Monday, May 18, 2015

Game of Thrones: Season 5 Episode 6 - Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Hello all and welcome back to our Game of Thrones discussion.  A discussion each week becoming more and more about a television show and less and less about a book series the show was based on!  Yes, I exaggerate.  But, the media and some hardcore fans would make you think that is the case.  This week included a scene that book fans were worried was going to happen.  We'll discuss it when we get there.  While it is a little shocking due to the characters involved, it still does seem to me that the showrunners are being completely faithful to the books and that this is still one of the best adaptations on television.  Last night's episode as a whole was fantastic yet again and directly included some of the best highlights from George R. R. Martin's latest 2 books (I know using the word "latest" is pretty comical).  Let's dive right into the recap.

Spoiler Disclaimer:  I've read the books and will discuss book vs. show if the show covers the plot.  If I ever bring up a clear cut spoiler in the recap it will be indicated as so.  Otherwise, I usually save them for the comments and will clearly indicate my comments as "SPOILER" or "BOOK DISCUSSION" and encourage anyone else to do the same!
We will debate and discuss, I'm sure some of the "controversial scenes" but you know EW has you covered as well.  This time?  Even George R. R. Martin himself has dove into the ring defending the show.  Here are some links:

Arya leveled up in her quest to become no one which led to a creepy yet pretty awesome scene.
  • We saw a montage of Arya cleaning one corpse after another.  She finally lost it on the girl and told her she wants to know why she's doing it and that she's ready for the game of faces.   The girl told a story how she grew up like Arya but ended up having her step mother killed and has been with the faceless men ever since.  But, we kind of learned it was a lie even though it seemed like the truth.  It's all part of the job of becoming no one.  
  • Jaqen later tested Arya by asking who she is.  Arya told the truth of Arya Stark, but every time she changed a detail Jaqen slapped her silly indicating she lied.  The biggest lie being when she said she hated the Hound and wanted him to suffer.   (Nice way to imply she felt a bond with the man without having to explore her inner thoughts)
  • While she was frustrated, the preparation seemed to work when a man brought his dying daughter to the House of Black and White.  Arya told some story to comfort the girl about how she was sick and dying and that drinking the water in this House cured her.  
  • Jaqen watched on with approval and allowed Arya to follow him where the cleaned bodies go.  And then we saw it.   A giant chamber with many many faces removed from their former bodies' owners.  I can't even imagine the CGI effort that went into this scene.  Making all of those unique faces.  I'm sure some of them were made for real and then the ones you couldn't really see were duplicated, but still a pretty impressive shot!  
  • So, they don't really explain what this means, but enough is implied that I don't feel bad discussing it!  Jaqen tells Arya she is not ready to become no one, but she is ready to become "SOME ONE ELSE".  Nice.  The faces of the dead are the faces that "the faceless men" wear to change their appearance.  I'm not sure how much the show will go into details here, but that's the gist.  
  • I actually can't remember if there was a scene like this in the books with a room of faces.  But, I think the concept is still similar and it made for an awesome visual.  There's another subplot from the books for Arya that seems like it might be cut on the show, but I'll refrain from discussing until I know for sure! 
Road to Meereen
We rejoin Tyrion and Jorah on their journey to Meereen.  And fun is had by all. 
  • No talk of Jorah's pending greyscale outbreak, but it's looming!
  • Tyrion complained about the lack of food and villages that Jorah said they might run into.  
  • Jonah asked why Tyrion was transported to Essos in a crate, which led to him explaining exactly what he did.  He killed his father who wanted him dead and was sleeping with the woman he loved.  
  • Tyrion went on to talk about Jorah's father, Lord Commander Mormont who was murdered in an uprising at Craster's Keep.  Jorah hadn't heard yet.  I don't remember if this exchange of information was in the books, but I thought it was nicely done on the show.  
  • Tyrion and Jorah also talk about "Why Suppor Dany?"  Tyrion doesn't understand why he would blindly support her claim to the throne when she hasn't spent a day in Westeros or proven her ability to lead.  I loved the line about her family being famously insane.  Jorah spoke of the great pyre in which her dragons were born and she survived without a scratch on her.  Jorah went from cynic to believer.  Judging by Tyrion's first run in with Drogon, he probably will be too. 
  • Oh wait, there's a slave ship!  And Tyrion and Jorah have been captured by.....what?  Mr. EKO!!!!  Okay, it's not really Mr. Eko, but it's certainly the same actor that played the infamous fake priest from LOST.  Lots of hysterical discussions around magic Dwarf organs and how Tyrion's matches up to any average size man.  "The dwarf lives until we find a **** merchant" had me rolling.  
  • Long story short, we continue our adaptation of Gladiator with a famous soldier being sold into slavery and his determination to "win the crowd and give them something they've never seen before".   In this case it's Jorah Mormont and not Maximus.  Tyrion did a good job selling his resume', but killing a Dothraki bloodrider in single combat was what sold Slaver Man on it.  
  • So, this is how Tyrion and Jorah will get to Meereen, as slaves!  Good times and very much in line with the books in concept if not exactly how.   

