Monday, November 28, 2016

TV Discussion: Week of 11/27/2016 - 12/3/2016

Hello fellow TV Addicts! This is our weekly place to discuss all non-recapped shows. See you in the comments!

45 comments:

Anonymous said...

WW--the self healing Dolores screams 2 timelines. But what that does to ep3 starts me thinking that trusting the show could be a mistake. More later

Richard

MJ said...

Hope everyone had a great holiday !

Dr Strange - saw over the weekend. Was pretty good. Not what I expected - better then expected. Effects were off the charts good. Very inception-like in part.

This is Us - some very strange Thanksgiving traditions. LOL Didn't realize they live in Jersey either til this ep. Poor Randall ! Only wish he'd also turned to his father and said - so you knew where I was all this time and never contacted me !?! He should also be a little mad at that.

Shameless - way behind on this but watched a few. Since when was V stupid enough to go along with only giving immunizations to some of the kids to see if any ill effects ? And am I right or is Kevin giving up his parental rights ? Hmmm. Don't trust Svetlanas dad. Stopped where Deb is now being investigated by DYFS

Luke Cage - got the first 6 watched. Pretty good. Am I supposed to know all these people singing in the club ? Cause I don't. LOL The one older guy seemed very familiar though.

Anonymous said...

WW Some observations.
1. The city in the sand was the city with the Church. The one where First Gen Maeve died just after "coming alive". The one where Dolores keeps coming back to in her memory and reality. I think it's a big part of the maze. I also think the confessional transports to the a backstage area that was used by Arnold to help the robots achieve consciousness. Hence why the reputation of the maze. Of course its where MIB finds what we think is present day Dolores.
2. I am disappointed in the show's intentional obfuscation using tools like memories, timelines(maybe 3), is it a robot/human and is what you saw real or imagined. To use all of those makes you wonder if the show is becoming another Blacklist. Where there is no canon. I don't think it will become another Blacklist but it's starting to make me wonder.
3. So, we thought Bernard could be Arnold. And if the transcendence theory holds up, Arnold/Bernard can't be killed. We'll see.
4. So, we know why Ford told Dolores he wouldn't call her a friend at all. She killed his friend--Arnold. Makes me wonder why she's still walking around what happens to glitchy robots. BTW, speaking of those glitchy robots stored down below in huge number. REcall when I said it made zero sense to store them since they could be turned against the humans--well, I'm betting LARGE that Maeve is going to use those bots! And while it may be presented as a surprise it was one of the most predictable storylines.
5. More on Dolores and one of the sources of my frustration with the show--Dolores runs away without a stomach with a huge gaping wound like no big deal while Teddy gets stabbed in the shoulder and is incapacitated. Very little consistency. And before somebody says first gen vs current gen robots--there's no evidence that Dolores has had her AI moved from one to another. Another point on this is that the first gen robots were killed in the park all the time by guests by stabbing. So, it just doesn't add up.

More later.

Librarian--anybody watching?

Richard

Anonymous said...

This is US--The Randall and his Mom situation was over dramatized to the point of cheesy to me and my wife. Poor writing vs most of the rest of the show. The old tired scenario where she is trying to tell him but he has a bunch of reasons why she can't but he doesn't know it, yada, yada, yada and then him finding it out after she tried to tell him, again yada, yada yada and of course as MJ points out the total pass the Dad gets. The Dad knew where he was all this time. To me, this whole storyline was poorly written.

But, I loved the blow and the crazy Thanksgiving roasting hot dogs over the heater burner,etc. IN some ways because she was wanting to avoid family drama I could relate to my own Thanksgiving this year--lol. I also love keeping traditions and the hat was great!!!

Doe anybody see what Kevin sees in Olivia?

Richard

Mike V. said...

WW - didn't get to it last night. Holiday weekend activities extended to Sunday so I was lucky to watch Walking Dead!

Rogue One - Got my tickets at midnight last night. Servers were down again when trying to get the tix. Star Wars fandom is still at an all time high. But this movie won't do near as much as Force Awakens and no one expects it to. Previews have looked solid though. And the EW cover story was good as well.

Dr strange - still haven't seen it. Probably going to have to wait for Blu-ray. Not happy about it! Same with Fantastic Beasts too.

Shameless - Almost forgot all of that happened on the show. Good refresher. lol I didn't get to last night's episode yet but it's been better.

Luke Cage - I don't think we're supposed to know the artists in the lounge. But it's a good showcase for music on the show.

Librarian - Nope not watching.

This is Us - Well the storyline worked in our household. We were almost moved to tears for that whole Thanksgiving episode. Very true Randall should be mad at his father too. And there are justifiable reasons for not telling him either. The man was still on drugs. It was better to keep his distance. But he also clearly had an interest in his son's well being too so he wanted to be kept up to date. But the whole traditions of the past being played out in the present was pretty effective. And Kevin (that's the Smallville's Oliver Queen's name right?) working the charm on his actress friend was pretty smooth too. Nice Pie line!

Gilmore Girls - Year in the Life - My wife binged the whole series over the past couple of months. I caught a minute here or there...but I couldn't resist watching these new Netflix episodes. Got sucked in while we were doing holiday decorating. lol Anyway...I know those final 4 words if anyone wants to discuss! lol

Anonymous said...

