Monday, June 16, 2014

Game of Thrones: Season 4 Episode 10 - The Children


Hello fellow Westerosians, Essosians, Children of the Forest and all other creatures north of the Realm!  Welcome to our season 4 finale coverage of Game of Thrones!  WOW, that is how you end a fantastic TV season!  Of course, with the finale of A Storm of Swords, this season practically wrote itself.  They captured a lot of the essence of those final pages of the book in this episode, they captured some new for television encounters, but they left out a couple things that I was pretty surprised about.  The fact that they were left out is starting to give me an idea of storylines they may cut out of the show all together due to trying to compress the next 2 books into possibly 1 season.  Rumor has it that the show will only go 7 or 8 seasons regardless of the status of the final 2 (or more) books on the way.  So, things need to be cut. Characters, storylines, etc...  Anyway, we can debate that a little bit in the recap and more in the comments.  But until then, let's get this show on the road!

Spoiler Disclaimer:  I have read all 5 books of A Song of Ice and Fire.  I am diligent in trying not to spoil the TV Only Viewers.  I will note all spoilers with a Spoiler Warning, and will most likely save them for the comments of this thread.  I do, however, like to compare events from the book with events that resemble the books on the show.  This could be difficult in this recap because certain things were cut out of key events that I'm not sure if they plan to cover them!   I'll be careful.  Let's go!

First off, here are links to EW's coverage of the finale:

DISCUSSION POINTS

Battle of Castle Black Conclusion
  • Well, we debated a lot last week how far we'd get into the Battle with the way things ended last week.  They chose to continue the battle to conclusion in the beginning 15 minutes of the episode which was an awesome way to handle it!  Jon went to talk to Mance in a great scene discussing Mance's true intentions.  We kind of already knew them but it was nice to hear it again.  They drank to their falling and almost had a mutual respect for each other.  We've debated Kit Harrington's acting a lot recently, but I thought he held his own against Ciaran Hinds.  I imagine that's a daunting prospect.  
  • Of course, if my recollection is correct they left some key developments out of Mance's story here that could be important for future seasons (if they're going to cover it).  They may just be saving it for next season so I'll shut up! 
  • Mance caught on that Jon was there to kill him, but also had a feeling Jon wouldn't be able to do it as he was trying to negotiate a peaceful transfer of passage for the wildlings to hide behind the wall from the white walkers.  Seems reasonable to me! 
  • But alas, their conversation was interrupted by the assault of thousands of soldiers on horses.  Great aerial CGI shots on a TV budget showing the sacking of the Wildling army.  Who has come to the North's aid?  DUH people, Stannis Baratheon!   They only talked about it in the season 3 finale!  Alas, I'm being sarcastic.  The book readers were actually surprised when Davos used the North's plea for help as a reason to stay alive at the end of season 3, because it would eliminate the surprise of Stannis's arrival at the wall in season 4.  But, it was a whole "out of sight, out of mind" concept that they went with.  Most people forgot about Stannis as he was trying to get troops and funding in Braavos, and as Melissandre, Shireen and Selyse prepared for an "unspoken" journey.   It was all setup for their arrival at The Wall.  The rightful King Stannis Baratheon of the 7 Realms.
  • There was a great scene here between Mance, Jon, Stannis and Davos and Jon flexing his Stark muscles in finding a way to keep Mance alive and Mance refusing to kneel even if it meant death.  
  • Jon warned Stannis that the dead should be burned before nightfall as they would come back to haunt all of them.  The same was done for the soldiers of the Night's Watch.  We got a shot of Grenn's corpse among the fallen before Jon set the pyre ablaze.  The camera focused on Shireen and Selyse to let us know they were there.  But more importantly, it showed Mellisandre checking out Jon Snow with great interest.  What does it all mean?  We shall see.  But the game board has definitely been reset with this episode.  Pieces have moved in a big way as they did in the books.  This was just the first of them.  
  • There was the final goodbye for Ygritte as well.  Jon spoke with Tormund for awhile.  Tormund complained about Maester Aemon healing him.  Jon said there weren't any plans to kill him, but he doesn't know what Stannis has in mind for him either.   But then they spoke of Ygritte's love for Jon and how she deserves to be honored North of the Wall.  Jon brought her past the Wall and said his goodbyes before setting her on fire as well.  RIP again Ygritte! 
There was a key moment from Book 3 that was not covered in Jon Snow's arc in this season.  So, my guess is it will be covered in episode 1 of next season.  We assumed Stannis's arrival at the wall would be covered last week and then this key moment would be his sendoff for this season.   But, once that didn't happen, this went down as I pretty much expected.  Anyway, that's just a tease.  I'm not going to spoil! 