King's Landing
Littlefinger arrives for more book detours!  And Cersei one-ups the Tyrells for at least today! 
  • Littlefinger seems to be playing both sides to his advantage.  After some small talk about the Tyrells (which is what I thought Cersei summoned him there for), Littlefinger came clean about finding Sansa Stark.  He didn't explain how he got her out of the city or masterminded the killing of her son.  But, he did say he found her at Winterfell ready to marry Roose Bolton's former bastard son.  
  • Cersei was beside herself that the Bolton's would make such a bold move. Littlefinger advises her to strike on Winterfell AFTER Stannis decimates the Boltons.  Both sides will have huge losses and WINTER IS COMING.  And then when they get their stake back in Winterfell, Littlefinger wants to become Lord of Winterfell.  What's his game here?  I guess get all the players involved and see which one gives him the biggest reward?  Chaos is a ladder, right?  Cersei said that she'll trust his intentions when Sansa's head is on a spike.  OUCH!  
  • This whole encounter is purely the TV show.   In the books Sansa and Littlefinger never left The Vale.  So everyone wins here even if we continue to alter the story.  There's always a chance it's heading in the same direction.  
  • More alterations, Lady Olenna has returned to King's Landing to help free her son!  Long Story short, she failed.  Cersei still claims to have nothing to do with Loras' imprisonment and said that the inquest by the Septon is just a formality.   We witnessed the inquest where Loras denied having relations with Renly or other men.  And then Margaery went on record swearing before the gods the same thing.   Enter Oliver who clearly implicates he's done the deed with Loras many times and it was even witnessed by Queen Margaery.  And then, who would've thought that the random talk of a Birthmark in the shape of Dorne would reap benefits?   
  • At the end of the day, Loras will now stand trial for his actions.  And in a further twist, so will Queen Margaery!  King Tommen just sat there and took it like the puppet he is (if you notice, Cersei's hand was on his arm during the entire scene).  
  • Cersei definitely found a way to get Margaery arrested by the Faith Militant in the books, but I believe it was under different circumstances.  I think she wanted to prove that Margaery was sleeping around, and she set up a bunch of scenarios that would be impossible for her to resist her urges.  But, this method seems a little more plausible.  
  • And Cersei certainly smiles for now, but she is still 1/2 of one of the most unholy pairings of all.  And it was implied by Olenna in this episode.  Will this come back to bite her in the end?  Time will tell. 
  • Also implied was how the Tyrells are supplying wheat to the throne, which seems to be an important oversight with winter looming.   I doubt the Queen of Thorns is just going to sit there and take this abuse.  

