaegar Targaryan as a Lover, not a fighter. A musician who liked sneaking out into the city and posing as a streat minstrel. barristan spoke fondly of Rhaegar.

But Sansa's knowledge is via word of mouth...Barristan's is direct knowledge of Rhaegar Targaryan. Those 3 plot details weren't thrown into the same episode by coincidence. It was like the cliff's notes version to all of the same facts that are presented over the course of 5 books. I think it's very essential that the information was provided. And even if it wasn't value added to readers have been anxiously waiting for the Tournament at Harrenhall to come up at some point in the series. Whether it was Jojen telling Bran (which happened in the books), a flashback, or some other way (i.e. littlefinger telling sansa)

I will agree with the repetition of some dialogue. I really enjoyed the episode though.

Anonymous said...

I'm thinking Bronn too. It's just that they've gone over the top about those Sand Snakes and if they get taken out without either Jamie or Bronn being killed, then the Sand Snakes was a great fake out. I don't WANT either of them killed really. Maybe Myrcella gets killed since that's where her vengeance is currently pointed.

GRRM editor complaining about last ep.

I tend to agree with her. Including Loras stuff.

I was thinking that if he got the books out the divergence wouldn't be as great. But, now I"m not so sure?


Mike V. said...

I stand by my comments. Book purists (including editors) are gonna hate regardless!!

Convergence is Coming!! :)

Anonymous said...

YOu know the opposite of hate is not love? But apathy.

Mike V. said...

I think you mean the opposite of love isn't hate. It's apathy. Makes a little bit of a difference! Lol

But I highly disagree that the Internet is indifferent. They are very loud about what they dislike!

Anonymous said...

I was taught in college that the hate/love thing works both ways do to high levels of passion and caring, one way or the other, while apathy just doesn't care.

But I agree the internet is full of those book readers that are not liking what's happening. I'm not in that camp at all. Just noting that GOT has good and bad or atleast not as good-lol


Mike V. said...

That logic works too! lol

I agree...there are some things the show does better than the book and some things the book does better than the show. But, I'm glad they both exist.

Then there are some things neither do well! lol Sand Snakes introduction in show? Pretty rough. Introducing a large amount of new characters in books 4 and 5 that we care nothing about while making us wait to read the continuation of stories we care about? Pretty rough! lol