Dr. Strange--it was better than I was expecting.

US--my wife looked it up and the actress that plays Kate has to loose weight per her contract!! I've been wondering about that. So, the surgery could be a real deal.

Also, sometimes watching this show makes me feel like not such a great Dad vs Jack. I mean Jack at Thanksgiving was great, WAY beyond normal. I did a lot of volunteer and leadership work for my kids including coaching all the time and I still feel like it's impossible to measure up to Jack--lol. I can see where some wives/mothers are going to start to develop that white knight thing of expectations--lol.

WW--Stating things from a different perspective--Ford had Bernard kill himself because Bernard tried to kill Ford. That was because Bernard couldn't be fixed and trusted. It was actually like in opposite world when Bernard was trying to gain sympathy just after trying to kill Ford! Again, why is Dolores still alive after she actually killed Arnold. And is anybody feeling bad for Bernard. Is anyone feeling bad for Ford since his best friend tried to kill him. I wonder what % of viewers have the same feelings about these actions as I do. To me, this ep put Ford in a better light, a lot better. And Bernard after trying to kill Ford deserved a death as does Dolores. But, for some reason I think I'm in a very very small %--again--lol.

IF William is MIB why does the MIB treat Dolores so badly? I've been wondering that now for a few weeks--he goes from essentially loving her to abusing her. I just read a few recaps and nobody has brought that up and yet to me it's a question that goes to one of the central storylines.

Richard


Anonymous said...

US--I think a comparison of how Jack vs Randall handles bad situations was on display too, whether or not intentional. REbecca breaking up with her parents is a HUGE deal, may not seem that way since we haven't met her parents, but the tragedy, etc should be seen as real for the family. Randall tries hard and seems a great Dad too. But, how he handles finding out about his adopted Mom and real Dad was pretty bad. Both of these situations dealt with parent related issues. Going to the Thanksgiving table and calling out your Mom while sending the kids away is not cool. I know it's meant to show the deep meaning of what he found. But seriously, the audience got that long ago. Of course I don't like drama and am more like Jack in that regard--find a way to keep destructive drama down--lol.

Richard

Anonymous said...

WW=-I have probably posted too much, but I wanted to get this down after the ep. Why is it that Maeve is able to do all she's doing without Ford's response? Shouldn't he know all about her goings on by now.

Richard

MJ said...

Us - I disagree Richard. Rebecca wasn't going to say anything til Beth (randalls wife was forcing her). I also found it moving and not over-dramatized. I'm not saying I was surprised or anything or that it was ground breaking. We all new after last week that he'd find out - but to watch how devastated he was - and to have it happen on his fave holiday - that was hard to watch. Very sad. As for Olivia - nah - see nothing in her. She's there to help Kevin develop into a grown-ass-man is my guess. LOL Gotta have some acidity in all that sweetness going around too. Also red the actress agreed to lose weight so that it would match the character. We always laughed that Hurley never lost anything on Lost. I just wish it would stop being ALL about her weight. She found a great new job - show her doing great stuff at the job and helping with that teenager. Give her another dimension already cause she is a great actress.

Librarians - I do watch but did not watch this weeks yet.

Mike V. said...

This is us - I also read about the contractually obligated weight loss. Agree with MJ that it doesn't all have to be about weight. Jack totally is Super Dad. lol Agreed MJ on the effectiveness of the story.

WW - I still haven't watched but I saw you bring up the question again about why would William start abusing Dolores. I brought this up in a previous post...it would be a change of perspective after the park has worn on him...or he was angered by something. Could be something as simple as a love triangle with Teddy and Dolores forgetting who she was again and resetting. It might drive William mad after many years of trying to make her "stick" and having to start over and over again. There's lots of ways they can go with it. But I still have to watch the latest episode to see how it developed.

I saw a headline of an EW article that says all burning questions will be answered in the finale EXCEPT for one. lol I don't know which one it is...it might be in the article. I'll wait until tomorrow to read.

MJ said...

GG - had to go before I could say - i have not watched it yet and no - do NOT want to know those stupid last 4 words. LOL The early years were great on this show - last one not as much. LOL But they waited too long to do this thing. I have no time to re-watch the whole thing and have forgotten alot. But will get to it eventually ;-D

MJ said...

Vikings - it's back on Wednesday. And Richard - there is a special after the ep called Real Vikings - don't know what it is but thought you might be interested. Also there is a recap before the episode. Thank God. LOL

Supergirl - I think we all knew the little vortex's were Barry Allen. LOL Since you don't watch Legends Mike I will share that the 2 chars that make up Firestorm found a secret room on the time ship and in it a recording from the future by a much older Barry Allen by the sound of the voice - we did not get to hear what he says but Barry says to tell no one and to keep the secret. Just in case that comes up in the cross over. Otherwise an ok ep. How great that mama Danvers can just fix J'onn. LOL Glad Luthor chick was not really bad like the rest of them - that would have been dull.

Mike V. said...

GG - Well apparently the last season Amy Sherman Palladino (creator/showrunner) wasn't involved...so this event is her statement on how she wanted to end the series. Trust me...I didn't watch ANY of the 7 seasons and I was emotionally invested just fine. lol But I'll be happy to discuss the end with you once you watch.