And we're back to Dorne.  While I still enjoy Jaime and Bronn, I still maintain that this might be the weakest story the show has ever attempted.  Granted, the source material wasn't much better.
  • Oh look, Myrcella is in love with Tristane, her betrothed.  How sweet!  Oh no they're kissing.  They mustn't not until they have said their vows!  
  • Prince Doran talks to his right hand man Areo Hotah who is infamous for his skills with an axe.  If you didn't know that, the cringe-worthy exposition in this scene let you know that he still remembers how to use it.  Doran is determined to protect these two young lovebirds.  
  • Meanwhile Bronn and Jaime are dressed as Dornish Soldiers (Nice singing Bronn), and are able to sneak into the capital.   Our cartoonish Sand Snakes are released from some dungeon to take them on.  
  • Uncle Jaime finds Myrcella kissing her betrothed and tells her she has to leave.  Nice.   Naturally, she doesn't want to. 
  • Enter the Sand Snakes.  Fight. Fight. Fight. Fight.  Lots of sword and spear swinging, and no injures outside of a nick to Bronn.  Prince Doran takes EVERYONE involved into custody.  Ooh, and we got to see Areo Hotah swing his axe telling Jaime it would've been a good fight when he was whole.  
  • Stay tuned for more excitement in a future installment!   
You didn't think we'd let a season go by without more than 1 wedding, did you?  It's Sansa's wedding day (again) and she got all the warnings she possibly could for what she's in for.  
  • It's still tough to determine Miranda's intentions but she told Sansa of all of the ladies that bored Ramsay in the past.  The last one she mention tied into a scene we saw last season with Ramsay an Miranda on a hunt to kill his former fling.   Sansa responded in a Lady-like tone that she is a Stark and in Winterfell and she's sorry she's stealing her man but she's not scared.  
  • It's snowing in Winterfell and Sansa has on her wedding dress.  Reek/Theon has arrived to escort Sansa to the godswood.  Reek has even resorted to the lowborn speak calling her "M'lady".  Sansa refuses to take Theon's arm.  Once again we get the short version of the Westeros Wedding. Though, it's a different custom in the North than what we've seen in King's Landing and at The Twins.  
  • Ramsay takes her back to their bed chamber with Reek in tow.  Ramsay speaks of her being a virgin and asks how she still is since she was married to Tyrion.  Sansa says he was kind and gentle and never touch him.  Ramsay got all Ramsay and started speaking of not lying to him.  Then asks her to remove her clothes and wants Reek to watch.  Things start getting dire quickly.  Ramsay tells him to watch the girl he's known since childhood become a woman.  And then Ramsay forces himself onto his new wife, thankfully off screen.  Theon's face says it all.  He might be very near a breaking  point. 
  • Okay, book comparison time.  This happened in the books, of course it was with Fake Arya and not Sansa (because she was still in the Vale, as mentioned previously).  Fake Arya was Sansa's friend Jeyne Poole.  Reek was definitely very much involved in the scene, but if I'm not mistaken in the books Ramsay forces him to join in.  So, believe it or not, they actually toned things down for the show.  Fans are in an uproar that they would do this to Sansa Stark.  But, it seems like Sansa actually knew this might be part of the deal.  She's a hardened girl in the show, and we have to think she's going to be looking for the upper hand.  If anything happened here, MAYBE she gained some sympathy for Theon.  And maybe Theon is going to find some of himself again.  
  • If anything happened, we are all united in our hatred of the Boltons and they must be dealt with! 
I should be clear, I have no idea what's going to happen.  Well, that's not true.  I have speculations on what might happen based on what happens in the books.  But, with Sansa as our wildcard instead of some very minor character, there's no telling where things might go.   But, we do know Brienne is close by and Stannis is marching South.  There will be a showdown in Winterfell.  And, I have to think Sansa will be a strong player in that showdown.  Time will tell.  

I'll save the rest for the comments!  So, next week is Memorial Day.  Not sure if I'm going to have time for a recap or not but I will post something at the very least.  The week after that I'll be traveling so it could be tough again as well.  We'll just play things by ear.  Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you before the end of the season!    


Anonymous said...

OK, that was just AWFUL. I was liking the ep and then boom, the Sansa rape. So much reminded of the stupid director for Jamie/Cersei book non rape/TV show rape scene. I immediately erased the ep. Made Sansa look weak, I hated it.

I know they're just wanting us to understand that Ramsay needs to die. yadda yadda yadda. We already KNOW that. This is just more of the same which show's a very weak ability to broaden the story line. More of the same C**p is just that, c**p. Shows a lack of imagination and ability to just go to a rape scene to engender an audience reaction and then fall behind the old line of "art" or we need that to convey the emotion, etc c**p.

Turned a not so bad ep into absolute c**p.


Anonymous said...

REad yours and last part of Hibberd's recap.

Hibberd is not a psychologist and he's embarassing himself trying to be one. Masochists might want to be hurt in order to appreciate a TV show. But most aren't masochists. I don't need to see Sansa raped to be invested in the show. I instead erased the ep and have decided to not be invested in c**p. I like many others have a busy life and don't have time for junk art. Entertainment to me needs to be compelling not repelling. That scene was repulsive, crass and hateful to women. It was insulting to men as well.

I didn't and won't read the defense of the scene junk. Anyone who could come up with it, doesn't deserve to be read. I don't think I"m alone in my feelings and so those same exact feelings are why Hibberd's reasonings behind a scene like this is just junk psychology.

Show runners have yanked the trust out of the show for me. It's like someone who fools you with consequences. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I don't shame myself.


Anonymous said...

OH and btw, the Sand Sanke fight seemed childish and way too fake.

I suspect Bronn is poisoned??


Anonymous said...

From the Washington Post review:

"The five main takeaways from this week’s disheartening episode of “Game of Thrones”…

1. If the episode’s final scene convinced you to never watch GoT again, I can’t entirely blame you"

Glad to know reason still exits.


Mike V. said...

Pretty much expected that reaction, and I'm really not going to get into it much more (well not planning to).