Mereen
  • Definitely into book 5 territory with Dany at this point. But we have already been there with her extended stay in Mereen.   Many speculated this is the final scene we'd get with her this season due to the themes of not being able to control her dragons throughout the season.  
  • They showed Dany holding court attending to 2 of her subjects.  One and elderly freed slave who wanted to go back into slavery.  He explained how the young slaves are rejoicing at their freedom, but the elderly slaves know no other ways to live in the world.  He actually admired his master and the master's children and requested to be employed by the master.   Dany didn't expect this turn of events but didn't want to cause anyone displeasure at the same time.  She allowed the man to go under a 1 year contract with his master which pleased him.   Ser Barristan warned Dany that the masters would take advantage of this precedent.  A possible tease for things to come next season. 
  • Then, a man who did not speak the common tongue arrived in tears carrying something in a shroud.  It didn't take long to realize he was mourning the loss of a child.  And it was a direct result of Drogon, Dany's untamable dragon with whom she is most fond of.  Drogon had already set some sheep on fire earlier in the season, and now he's gone and burned a 3 year old girl!  Dany was horrified.  Worse yet, Drogon is nowhere to be found.  But, her other "CHILDREN" were and she did what she had to do.  She took them to the catacombs, chained them and locked them in there until she could figure out what to do with them.  She was clearly horrified that she had to lock her children away, but she was left with no other choice until she learned How to Train her Dragons.  (If only she could watch those movies in this realm of men)  

Jaime/Cersei/Tywin
  • Cersei and Tywin rekindled their debate about marriage to Loras.  Tywin said that it would happen soon after Tommen and Margaery wed.  Cersei refused to agree and said it would not happen.  She referred back to Blackwater and how she was willing to kill Tommen with poison before she'd let anyone else take him.  Her resolve is still as strong as Tywin is clearly trying to take him for his own too.  She threatened to tell the realm the truth about her children and her relationship with her brother.   Charles Dance's reaction to learning that the rumors were true was nothing short of brilliant.  
  • Cersei then went to Jaime who was in the Gold Cloak's main chamber where the all important book of their accomplishments is held.  A sacred room, a sacred book.  This was symbolic indicating that Jaime still wants to do some good in this world.  But, enter Cersei with news of her defiance against their father.  She told him the truth, they can stop living a lie.  She chooses Jaime.  Jaime pushed her off, but then she kissed Jaime's golden hand (to which she previously was disgusted at).  This turned on Jaime more than anything and he took her in that sacred room.  It's not a sept, but this time it was clearly consensual.   Jaime asked "what if someone catches us?"  Cersei responded, I don't care.    
  • And that my friends, bookends Alex Graves' other episode with the alleged rape.  It was such a deliberate mirroring of the other scene that it had to be intentional.  Cersei was disgusted by the gold hand, then Jaime was furious and took her by force.  He responded with "I don't care" when she was worried people would catch them.  They were in the SACRED Sept when that happened.   Here, Cersei is the aggressor and Jaime is turned on by the kissing of his missing hand.  The same lines were said here.   So, it would seem there was always a plan to pay that scene off later on in the season.   This may be why the showrunners kept tight lipped on the situation.   I'm sure people will still question Alex Graves' comments earlier in the season and the scene in general.  But, the only thing I had required at the time was for it to be addressed in some way later on in the season.  This is a direct follow-up to that scene.   
  • Of course, it's also a huge departure from the books.  They're ending this season on good terms.  Granted, and this is getting ahead of things, if Cersei finds out Jaime had anything to do with Tyrion's escape that could absolutely change.  But there was additional fuel to the fire in the books that was removed from the show.  We'll get to that.   
  • Oh yes, there is also the scene with The Mountain and Qyburn, the fallen Maester.  He claims to know how to keep The Mountain alive against Grand Maester Pycelle's expert opinions.  Cersei orders Pycelle to leave the premises and gives Qyburn the okay to do whatever he needs to do.   If you forget, Qybrun is the man that fixed Jaime's wound at Harrenhal and accompanied him to King's Landing.   I forgot to mention, Oberyn Martell "THE RED VIPER" had poisoned the tip of his blade which is what put Gregor in his current state.  They kind of showed them wiping something onto the blade before their combat.  They didn't call him a Viper for nothing! 