Vikings - oh boy!!! Yeah I might need that recap. Maybe this is good timing for Vikings....after this 4 way superhero crossover...they're all on winter break. Gotham too, but I know I'm the only one watching now. Last night's episode had some comical stuff going on that I wish I could talk about! lol

Supergirl - Yep...we knew it was Barry! Thanks for the info on Legends...I didn't realize they were starting to set this up last week! lol Mama Danvers is SUPER in her own way! She even is a model mother for children coming out across the world! lol Yep...agreed on Luthor girl.

WW - I watched Richard...have a meeting and need time to process your own comments and collect my thoughts. But right off the bat...it seems these theories have been dead on....so we should debate whether it's good to know this stuff up front or not. (i.e. if it ruined the reveal in any way) The podcast I listened to suggests that we would've figured it out anyway. Maybe/Maybe not. I don't think casual watchers would really think too much about it.

I'll read your stuff after my mtg and comment!

Anonymous said...

Vikings--I am pretty excited about it's return. And just in time as WW is wrapping up. Lots of reruns going on sometime this week too.

WW--Just keep thinking and so:
1. It doesn't make sense for Bernard who worked for Ford to have killed Elsie. Since she's trying to protect Ford's AI.
2. BTW, in case I haven't said it--multiple timelines certainly appear to me now--beyond the hint stage.
3. It's hard to believe that what were 2 central characters have been offed already.
4. It's hard to believe that Ghost Nation Indians took the security guy without Ford knowing it.
5. Back to Maeve--maybe her rebellion is part of Ford's new narrative or some other plan. It would explain why he kept those decomissioned robots in the basement. I've been thinking that it's such an obvious problem to unfold and so a weakness in the writing. But, looking at it from the opposite side is that it is intentional. And so with that, my new theory is indeed that Maeve is going to get the basement dwellers going as a part of one of Ford's plans.
6. MIBs statement that he doesn't care about Ford's narratives is telling. He thinks Ford's narratives are not nearly as deep as Arnold's work. Maybe Ford's new narrative is drastically more deep and so involves even the "off stage" arena.
7. The timing of Maeve's rebellion and the board's vote seem to be close with each other. I'm thinking made intentional by Ford. But, how he's going to use the rebellion to maintain control I haven't figured out yet. Partly because we don't know what the outside world looks like. So far his new narrative seems to involve a lot of chaotic out of bounds violence and when combined with Maeve's violence could make for some actual human deaths. The only thing I can figure out is that he makes himself out to be the hero by saving the day.

Richard

Mike V. said...


WW

1.) Yep I came to the same conclusion on all of this. But I didn’t think that was where Maeve was when she and daughter got shot and came alive. That was on some farmhouse Backstage area makes sense too.
2.) The showrunners have been pretty upfront on having figured out the entire show upfront. And it’s just how they choose to reveal the show, peel the onion…. I’m sure some may evolve over time but they know what they’re doing. I’m sure if you go back and watch after all is revealed…it’ll add up. I don’t think this is a Blacklist. That show is a mess and they were pretty transparent about that too when they decided to “work on the expanding the mythology” lol As for trickery with time…people are debating whether that was really necessary with the show. It could be a bummer if they draw out the reveal of William/MIB for the final “AHA” moment of the season. They may have not realized everyone would pick up on this stuff so easily so this would’ve been their big surprise. Pretty much the end of this episode already revealed it with Dolores saying, “William?” and Man in Black walking in. She is fully awake and now may realize who that is. Or she’s so messed up with her memories that she may think she’s back 30 years ago with William.
3.) Well now we know FORD created Bernard to represent Arnold…and he used cornerstone memories to make him have memories and behavior like Arnold. I don’t know if we know if they actually transferred Arnold’s consciousness into Bernard. Might be a reach now…but we’ll see.
4.) I think there’s still a chance Dolores is Wyatt…and yeah her killing Arnold is pretty crazy and one I did not see coming. But yeah….the bots in storage will come to play…and makes sense that maeve would do it.
5.) We don’t know what happened to cut open Dolores because she was in her memories and crossing timelines until we were with present day Dolores….we were also in 3 years of park before guests arrive Dolores….so we may find William stumble upon a very dead Dolores. Like I said…I think it will add up in the end….they’re intentionally messing with the timeline and messing with our heads…whether that is effective storytelling remains to be seen.

I still stand by my William/MIB and treatment of Dolores theory. 30 years of park experience and obsessions… I have another meeting but will write more later.

Also we should discuss the Charlotte/MIB discussion too…he was okay voting Ford out.

Anonymous said...

WW--I don't think the average viewer listens to podcasts or read theories, so they didn't know. Also, I hadn't read the theories or listened to podcasts. I read your posting and it made me think about it. I considered it heavily as a possibility, increasingly. I didn't accept it until Dolores called MIB, William, in the last ep.

To answer your question, I looked for clues about MIB/William after reading your post and it made watching more enjoyable. It aided me in watching the show in what clues to look for. EP3 threw in some intentional misrepresentation though and that bothers me more than anything written or said which might have been a spoiler.