What they did was stay faithful to the books, but they also kind of implied that Sansa also knows what she's getting into. She could have fought or struggled. She didn't. I'm not saying that makes it better, but those are intentional choices in the direction and writing. And there's a chance she's seeing Theon in a different light. And it might be the straw that breaks the camel's back with Theon.

It certainly was shocking and offputting, but I have to think if they left it in there, then it's to be impactful for the events to come.

I'm not going to say I loved the scene but it certainly was impactful and I'm eager to see what happens next. And I assure you, Sansa will get some kind of vengence.

Personally, I don't get that offended by content on a television show to get all up in arms about it and demand equal rights for all sexes, races, gender equality and all that crap. It's just a television show and they're telling a story. The world is getting TOO PC where even in a fictional world we have to demand certain things. There was precendence in the book for this scene to happen, and it happened. WORLD: Get over it and watch the rest of the show. END STANCE.

On other note:

I did suspect Bronn might be poisoned as well, but I was too rushed to go back and add it to my notes. It did seem like a blatant shot of him getting scratched. And we've seen before on this's never just a scratch.

Mike V. said...

Different topic: Tyrion and Jorah. So I know they become slaves outside of Meereen in the books (because it's outside of Dany's jurisdiction or something like that)....but here they have been sold into slavery to fight in the pits.

Don't these slavers know that the pits will be fought with FREE people? I guess they still plan to make money with Jorah regardless. And of course Jorah has greyscale so he thinks he's going to die anyway. Granted, he'll be bringing his disease into the city and potentially causing a mass outbreak of it.

This is just speculation (communal speculation) as it hasn't happened in the books yet either (someone else has Greyscale but not Jorah)....this could be Dany's way OUT of Meereen. Just plague the city and move on. lol

Anonymous said...

That's just it. It's not in the books, Sansa wasn't there, it was Jeyne. Jeyne didn't go through the Joffrey stuff and grow through it and other events. You can't say Sansa getting raped was in the books. And since this is all being made up by show runners, why choose this fantasy to try and be close to the books. After the last rape scene without a payoff they haven't earned it.

Whatever comes next will not be better by this scene. The context was already there, this is just vain repitition screaming for creativity. This scene was gratuitus and since they're supposedly having trouble condesning, this is a scene that should never have been made. There's not going to be any follow on scene that justifies this. Just like Cersei/Jamie supposedly would be justified later and it hasn't been. No payoff.

The Dany scene with Drogo was not nearly as rapey as this and that relationship grew. There was a payoff. I never complained about that scene, it was from the books and well done. So, I'm not being PC. IN the case of Jamie/Cersei, my complaint was that it was done NOT in line with the books. If it had been portrayed as Cersei eventually really asking for Jamie, then I wouldn't have complained about that scene.

So, here's a breakdown on my take of the 3 rape scenes

1. Dany/Drogo---done as in the books, well done and had a payff.
2. Cersei/Jamie--Wasn't even a rape in the books really. But TV show made it one--therein lies my complaint. And no payoff.
3. Sansa/Ramsay--Not in the books as storyline has changed with substitution of characters not developed the same way. IE, Sansa's background very different from Jeyne's Ramsay's character beyond fully established and Sansa's position already established and so did not further the character development in a way that couldn't have been done in other ways, more creative ways to go with a creative storyline. I find it essentially lazy and repulsive with no redeeming need. There is no payoff potential. Brienne possibly saving Sansa isn't in the books, so much not in the books now. I was OK with it because condensing had to happen. And so condensing this away could have been done too.

The only thing in the books about this rape was Ramsay raping some woman(Jeyne). How many times have we seen him rape a woman.

It's axiomatic that if the scene does not further the character development nor the storyline then it becomes gratuitous.

IF, Theon kills Ramsay because of this, then there would be payoff and I will have to later make that acknowledgement. But it can't be Brienne, she wasn't there to see the horror. Honestly up until the cut I thought Sansa was going to pull a knife out of her sleeve.

It will be interesting to see what MJ has to say.


Anonymous said...

I don't think these slavers KNOW that Mereen fighting pits are for freemen. I think they're assuming it's like the old days since they've just been reopened.

But, I think Jorah will fight in the pits as a way of getting away from the slavers. The slavers of course won't be able to hold Tyrion and Jorah in Mereen.

The greyscale will hurt Mereen and Dany will leave it worse than she found it I think. Which ties into what Tyrion was saying about her not having the credentials to rule. I really think Tyrions statements hold value about Dany. If she leaves Mereen and hasn't set up an infrastructure to run the city and it's diseased without a government to help then the people of Mereen would likely end up despising her.

I thought the basement with the many faces was great.


Mike V. said...