North of the Wall
  • Once us book readers saw the name of this episode we wondered if "THE CHILDREN" referred to Bran's storyline.  It shocked us though because it pretty much takes his story to the end of his book 5 arc.  So, we have no idea what's going to come next!   (Note: I think Children refers to MANY children of Westeros and Essos thematically, including dragons.  But this one is most on the surface)
  • Bran and crew push on north through the rough wintery conditions.  Jojen is struggling and Meera is afraid they won't make it.  Then alas, the heart tree is ahead.  They make their way to the tree, and the dead begin to rise from the snow and attack them.  These dead skeletons should be considered the same as the dead that attacked Jon in Castle Black in season 1.  They were wights activated by the White Walkers.  This was very similar to the books in that Bran took over Hodor to fight them off.  But this was very different from the books in that the wights were able to claim Jojen Reed's life.  He is still very much alive in the books.   The showrunners explained (in the link I posted) that this just seemed like the right thing to do.  Jojen sacrificing his life to get Bran to where he needed to go and that it wouldn't have seemed realistic if the wights didn't get one of them.  Of course we are talking about humans fighting zombies so I'm not sure what's realistic about that!   But alas, RIP Jojen.  
  • Of course, there was no way any of them were going to make it out of there alive if it wasn't for one of the Children of the Forest coming to their aid with magical fireballs!  I believe it was a girl and she said that the First Men called them the Children.  She assisted the rest of them in getting into the tree.  The wight's that followed exploded upon entrance.   The child explained "The power that moves them is powerless here."  Interesting, right?  I don't even think we understand what powers them in the books yet either.  
  • But we do have Bran meeting the 3 eyed raven in person in the books.  And it's one of the last things he does.  The man said that he has been watching all of them all of their lives.  He has 1000 eyes in one.  The hour is late, Jojen died so Bran could find what he lost.   He admitted that Bran will never walk again, but he will fly.  Bran has gotten to his ultimate destination.  But, they didn't explain what he's doing there yet.  That is really all that's left of his book story and I'm sure it will be covered in the beginning of season 5.  
  • Though, knowing what he's doing there, I can kind of guess how they might use his story in the future.  Or, they may start to go completely off book.  I don't blame the writers here for advancing his story so far.  There really were not many Bran chapters in the books and they stretched it out as long as they could.  I always loved his chapters in the book, and in the show most people have seen them as afterthoughts.  But, I think it's definitely more engaging on the page than it has been here.   Anyway, I can't say much else so just stay tuned! 

Brienne/Arya/Podrick/Hound
  • This was the largest departure in this episode from the books.  I might even suggest it was the largest EVER departure.  Arya never came in contact with Brienne.  But, their meeting was absolutely spellbinding.  Arya talked to her with great interest as a woman who didn't resemble a typical woman.  She was good with a sword.  Her sword has a name (of course Arya doesn't know it's part of her father's sword).  Arya's sword has a name.  Brienne seemed to be mutually respectful of Arya as well.  
  • Of course, the pleasantries stopped when the Hound and Podrick entered the conversation.  Pod recognized Sandor Clegane, and Brienne was able to put 2 and 2 together that this was Arya Stark.  She spoke to how she swore an oath to bring Arya back to her mother and protect her.  The Hound brought up some great points here.  Basically, everyone is dead and HE is looking after her now.  Arya just seemed to have an "I don't care what happens here" look about her.  Maisie Williams was absolutely awesome in this episode, by the way.  Such a great young actress.  
  • Anyway, Brienne and The Hound's battle of words escalated until Brienne unleashed Oathkeeper.  The Hound knew that the handle was Lannister gold and though she was there to cash in on his bounty.  The fight they had was, I don't use this word much for the fear of it losing its meaning, EPIC!!!  Lots of great hits on both sides and come on.  Brienne bit the Hound's ear off!!  So crazy.  Of course, it ended with Brienne punching Sandor off a cliff.  
  • Meanwhile Arya hid out of sight from Brienne as she did not want to tag along on some other pointless journey.  Her family is dead as far as she knows.  But, she did come back to the dying Hound.  They had an amazing goodbye scene where he pretty much ends up begging her to mercy kill him like he had done to people they came across earlier in the season.  It was poetic justice.  She could mark another one off her list.   But, Arya just leaves him there begging for death.   Great great scene.  
If this is what we have in store for future book changes, we are in good hands.  This was handled brilliantly.  The Hound is gravely injured in the books too (at that tavern they were at in the beginning of this season).  Eventually the infection takes hold.  Us Book readers thought that him getting bit a few episode back would lead to the same result.  But, this was even better.  In both scenarios, Arya leaves him begging for death.  I should note that in both scenarios we never see The Hound actually die.  It is theorized in the books that he's still alive and that we may have even seen him again.  But, since the books is by Point of View, there is a character's description that matches The Hound, but we are still not sure if it is him.   It is very interesting though that The Mountain is in a dying state and The Hound, his brother, is also in a similar state.  And both of their death/recoveries are shrouded in mystery in the books.   