******I'm also thinking we saw the real Arnold in speaking with Dolores sometimes.


Also, it's strange we haven't seen a 30 year younger Ford.

Richard

Anonymous said...

WW--Your #5, Dolores being cut open did not look like a memory lane tour. Looked more like a 3rd person shot involving all the characters. When she ran away and became miraculously healed I'm not sure what that was. I have considered the following:
1. It's her memories, but conflated.
2. It's a typical viewers view trying to show similar events over 2 different timelines. I think this one since it works well for the Church scenes.

Neither one is for a passive viewer. Which goes to your points on effectual story telling and enjoyable experiences.

IN comparing how this story is being told vs GOT, they're very different. One has a set of books with canon, the other has a book and movie but I don't see as much tie in. Also, GOT is relatively linear with time while this one is starting with different times. My wife hates these shows that are intentionally confusing. She wants to be entertained and to not have to work at it. She loves Hallmark Christmas movies! And so I watch them too--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

No I don’t think they do either. But this Westworld audience may be similar to a LOST audience in that people go seeking additional insight and info. But even with that I don’t think your average viewer is looking more into it than the episode itself. My wife certainly isn’t and like I said in another post…she had me watching Gilmore Girls!!! So I feel your pain on hallmark movies! Lol But sometimes sappy drama is good too.

As for you thinking about it…that’s all I mean…the fact that theory was even out there and that I mentioned it meant that it’s being discussed so when it’s revealed it could be a letdown. But I’m with you…I enjoyed looking for clues. The problem with these theories…and it was a problem with many for LOST. Some people get so convinced of a theory that when it doesn’t pay off the way they anticipate then it’s a MAJOR letdown. I might be in that camp if the William/MIB thing ISN’T true because all clues are so strongly leading to it. Lol

I guess I really need to go check this episode 3 thing again. But, I’m sure it’ll all connect when all is said and done.

*****the real Arnold speaking with Dolores. I think that was confirmed in this episode. And I had mentioned that last week as a new theory of a 3rd timeline where ACTUAL Arnold is speaking to Dolores. But yes…there was a scene with Arnold talking to Dolores in those final minute reveals. I think those clips where Bernard is talking to Dolores earlier in the season…I think most of them probably were Arnold.

We have most definitely seen a 30 year younger ford. People are raving about the CGI technology that showed a 30 year younger Hopkins. It happened several episodes ago and again just last night. You need to watch again! This is actually brought up in one of Breznican’s Rogue One stories on EW because they’re talking about the very likely possibility that they’re bringing Peter Cushing back from the dead to play Grand Moff Tarken in key scene(s) for Rogue One. Breznican is holding out hope that young Princess Leia may be in the end of the film too….Antman showed the technology was possible with Michael Douglas too…..and Civil War showed a 20 year old Tony Stark as well. I’m off track here but yeah go back or just google the Hopkins thing. It definitely happened. If I remember I’ll look for a link/clip for you.

My # 5 – Well it depends how you look at it all. I think the whole William storyline is mainly just a narrative taking place 30 years ago. …but when we follow Dolores…I think she was REMEMBERING these events from prior cycles in the present day. We saw her switching between “WW Training Period” “william period” and “present day” in those final minutes. And the fact that she didn’t have a wound anymore was evidence of that….if we revisited Dolores from William’s frame of reference she should be “mortally” wounded still.

I think both your #1 and 2 could apply in this scenario. They’re showing us multiple timelines…but also it’s Dolores remembering. The fact that in the present day she remembered WILLIAM and the Man in Black shows up at the door pretty much solidifies that.

Agreed on the passive viewer. Someone came up to me yesterday saying how confused she was and that we need to talk it through once I watch. Lol
Is there a book for Westworld too?? Or is it a novelization of the original movie? But yes…this show is definitely a CHORE. If you’re not paying attention you’re going to be confused even when things are revealed. I enjoy the chore on this one though. I know I said I want my Sawyer/Han Solo character, but maybe that’ll come. Lol

MJ said...

Blacklist - finally caught up on this. So Mr. Kaplan is staying with the mountain man ? Better then him killing her I suppose. So did Red say he was the dad ? Doesn't mean he is. Tired of that whole debate really. After this aired I kept seeing on line how secrets were revealed - no they weren't ! LOL Total psych! job. At least Kirk finally showed his spots when he stated to Liz that he wanted her stem cells. Have to laugh - two men think they are the daddy - and if both are not - well then Mama Rostova was a Ho. LOL And of course - what did he whisper? Tha Katarina is alive ? Probably.

GG - yes - ASP and her hubby did not do the final season. And it showed.

hallmark movies - hate them ! LOL Love almost any thing else that is Christmas though. yeah - i like to have shows that I don't have to retain or think about. Like my half hour shows and the procedurals I can tolerate for that purpose. Brain has to just rest some times.

Anonymous said...

WW--rewatched at lunch.
1. There were 3 versions of Ford.
The very young one that walked past Dolores going to see Arnold. A much older one when Bernard woke!! That's a big tell on the timelines. And of course the current timeline.