I thought there has been payoff (maybe not in huge dividends) to last year's "awkward moment" (that's all I'll call it because there's been debate on what it actually was)....Jaime and Cersei certainly aren't on the best of terms...and that tone still continues today with Bronn questioning Jaime a couple episodes back.

The show is being consolidated. Characters from the books are filling in roles to keep the plot on course. I'm with you..I thought they were going to change that scene a bit, which they did but not to the point where it was indistinguishable from books. They just lessened the awfulness of it, but it was still awful. But the fact that we've seen Sansa become a power player over the course of her story arc....leads me to think that she will use this to her advantage.

We can agree to disagree with the rest. I think there has been payoff to Theon's constant torture in season 3. We saw the evolution of Reek instead of it just happening off screen. We know how difficult it is for him to interject in that moment because of what has happened to him. That leads me to think there could be payoff in what happened to Sansa.

The Dany/Drogo scene was actually more rapish than it was in the the end of that dany was enjoying it if I recall (in the books).... I'm not saying YOU in particular are being PC.....but the fact that there is such a hoopla around it and the fact that we even have to discuss it is what is a bit frustrating.

That's exactly seemed like this scene was meant to show a change in THEON more than Sansa...sure Sansa may get revenge for it...but if it was the last straw for Theon, then I say it's worth the risk.

MEEREEN - Good point...though surely people know Dany is going around freeing slaves left and right. How would they NOT know about the city being freed? Totally agree that Tyrion's statements make absolute sense. Meereen is a mess in the show and the books and I don't know how you recover from it all.....unless she gets control of her dragons and that's part of her establishing order. We shall see!

The basement of faces was AWESOME!

**** BOOK SPECULATION (though I don't really think it hurts to read it) **************

I've also read speculation that maybe greyscale may be somehow used AGAINST the White Walkers. I don't even know how this can be considered a spoiler because there is nothing in the books that seem to imply that.

Anonymous said...

The negative stuff between Cersei and Jamie was established with his hand when he came back. So, again the "rape" scene doesn't do anything to change what had already been established. There were several times where she was negative to Jamie. Of course we know this will set something up. But, the "rape" scene wasn't necessary since even toward the end of that on TV she "seemingly" grabbed him according to Lena. Everyone agrees it was poorly done though.

GReyscale ************ speculation***********

That kind of makes a little sense with the stonemen being in Valyria and Valyria being the source of dragon stone. The thing is, I don't know how those Stonemen are still alive. I mean you're supposed to die of greyscale and they weren't dead, they were transformed. Which is beyond what the books have to say as far as I can recall.

So, maybe there's some kind of "power" in Valyria that hurts the White Walkers and the stonemen/greyscale is just another one?

The stuff Tyrion was saying made me wonder about that theory from a couple of weeks ago where the White Walkers were actually on the side of "good". Bran will have something to do with it too. But I recall the wrights were trying to kill Bran so how is that good?

Interesting that the wedding was at a weirwood tree.


MJ said...

Geez - swamped at work. No time read your recap yet - and theres's already 10 comments ? LOL

So many on web upset that Sansa had to have sex with her husband - saying show has gone too far this time. Seriously ? It could have been so much worse considering who she married,
and besides on this show women are always being forced to marry and bed men they don't want to. I thought Dany's first few times with Drogo were worse then this. While embarassing to have Reek watching it still could have been worse. Was proud of Sansa though - not falling for Miranda's tricks and refusing to take Reek's arm. So Arya is not going to become 'no one' ? Seemed like Jaqen was saying he had something else in mind ? Or did I misunderstand that? Mr. Eko is into slavery now !?! LOL And way more then I needed to know about Tyrion and dwarf penis. Just saying. LOL But oh Baelish - putting Sansa with the Bolton's then running to Cersei to tell her Sansa is with the Boltons ! Just so he can offer to clean up after Stannis beats the Boltons and take the North for himself. Cersei putting the Queen in jail ! Priceless. Don't think the threat of no wheat is going to save Margaery from this one. Still say the zealots will turn on Cersei though. Sand snakes did nothing for me - don't even know why they brought them on - unless there will be more to them in the future.

I'll try to check back later

Mike V. said...

Glad we can at least agree on the Cersei/Jaime stuff to some degree. lol Yes the hand stuff was mirrored in that scene and one near the end.


Yeah i really don't recall exactly what the book said of the stonemen. But, everything I've read in the past week talked of 2 types of zombies in this world...Wights and Stonemen. Zombies usually die before they are reanimated. But GRRM never says the Z word in his series. (just like TWD doesn't either lol) Everything about the Valyria connections makes sense. It was a civilization of OLD MAGIC....just like the White Walkers are magical beings too. Valyria was destroyed by FIRE.... Song if Ice and Fire....certainly ties in well. It also ties Essos and Westeros together much more than in the past. Where everything in Westeros seems to be the main conflict...but maybe in the end the entire WORLD (or whatever we call it) is in jeopardy with these magical beings returning.