Tyrion
  • Most book readers assumed this would be the 2nd to last or last season of the season.  And boy it's a doozy!  Jaime, not being able to let his brother die, worked with Varys to help Tyrion escape his cell.   They say their goodbyes to each other but pretty much leave on good terms. 
  • I have to make a sidenote, and you'll see this in GRRM's article above also.  There is a huge conversation between them that was cut out of the story here and I don't see how they could add it now.  Basically, Jaime admits to playing a part in the grandest hoax ever.  Tyrion's first wife actually was not a whore, but Tywin only wanted Tyrion to think so.  And Jaime played along with based on his father's wishes.  This pretty much made Tyrion rethink his entire life.  That woman actually loved him.  He also lashed back at Jaime telling him that Cersei has been sleeping around with other Lannister relatives (i.e. Lancel Lannister their cousin) among other people he just suspected.   It was a pivotal moment in the books and it's just absent here.  It fueled Tyrion's arrival into Tywin's bed chamber.  
  • Granted, it wasn't necessary to have there.  Tyrion already has enough disdain for his father for sentencing him to death among the many other awful things he's told him and done to him over the years of his life.  So, he went into the chamber and found Shae in Tywin's bed looking for Tywin "her lion".  She sees Tyrion and reaches for a knife to either kill him or defend herself with.  It's unclear.  In the book, Shae is far more unredeemable a character (as GRRM explains in his interview as well) and doesn't give 2 craps about Tyrion.  So, here book readers questioned how this scene would go down.   Both book and TV show end the same way.  Tyrion is emotionally betrayed by Shae and he strangles her to death with a gold chain.  RIP Shae.   I think it was still effective, but it certainly makes more sense in the books.   Though, I think it would've made even more sense in the TV show if Jaime and Tyrion had their discussion about his first non-whore wife Tysha.  
  • Tyrion then doesn't know what to do, but eyes a crossbow on the wall.  He grabs it and heads down the hall to the privy where Tywin is in his most vulnerable state.  I'll just say it, the man is taking a dump.   Tywin tries to politically maneuver his way out of the situation by saying meaningful things like, "yes I always have wanted you dead, but I wasn't really going to execute you.  You're my son, you're a Lannister"   Then Tyrion moves the discussion on to how he killed Shae.  Tywin keeps referring to her as a whore which hurts every time he says it.  (again, more meaningful with the Jaime conversation but still effective)   Tyrion moves on to Joffrey implying his father knew he couldn't have killed him.  Tywin keeps demanding they move this conversation somewhere else and probably calls Shae a whore again.  And Tyrion just looses the arrow into his father.  "You're no son of mine!" Tywin exclaims.  Tyrion retorts that he's always been his son and shoots him a 2nd time for good measure.  RIP Tywin Lannister.  The legacy you leave behind is one helluva mess! 
  • Tyrion flees the scene and Varys is there to meet him.  "What have you done?", he asks.  Varys talks to how he has brought Tyrion this far and essentially to trust him.  He puts him in a box and loads him onto a ship.  The last time we saw Varys with a box he was ready to get revenge on the man from Essos that cut him.  Is Tyrion heading East?  Well, I could tell you but that might be spoilerish.   Varys is about to head back into the capital, but the bells of the Red Keep start ringing indicating something awful has happened.  Varys boards the ship and flees as well.  