2. Dolores heard the word "remember" 3 different times.
A. After she fell in the woods and then got back up in the same clothes but not wounded. How can remembering make you all better and fix the clothes? Unless it was a backwards deal--is that even possible. Was her meeting MIB at the Church at the end a memory--I don't think so but something's up. This scene combined with the EP3 scene meeting William are I think critical to understanding what's going on.
B. Before entering the Church and changing into a much older dress
C. While imagining Arnold in the chair in the basement.

I don't thogoughly get A though as it relates to what happened in the prior several eps with William. If she is currently fine that could imply that all of what we saw with William was from her memory. And that her staggering out of the woods after leaving Teddy in ep 3 was the current timeline. IE, instead of staggering out of the woods to meet William in ep 3, she actually stumbled on her way to the Church and all of what we've seen between ep3 and ep9 was her memory. One of the problems with the above is that I can't recall for sure if she was wearing a dress in ep3?

3. Ford said he was planning a celebration for his new narrative as he left Bernard. Makes me wonder even moreso if that's about Maeve?


Blacklist--Yea, "who's your Daddy" is still at play but we know it's not Kerakurk. And yes her Mom is sounding more and more like a ho. If REd's not the dad then there must have been a 3rd man involved. Yes, Red did kind of say he was her Dad but there was later deniability.

Richard


Mike V. said...

WW -

1.) You're right. They showed a younger than present day (but still older) Ford when he created Bernard too. I forgot about that one when I was commenting above.

2.) As I've already mentioned..I don't think she was magically healed. I think they were messing with the timelines again and it's based on PRESENT DAY Dolores re-experiencing her memories....so her "brain" was shifting from one cycle (timeline) to another. Her meeting MIB in church is present day I think. (if we think that Ford didn't demolish the church but excavated it instead) MIB had just told Charlotte or someone he knows where he has to go....and then went to the church. And surely that church is the end of the maze right?

I think the "DRESS" timeline was the "training period" that Ford refers to and that we've seen clips of in Dolores's memory....the 3 years of hosts living in the park before a guest even entered.

There may have been 3 different timelines but I think they're as follows Wounded Dolores (William timeline), Dress Dolores (training timeline), Present Day Dolores wearing same clothes as wounded Dolores...who imagined Arnold in the chair.

I think I need to recheck that ep 3 with Teddy. That's the part I'm missing and don't remember. But I know episode 1 we did see Dolores in present day wearing the dress and meeting up with Teddy and eventually MIB. Actually...I may just wait until the finale and then maybe rewatch the whole season with the knowledge of what's what.

3.) hmmmm....well if we're to think Ford and Arnold had disagreements on the hosts...wouldn't Maeve's revolution be more aligned with Arnold's thinking than Ford's? He does seem pretty omniscient in this story though so it wouldn't surprise me if that's part of his "plan".

Anonymous said...

WW--3
For a while I thought that Maeve was doing what Arnold wanted and was leading a rebellion that wound challenge Ford. And that could still be true. But the following makes me wonder if my recent theory is more accurate.
1. The basement dwellers that make more sense to destroy.
2. The hacienda scene where Ford had contact with every one of the hosts, without even looking at them. He seems omniscient as you say.
3. Him mentioning the backdoors that others don't know about.
4. His desire to tear everything up and start over with a new narrative.
5. Wanting to do something spectacular.
6. His ability to maintain control over previous uprisings.
7. He said in this ep that the hosts continue to try to reach a sentient state. He expects it and so what Maeve is doing is expected, as far as becoming sentient.
8. With what happened with Bernard he has to wonder about what happend with Maeve since he was checking her out after her problems. Especially since she has become sentient before and Ford saw this.

He also said that humans will always disappoint the hosts. That could be applied to either direction really.


BTW, I seem to recall the Church's steeple sticking up out of the sand in a prior ep? Do you recall that? They also referenced a city buried in sand. The city in the last ep was on the river between the bluffs in what I want to say was the exact area where she was at the end of another ep with William, but the city wasn't there. This is after they went through the Ghost Nation area and left the bad guy. The bad guy even said that nobody comes back from there.

I think where Maeve was on the maze symbol was in front of the same Church. Dolores said that she has found the center of the maze and I think it seems it is the Church with the elevator down to where things started. The is the same area where the MIB showed up after he said he's figured it out. So, a great set up for the finale given the MIB has seemed to have fulfilled his quest.

Richard

Mike V. said...

WW

I’ll start with the Church. Yeah we have seen William and Dolores in front of the steeple in the sand. We have seen visions of Dolores in front of that church/town during the training era….and then the next moment with the steeple in the sand. (but that was technically 30 years ago if we’re going with the timeline theories)…..But then we saw the steeple with Ford in present day…but we also saw him digging with that giant machine. We know he was destroying parts of the park to make room for something else…but I suggested above maybe he excavated the church again which would make sense since Dolores and MIB are there in present day. I dunno…it’s all still a little sketchy.

3 -
1.) yeah they have to come into play and that would be a good way for it to happen since they’re all “woke” theoretically.
2.) Right…but Ford being able to control the hosts seems to go against Maeve’s ambitions and all of those hosts that have become conscious. And we’ve seen that Maeve cannot be controlled. At least not by Bernard.
3.) True
4.) Right…though I still wonder what’s going on with that church.
5.) Mm hmm
6.) So you’re suggesting consciousness but within limits he can control?
7.) Fair point
8.) Ok you convinced me. Lol

I thought maeve being on the center of the maze was more symbolic than anything. I don’t think that was the church. That was outside her “house” in her previous “role” in the park. But yes I agree the Church seems to be the center of the maze and whatever Arnold was doing underground there. (obviously he was messing with the consciousness of these hosts)

Anonymous said...