I really thought Tyrion's questioning was setting up for him to become enamored with Dany and WANT to advise her. But I could see why you went the other route with that theory! lol

Anonymous said...

OH, I'm pretty sure Tyrion will see where he can help Dany. And I believe Dany will see how Tyrion can help her. But that relationship doesn't mean Dany's going to be a guaranteed good ruler with Tyrion's help. She could ignore him on key decisions. Creating drama of course.

MJ, your take on Sansa rape is interesting. Been looking forward to see what you had to say.

Arya's on a path of growth and so this would be a step in that direction of becoming "no one." A key of being no one is being able to decipher if someone is truthful.


MJ said...

Richard - good thoughts on the poisoning ! Didn't think of that. You probably don't like my opinion - I was one of the 'it wasn't rape' with Cersei and Jamie folk.

I don't know why people are so up in arms ! This is the way this world works. The women are basicly commodities sold into marriage with people they don't love or like. If they are lucky they get a decent man and he is kind to them - I'm sure that it often not the case. And in this world - that wasn't rape. While not shocked by it it's not like I enjoyed it though. Surely no one was shocked that Ramsey forced his way on her ? He has the right cause he's the husband. Just saying. it's like watching a show/movie like Gladiator (just an example) and complaining that there is cruelty to the slaves who are forced to fight. Can you complain when the shark is killed in Jaws? It is they way their world is written. Why she is willing to do this for Peter is really the question. Agree - there is a reason they had in in there and I think a def plan by Sansa by the way she handled it. Is Gof T on next weekend ? But if there is anything to be up in arms about - it's Peter purposefully putting her in this position instead of keeping her safe at the Veil - all so he can prosper. Peter's is the one who has caused the harm here.

Good thing you said I exaggerate about the book talk - every other recap of this episode HAD to mention that Sansa does not get raped by Ramsey in the book. Strangely I kept wondering why would Peter even want Winterfel when he now has the Veil. But we all know Peter has a plan. You don't mean it literally when you say 'wear the faces' do you ? That whole Eko/Tyrion conversation had me rolling. And Tyrion's reaction to the assumed smallness too. You mean Olanna retured to clear her grand son ? ;-D

Arya - ah ok. thanks for that clarity.

Greyscale - interesting on the theory that that is how Dany will get out of Mereen. Liked Tyrion's take - being a mother of Dragons does not make you a good leader.

Mike V. said...

Tyrion and the dwarf "thing".'s not the first time this has been mentioned in the show! lol Margaery talked about it in code with Sansa that there were rumors about it. lol But I had me rolling too.

Yep being "someone else" is on the step of becoming no one. But, I don't think any of us really think she's going to abandon her identity as Arya. The very fact that she hid Needle is a hint at that.

As for your opinion of the Sansa stuff...we're on the same page. It's a different world, different rules and it's a fictional story and the story must be told the way it needs to be told. Hence my whole "GET OVER IT" mentality to the thing. I don't even have time to be bothered by the discussion. But, I get what Richard is saying about it all. I just don't care! lol It's not affecting my viewing of the show. Good comparison with Gladiator and Jaws.

Petyr loves is a ladder! lol

Well Sansa does NOT get raped by Ramsay in the books. But that storyline DID happen. And it's important to THEON's arc. And I think it will be important for Sansa's now too. I think in the "previously on" segment they highlighted a quote from Littlefinger about how holding the North was key to overthrowing the Targaryan dynasty back during Robert's Rebellion.

Olenna- did I say SON? Yes I meant grandson. lol

Theories - I like we're getting to the place where they really are just theories now. We're all almost on the same page with the exception that we may know a few more intricate details here and there that inform the story. lol The plots are pretty much the same.

Mike V. said...

I checked IMDB - It looks like there will be an episode next week. Considering I'll be at an annual BBQ that Sunday and probably in no shape to drive home, there will most likely be 2 weeks without recaps. SORRY!! :-)

Anonymous said...

do you really BBQ or grill?

I'm thinking about smoking some ribs. Maybe brisket.

MJ, good thoughts.

ON the rape stuff, I get it as far as that's the world they are in. I have LOTS of points of criticism in it, beginning with the show runners are lazy and there are other ways to get the points across. What Joffrey did to Roz was MUCH worse that what happened to Sansa and I had no probs with it due to what was going on and him reaching a new level of violence.