Final moments
Many of us expected a different coda to the season.  Its absence makes me think that it might not happen at all.  But, in case they open next season with it, I'll keep my mouth shut.  Instead, we have the triumphant Game of Thrones theme playing as Arya rides her horse to a harbor.  She wants passage to the North.  The man says she does not want to go there.  He is heading to Braavos anyway.   Oh wait a minute.  She has a coin that will have any Braavosian helping her in a heartbeat thanks to Jaqen H'gar!  She shows the man the coin and says "Valar Marghoulis" (or however that's spelled to indicate All Men Must Die - the theme of this season).   He grants her passage and responds with "Valar Dohaeris" (all men must serve).   Arya begins her journey to Braavos far away from the drama she's been facing in Westeros.  Why is she going there?  One can speculate, but it's just better to stay quiet until next season!  But, we'll be rooting for her because she is awesome!! 

Crazy episode, right?  It was really good.  Of course, being a book reader I do dislike some of the stuff that was cut.  I think I made that clear.  I apologize for tainting your TV enjoyment with the additional details from the book that may not even be in play here.  But, the 3rd book was so good in the series that I didn't want any of it to be missing.  Some of this stuff being absent makes me wonder what shape season 5 will take.  I've mentioned before, we are now in both book 4 and book 5 territory.  Many people had to wait 10 years to find out what happened to Tyrion after he killed his father and his lover.  His resolution didn't happen until Book 5 which just came out when season 1 was airing.  But, the stories from A Feast for Crows and the first half of A Dance With Dragons happen in parallel.   Get ready for more characters next year.  But, probably not ALL of the characters from the book.  GRRM's story gets even more sprawling, and some might argue UNFOCUSED in these 2 books.  I'm thinking the show will try to eliminate a lot of that and condense the stories into 1 season.  Which means, we soon can be in uncharted territory for both book readers and TV show watchers!  But, seeing some of the stuff they came up with on the show I am convinced we are in for a great ride regardless!   

I hope you guys enjoyed my Game of Thrones ramblings this year.  I'll try to keep it up next season as well.  At the very least we'll have a place to discuss the episodes.  Enjoy your hiatus and I'll see you in the comments! 

211 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Thanks for the recap. I don't normally, but read the EW stuff this morning before commenting. Overall a good ep and at times a great ep. First the things I didn't like.
1. The Stannis entry was seriously totally not realistic. Impossible to get that many men/horses/eqpt through the wall in a few hours. Especially undetected. So, it set the whole ep a little negative for me. I don't necessarily blame Alex for this though, it was likely written that way. When I read that D&B were going for realistic with the Hound and Brienne I wanted to gag in reference to this. In the end though things seem to be where they should be.
2. Brienne-Hound fight. UGGH This simultaneously make Brienne look brilliant taking out an ill/infected Hound and yet stupid for not recognizing the truth of what the Hound says. This fight does not happen and is a departure that isn't realistic given the size of land and various possible paths and being 10 miles away from the Vale. AS a matter of fact, the whole Brienne quest at this point seems stupid. We've discussed this before.
3. The lack of discussion that would have had a BIG impact on Jaime/Tyrion changing their relationship dramatically.
4.The Jaime/Cersei stuff continues with more departure and I don't think in a positive way.

Now for the things I liked to end on a positive note--almost absolutely everything else was awesome.
1.You're right, Kitt did a reasonable job with acting there, of course he didn't have to act strong and be a leader--lol.
2. Everything involving Tyrion.
3. The Hound and Arya at the end was powerful.
4.Qyborn at work was good to see.
5.No superfelous nudity.

I thought it interesting that we didn't see Aliser in the aftermath clean up. Two of the major characters are heading across the sea, things are changing.

For some reason these writers are making Brienne a much bigger character in the show. So, I think we'll see her complete story arc plus other stuff. In the books she fights someone she believes to be the Hound.

Richard

Anonymous said...

*********************book stuff***********************

LS will come forward. The writers love affair with Brienne demand it--lol. I was not as surprised as you with no LS,probably. If you recall I thought there were several possible ending shots, particularly involving Tyrion. But the ending with Arya was good.