WW--it's also occured to me that when Maeve goes into the basement she will find Bernard, likely "dead". I wonder how that might affect things??

I think the Church is key and is the center. Especially since it's connected to the area of the lab where things started and where Dolores killed Arnold. But, the steeple being buried and then not and yet them referring to the city that was buried in sand combined with the ending of the last ep all adds up to some intentional confusion, at least to me.

BTW, how did Dolores hear the words remember from a dead Arnold/Bernard? IN all 3 cases there was NOBODY around her when "remember" was said. I'm still hanging on to my transcendence theory--lol.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Just to be clear, MIB while there with TEddy and the girl was talking about the city that was buried in the sand in regards to the center. Then he walks up to a Church that is not buried which we believe to be the center.

Is the above accurate, I think so? It sure doesn't make sense.

OH well, going home for now.

Richard

Mike V. said...

WW

Is Maeve planning to go to the basement? Is that basement area in the same location as the host storage locker? I guess that makes sense. But yeah “dead” in quotes makes sense. I wonder who would revive him. Maybe Maeve?
Agreed on the church confusion. It’s intentional and hopefully will be cleared up in the finale. BTW…I read the article that said “all questions people have will be answered except for one”…..the one thing that won’t be answered is “what happens next”. So that seems to imply the timeline stuff/church stuff will all be revealed….potentially even where they are. Ford kept referring to the outside world. Seems to imply there is a functioning outside world so maybe they don’t even need to reveal that. But the fact that Maeve wants to leave seems to imply they will. I’m guessing they’ll end with her escape or confirming the William/MIB are the same person. Might even be a HATCH season 1 finale (LOST) thing where she gets out the door but then the credits roll.

Fair point on the transcendence theory…unless the voice is happening in her head…like it’s build into that backdoor code stuff. It’s some alternate code trying to make its way to the forefront and forcing her to relive all these past experiences and drawing her to the church.

Yes…I believe that is the case with the church (at least I think we have a common understanding)….we also saw in an early episode that Ford was working on his next big thing and then the camera panned to the buried church and the credits rolled. That’s why I think he excavated it.

I’m going home too!

Anonymous said...

WW--so in flipping channels last night I ended up watching part of ep8 where MIB was talking. Picked up on some things.
1. He was married for 30 years, where have we heard that number before. Seems more confirmation about MIB/William
2. He basically said he owned Delos and other places. The way he said it was like they were worlds.
3.It seems people in the outside world have no purpose or reason to pursue anything.

So after MIB was talking about the outside world it made me wonder why Ford had to make everything including blades of grass. Taken together with what Dolores thinks about why people want to come to the park it sounds as if the outside world or worlds is bleak. I mean why do you have to make blades of grass unless it's not natural anymore.

Richard

Mike V. said...

WW
1.) Yep, I picked up on the 30 years talk too. Lots of 30 year references throughout the season. I’m not sure how they could not be the same person at this point.
2.) Interesting. I know he owns a company or foundation, but did they confirm it’s DELOS? We also know he’s a “shareholder” or someone of importance because Charlotte needed his vote. We know his father-in-law was CEO of the foundation….so that would be interesting if that foundation was actually DELOS….and William was getting a first hand look at the company he was marrying into.
3.) I didn’t pick up on that. Sounded like he lived a normal life outside of the park.

That’s a pretty interesting take and good insight on Ford’s construction. Yeah that could be really interesting of the outside world is bleak. Or they’re on another planet like Mars where you have to live inside a bubble. Again…so many routes that it can go and all equally interesting!

Mike V. said...

Flash - Really showing the larger repercussions of Flashpoint. Though, does anyone else (and by anyone I mean MJ lol) get the impression that this whole thing will end up not being entirely Barry's fault? Victor Garber's sudden memory flashes seemed to indicate something else is happening to change time. And Arrow seemed to be putting out in the world that it's not Barry's fault. I don't know how Cisco will ever forgive Barry unless they find out these time ripples are coming from something else. or if they're able to correct it. And I didn't realize the Legends also are time travelers? Other than that...super team up is pretty cool.

This is Us - Pretty cool use of drugs in the episode (at least I think I heard a reference to Shrooms, but didn't see Randal take them. Was multi-tasking lol) to have Jack and Randal share some important conversations. Was a cool perspective to show older Randal inside a flashback. Kevin sleeping with the American girl who just had a niece was pretty funny...but not sure if his relationship with the actress girl is over. Loved the BREXIT comment. lol Mandy Moore had some good acting material in the episode....she's pretty nutso with her thought process. They threw the twist out there that she doesn't want to lose Randall if his parents are actually perfectly fine people. And poor Randal's actual dad...he wrote a book of poems and was so excited to meet his son. I'm sure there's still more of this story to evolve. Unless that's the last time she ever saw him.