LIke I said, if Theon has a reaction to this and takes out Ramsay then I'll be all good with the scene.

LOL on Jamie/Cersei, it wasn't supposed to be rape.

MJ, good point on Petyr being behind what happens to Sansa. I wonder if she'll see it that way?


MJ said...

Richard - are you from the south ? I only wonder since you asked for clarification on grilling or BBQing. LOL They are kinda used interchangidly in the north east - which is not accurate. Brisket - yummm !

Good - glad they are on next week. Though we will miss your recap

Sansa - sadly she probably won't care that Peter totally used her. Guess she will be happy with the revenge she gets out of it

Anonymous said...

I was born in DC, lived and worked in a lot of places, North and South. Also judge BBQ contests as well as smoke. The FDA defines BBQ as a cooking from I think 180 to 250. It's a verb--lol. I so get your question and comments about South vs North on what is BBQ--lol. Hence my question-lol.

I learned to cook brisket from Kansas City and Houston contacts. Mine takes about 3 days to do, all in.

Yes, I live in the South and have most of my life.

BTW, you might find this interesting but I"m the ONLY non officer in my family. A lot of my family went to WEst Point, Dad is buried there. Thought you might want to know, given your Navy background. PS my Uncle was a Commander in Navy in charge of a squadron. He did a lot of night time traps. He went to WP and transferred to Navy since he wanted to fly.

I love your Navy background and associated perspectives.


Mike V. said...

Richard - Ahh like REALLY BBQ with pulled pork, ribs and brisket? Nawww lol...Burgers, Dogs....we might actually grill steaks this year because it's a smaller crowd. Ever since college we've always all gotten together for memorial day with's slowly evolved from beer pong tournaments to pool parties with our kids. :) But if you're inviting us over for ribs and brisket, maybe I'll make the trip! :) Good point MJ...being married to someone from the South I can agree that there is a big difference! lol

I remember that Joffrey stuff being another point of contention as meaningless because we already knew how awful Joffrey was. But, I thought it was pretty effective.

I really think this is definitely a big motivator for theon...the fact that they focused on his reaction for so long is a key indication of that.

I still don't necessarily think that Petyr is using Sansa. Sure, he's using everyone...but I don't think he'd actually KILL Sansa as Cersei demands. She clearly said she'd know whose side he's on when she sees Sansa's head on a spike. We'll see how it goes down. Not sure why I'm giving Littlefinger the benefit of the doubt...he DID betray Ned Stark. lol That said...Sansa has the ability to get in LF's head so there's that to be said.

MJ said...

Littlefinger - true enough about Ned - but he loved Catelyn and I think truly does care about Sansa. Which is even scarier - that he'd do this to someone he cares about. It almost speaks to my earlier point - women are cattle to be used as needed. Peter's ok with her marrying a guy and having sex with him so that Peter himself - and Sansa by extension - will come out the other side ahead in the game. He wants her to get revenge on these people - and since they killed Catelyn he wants to take them down too.

KC barbeque ! Yum. I've been to KC several times on business. I prefer a dry rub to BBQ sauce personally but KC has great steaks and BBQ for sure.

I've had alot of family in the Navy - but all enlisted. With a few Marines and army sprinkled in too, and one cousin married an air force guy - he was an officer.

Anonymous said...

MJ, I know one thing about the Navy--the Chiefs run it--lol. I've had several family members in the navy too and that seems to be unanimous. I was raised to have great respect for the Sr. and Master Chiefs. So, my wife is from Beaufort and we've been to Paris Island. The commandant served with a friend of mine.

LOL, MJ you'll understand this but with my family in the navy there were some brown vs black shoe discussions--lol.

Yes,YOU are correct the way to go is dry rub, absolutely. I also use a finishing sauce in the last 30 minutes. It seems to win any contest today the judges all want that finishing sauce. But, there is no sauce allowed to be pooled in the turn in container.

BBQ rib tip: Always remove from the back of the ribs the thin membrane before dry rub. I use a fork to get it started from a rib edge and paper towels for grip to pull it off. I also tenderize the meat with a fork before rubbing it down. Then let it sit overnight wrapped in aluminum foil. Let the meat warm up a little bit then apply rub. Later, when it's in the refrigerator again it will shrink and draw in the rub.


Mike V. said...

Anytime I wear Black shoes with my navy suit, I always say that's what the Marines do! :-) But I still get criticism. lol

GoT TV Book Club article is up:

Mike V. said...

Richard, you're in good company....some senator is quitting Game of Thrones lol

Anonymous said...

I haven't said I'm not watching yet. BUT, I'm serious that if they don't have a big payoff for that scene, I"m done.