Shield - Watched. Not really much to comment on. They built an interdimensional portal with their robot...and the robot is all out in the open now. Mack was Ghostrider for a few minutes and he seems affected.

iZombie - Chugging along with this when I can. I'm on the Magician episode right now. And we found out that Liv and Major cannot "do the deed" without spreading the zombieness lol

Mike V. said...

WW - Saw a meme on Facebook yesterday and the captcha on this blog reminded me. there was a checkbox that said "I am not a robot" and then just a picture of Bernard looking at a computer dumbfounded. lol Probably funnier to see than explain!

MJ said...

Lucifer - know that no one watches but this has turned into a very interesting show.

Flash - cute how they had Supergirl say everyone's name for the tv audience who does not watch all shows. Who is the Arrow chick with the Robin mask ? I did NOT like that Iris and Barry's future might be changed. Although just because the article in future isn't written by her doesn't mean they are not toghether I suppose. No - I was not getting the vibe that Barry was not soley responsible. Hmmm. Though it is odd that Stein is only slowly remembering this daughter. As for Oliver - he's saying don't blame him not that he didn't cause it. He's telling Barry to give himself a break. But harsh way to tell Digg though. True enough about Cisco - I just figured they'd someone restore the whole thing and Barry will be off the hook. Legends - yeah - last year the met a Time Lord and it is his ship they use. Time Lord was merely ok but the big bad was horrible and 2 characters that are not gone were pretty horrible. This season much better. More in line with the fun of Flash and Supergirl. Also on Arrow - why did they kick Katie Cassidy (black canary) to the curb ? i think I read that she will be on something this year as the canary. Didn't realize tonights ep was such a big one for Arrow!

iZombie - jeez I don't remember that about Liv and Major. I'm sure I was not happy. LOL. Hmm - has Liv dated the guy yet who winds up being a big surpise on who he is ? LOL Can't say more.

Mike V. said...

Lucifer - I had originally planned on recording that last year and just never did. lol

Flash - Don't know who robin mask girl is. Yeah...the article thing is interesting. Never really considered the future might be changed too. There's a chance that this Savitar person is altering the timeline and just happened to coincide with Flashpoint. It's a stretch, but maybe not. Oh I know what oliver is saying...I just thought that might be the show kind of hinting that some kind of redemption/way out is coming. Yeah...maybe Barry will be able to restore it. But I'm sure it will be related to getting rid of Savitar/Alchemy. Gotcha on legends...maybe I'll catch up on this one next offseason. lol Hmm...wasn't sure if Katie Cassidy was killed off of Arrow. But if she's going to be something else then maybe not. Looks like she might be in tonight's episode though in a vision of sorts. And yeah..it's the 100th ep right?

iZombie - Guess that means they resolve that issue! lol And no don't know about Liv dating a guy who winds up being a surprise. Unless you mean last season when she was dating a fellow zombie??

Anonymous said...


ESPN continues loosing subscribers big time. I have quit watching due to their becoming so political. Sports used to be a place you could go to get away from politics. I can't even tell you who has played in the last several Monday night games.


http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2016/11/30/espn-loses-half-million-subscribers/

Richard

MJ said...

ESPN - for me the issue is that the hardly have any games on that I want to see. Even Sunday night has not been great. But then again alot of teams that usually do well and get bigger audiences are not stellar this year.

Arrow - I thought you watched this show ? LOL Robin mask is his sister - got that from Arrow ep obviously. And blonde guy confirmed in ep that he killed Black Canary. Knew from headlines that his mom was gone too - and of course dad. I did watch the first season of this show. Strange ep - I know it was their 100th but it was more about their show then the whole crossover thing. Which kinda was not great for non-Arrow fans.

Shield - agree on all you said

Mike V. said...

Arrow - Nope! Never did. I think I asked you if it was worth watching and you said no lol Right I figured out Robin mask girl too. Yeah it was an interesting hour to watch having only experienced the Arrow crew from the Flash episodes. But it worked. Actually those dream sequences kinda filled in all the details I needed. I'm confused though how Black Canary might be showing up in another show if she was killed. But, I'm sure there are ways! lol I saw John Barrowman in there too from Torchwood...I remember him being cast on Arrow but it seems like they brought back a greatest hits of characters for their 100th. That's kinda cool.

ESPN - can't tell you the last time I watched the channel either.

Vikings - Lots of "bedroom activities" at the center of focus in this episode. Every son of Ragnar was getting some! lol For a second I thought Ragnar and Lagertha were going to have a 1 night rekindling of their flame. Of course in the backdrop we learned of 2 upcoming ventures...Roman Empire and England. And the bromance of Ragnar and Floki had a moment to shine too. lol

MJ said...

Timeless - good ep. Wonder if it is true that that woman was a big help with nasa problems and got no credit. Did they have to kill the Nassa guy ? They could have tied him up. The show would have us belive Flynn isn't bad - that he's trying to do good - so then stop having him kill innocent people. And then they kill a plumber - like they couldn't get a plumber uniform before traveling back ? And where do they get the period clothing from ? Loved that they used Agent Mulder - and want to say Supernatural has been doing that for 12 years !!! And if the goal is to stop Rittenhouse from getting a time machine - they destroy them both and you are done.