Still no payoff for sept scene.

To me, the payoff for such a big controversial scene should be almost as big. Otherwise the payoff is weak and therefore the controversy is just gratuitous.

She has the Dorne stuff right.

EW, bookclub, disghusting support for Cersei who killed her husband, had babies with her brother, etc, etc. I totally disagree that the show has made it look like if Cersei were a man she would be a good ruler. I think she'd be more like the Mad King whom her brother killed. The work she's done with the High Sparrow show's she lacks her father's strategic thoughts. And HUGELY, he would have unleashed the Kings Guard to protect Tommen recognizing that a threat to the crown is a threat to the family.


Mike V. said...

Book Club - Yeah I disagreed when they compared her to Tywin. Absolutely not. I have to think they didn't mean exactly how that came off but who knows!?! Sure people like her as a character, but she's an awful strategist! lol

Considering this one WAS intentional (Sansa/Theon/Ramsay not Jaime/Cersei) I have no doubt there will be payoff...and I'm still confident that it was for Theon's benefit. The other you acknowledged as well...i think the 2 scenes mirrored each other last season in how Cersei approached Jaime's incompleteness (i.e. missing hand) in each scene. So, if you're looking for payoff...that was it. Long term payoff??? I's not like they've exactly been getting along like gangbusters and it's been referenced.

Anonymous said...

*******************book stuff***************

Jamie/Cersei stuff

OK, so I probably need to clarify my thoughts.
1. It's been well established w/o the sept scene that she does not want him. Even Bronn asked that question. I think to a fault.
2. The sept scene was a mistake that I think at least most will admit in it's execution. Even to the extent that Lena had to say she was grabbing for him in the end.
3. In the books, her desiring him was MUCH more and that's KEY.
4. #3 above is key because of what comes later. IN her crazy mind she wants him but doesn't want him. The sept scene in the book told Jamie she did want him ultimately. Hence Jamie's still longing for her.
5. I believe the sept scene in the book where she ultimately wanted him is key because of when she asks Jamie to come rescue her he doesn't. It's the sept scene vs Jamie not coming to Cersei that hurts her, I think. And so, that dynamic will be missed in the TV show.
6. Jamie not coming to rescue Cersei sets several kinds of things and I'm concerned that the foundation for her feelings of betrayal have NOT been layed in the TV show. And Jamie's love for her in the TV show is kind of awkward even questioning his judgment given it's been one sided. So, the TV audience will respond with, of course he won't go and won't understand her feelings of betrayal as much.

AS I write this it dawns on me that the Jamie/Cersei stuff to come may play out differently so the show runners don't care as much about the set up as I outlined above--lol.


Mike V. said...


1.) was established but when she got the upper hand on Tywin in the finale last year she DID want him. It was only after he helped Tyrion escape that she again despised him (hence Bronn asking the question again this season)
2.) Yep - which is why I don't know why you expect a payoff
3, 4, 5.) I think it still works...she only wants/needs him when it's convenient to her. When she gets in trouble this season and wants his help...she NEEDS him. I don't think it'll be missed. Plus...RS will still be there. lol
6.) I do think it will be missed from the other perspective (Jaime's) because he never really indicated that he's mad at her or doesn't love her. Unless he somehow still finds out about Lancel. (I see you wrote about that as well) may just go down a totally different way. We shall see!

Anonymous said...

Good point on her wanting him before Tywin killed. Forgot about that.

OK, so maybe I'm being anal in wanting a payoff--lol.


Anonymous said...

From WIC on Sansa rape scene. Interesting compilation of views.

They point out the Jamie/Cersei scene being a mistake of editing.

This makes you believe there will be more Sansa torture on the way.

My complaint is mostly #3 and some #2 along with basically not needed.

Strange how B&W say they love this subplot. Is that just sick or what? Makes me think there'll be more of it.


Mike V. said...

I didn't check out the article yet and will if I have time later. But, I had a feeling it might not end there. Maybe it'll be referred to more than anything since we already got the visual.

But, I think they may love the subplot for where it inevitably ends up. Besides that one scene, which is to be determined if it was necessary or not,...I think this plot has been a very interesting twist on the books and definitely a more meaty plot for Sansa.

MJ said...

Navy - funny this is that by the time I was in we didn't wear navy blue ! My dress 'blues' were black, as was my peacoat. My brother is 7 year older and I think his dress uniform was navy blue though. Now my husband - who was in with me (is how we met) his dress blues were the cracker jack and the pants had those 13 buttons but n my brothers day the petty officers wore blue suits just like the officers and chiefs. Meant to comment on other post - yes the chiefs and master chiefs were large and in charge.