Shield - jeez - it just came back from being off for weeks and next week is the mid-season finale. Didn't realize that. Knew Aida would not be good - but didn' think it would go this way. You hear about the 8 episode series called Inhumans ? It's for Imax but will come to tv after that.

Arrow - maybe it was this episode I heard about then with Black Canary coming back. thoug she wasn't the Canary in this ep. I did know Barrowman was a bad guy - but no deets. Also - who were a couple of other Arrow baddies there and I have no idea who they were. One was robot like or something. LOL I just went with it.

Vikings - haven't watched but wait - every son of Ragnar getting some ? They are mostly kids.! LOL

Mike V. said...

Shield - Yeah November was a tough month for them with the election and awards shows. I heard about Inhumans...I think the first 2 eps will be IMAX. I guess this will be this year's Agent Carter and SHIELD will be back in March?

Arrow - It probably was this episode. Not sure about the arrow baddies. I think Neil McDounagh (sp) was this season's baddie...or maybe last season. The guy in the suit kinda looks like Deathstroke which is a Batman baddie but maybe shared by Arrow.

Vikings - I think you're forgetting about the time jump at the end of the mid-season finale!

Mike V. said...

SOA Spinoff - It's coming......

http://deadline.com/2016/12/sons-of-anarchy-spinoff-mayans-mc-pilot-order-kurt-sutter-elgin-james-fx-1201862850/

MJ said...

Vikings - ah that's right ! Ragnar has been gone for years as it turned out. And they jipped us with he whole Rollo/Ragnar battle. LOL

SOA - soooo not going to watch that one. Barely cared about the mayans during SOA. LOL Strangely that's how I felt when I heard about the Saul spinoff - but this time I think I am right.

Legends - you watch ? Don't want to say anything til I know you did.

Anonymous said...

This is US--A solid ep. And thankfully KEvin sees what Olivia really is. Although, I think we'll see her again. Randal triping was funny and an interesting way to bring Jack into it. I thought the ending with the kids at the car while Randal delivered the message was pretty good. LOL, did you see the writer sticking her head out of the rear window.

Vikings--Well, I've known all along that Rollo and Ragnar weren't related and lived in different timelines. I've kind of gone along with it since the show was pretty solid otherwise. And it was foretold what Rollo would be.

I think they used this ep to establish a relationship between the audience and the sons. Since the sons will carry the show going forward. At least until it's a new set of sons,etc. The Viking era covered something like 3 centuries, so lots of families/leaders. Lief ERicson come to mind--lol? I watched the mid season break ep, the Ragnar special, the actual half season premiere and the 'real Vikings" ep. His sons do great things, especially Ivar and Bjorn. It's going to be interesting if they follow Rollo and his family going forward. Especially since they change the face of Europe over a longer time span. GoT can be related to some of Rollo's ancestors.

I am extremely disappointed with how they've decided to take Lagertha. So much I could say but it doesn't do the Vikings legacy nor the character justice. If they keep trying to shove that stuff down my throat, I'll just pass and move on to something else. I've got lots of books on the subject.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Vikings--don't forget about Finehair. I'm sure we'll see him again.

Richard

MJ said...

Legends - so the reason Stein has a daughter was the talking to that he gave his younger self ? LOL Oliver/Supergirl was amusing. But Cisco/Fleicity was even funnier. Damn - I am going to have to see Princess Bride. It's been referenced several times lately. A little lame the way Cisco now understands what Barry is up against now and sort of forgives him - but whatever. The cross over was fun.

Vikings - i don't remember who Finehair is. Is that Keamy from Lost/Fet from Strain ?

Mike V. said...

Vikings - I don't remember Finehair either. I mean I'm sure I do but can't place him. Don't think it's Keamy. Yep, every show has to meet quotas now Richard! We're seeing it in our superhero shows too. lol Good write up on what the episode sets up. I agree.

SOA - Yep...I'm out.

Legends - I watched! Good ep! Gotta love the Brandon Routh/Superman inside joke when he said Kara looked like his cousin. lol Yep....Stein had his own interference with time outside of Barry. Yes...you MUST see Princess Bride. Though, I did show my wife it when we got together and I don't think she had the same appreciation that I did growing up with it. But it's hilarious and there's so many stars in it that you know and love. Yeah the Cisco/Barry reconciliation is a bit hard to swallow. I mentioned I didn't know how they'd ever get over that the other day....and it was pretty weak! lol but overall the 4 episode crossover worked well!

MJ said...

Legends - yeah Brandon Routh's line was hysterical.

Anonymous said...

Vikings--Finehair is Harold, the other King that went with Ragnar into Paris last year. Aslaug told him that he would have to defeat Ragnar to be King of their realm. I find the actor too small to be a Viking--lol.

Keamey is the mystical character, some say Odin.

Do you guys get the feeling Ragnar's not long for this world?

How long do you think Lagertha or ASlaug will be around once Ragnar's time us up?

ONe reason I"m really disliking the Lagertha stuff is that the actress is a legit blackbelt. You may recall my comparing her to GoT Christine. And why in the world they would fall into the cliche of a strong woman being lezzie is beyond me. She's already a major target as an Earl and realistically would have been dethroned by now. This just makes an unrealistic story go down the crazy road.

Richard