If they're doing 7 seasons and there's going to be 7 books, then they don't have to combine 4 and 5 into one TV season. I have thought they would put some book 3 stuff into next season to make the next TV season more exciting.

Well, be better study up on some of the Bolton stuff now.

I wonder if we will get into some Stannis storylines moving more South than in the books, becoming more of a ruler of the 7 realms? Interesting that Jon recognized Stannis as King, deffering to him on what would happen with prisoners.

Richard

Mike V. said...

No problem Richard. Thanks for being one of the ones to convince me to do it! lol (The recap)

Let's discuss you gripes
1.) Maybe you're complaining more about its omission from the show or maybe you forget. Stannis didn't arrive through the gate. They came via Eastwatch by the Sea. They sailed in. Actually, I think they actually landed North of the Wall so they didn't have to cross it. I could be wrong about that, but they definitely didn't come from the gate. You can even see them arriving from the East in this episode. Hopefully this makes you relook at it in a different light.

2. I agree Brienne's quest looks a little stupid now...and agree she still needs to run into a certain someone so maybe you're right about your "book stuff" comment. lol I'll talk more about it down there. But, I just thought the scene was awesome. The acting, the fight, everything. The Hound didn't seem too ill from the infection either. I think that was a red herring for book readers.
3.) Absolutely. I don't get this at all. It's my biggest gripe of the episode. I've been waiting for it all season and I was so excited that it was about to happen, and then they just parted ways. I was so annoyed about it that I wrote about it in my "non spoiler" recap! lol
4.) I mentioned in the recap that I think Tywin's death due to Jaime's intervening with Tyrion might put a stake between Jaime/Cersei. So, maybe things aren't so bad. I'm surprised you didn't comment on this being basically a direct follow up to the "rape" scene or at least my comments on it and the fact that Alex directed both. lol

Comments on your LIKES
1.) True...but he did show leadership qualities in his sparing of Mance. Though, I think he kind of likes the dude. lol
2.) Agreed. He was still amazing minus the big scene that would've made it even better. I really wonder what episode Dinklage will submit for his acting. Probably the trial. But this one should be close.
3.) Amazing scene. One of my favorites of the series I'd even say.
4.) Yep...agreed!
5.) Wasn't needed at all. No time for that stuff! lol

Since they probably burned the bodies not too long after the battle, I'm sure Alliser was still recovering from injuries. He'll be back.

Game board is definitely changing. Focus will now be on The North and The East. King's Landing is just a mess of a place now. lol But there will still be aftermath to deal with there.

Brienne is a fairly big character in the show...especially in book 4. She got her own POV chapters. But, I think the actress is doing a great job with the role too. I know you don't exactly agree. Good point on the fight she believes to be with the hound. Maybe they played off that here. I'm sure she'll redirect her efforts to Sansa now since Arya was a "lost" cause for her efforts. lol But, in both book and TV...she did know Arya was alive for future plot lines.

I'll get to book stuff in next post!

Mike V. said...

******BOOK STUFF***********


I remember thinking that when LS gives Brienne the choice of Rope or Sword and she uttered one word....I thought it was "ARYA". Because she knew Arya was alive. And LS didn't think she was. But, the word ended up being SWORD...so she could go get Jaime.

You bring up a good point. This story probably still needs to happen, so maybe we'll get LS as an early cliffhanger next year. I just thought it would've been an awesome way to end the season. But was totally right about Tyrion being the 2nd to last scene. No one would've expected Arya's scene to be last but it worked well!

I think they're way past the "book per season" thing. They're just doing what fits where. But the main thread next year will be books 4 and 5, with maybe some remainders of 3 thrown in and some non-book stuff for the rest.

I think they may be expecting book 6 to be chock full of good material and that it may arrive before the end of the series. Books 4 and 5 can be combined for the most part. Maybe some leftover book 5 stuff for season 6. But for big event type stuff, there's probably only enough for one season and they'll have to make stuff up too. lol With the success of the show though...surely HBO is going to push for 8 seasons.

Agreed on Bolton. And Dornish Wine, perhaps! lol

Well we know Stannis will march on Winterfell....beyond that is a good question. We'll see! But, Stannis came to Castle Black's aid. Of course he'd recognize him as King. But then again..they probably recognize all kings as the Night's Watch doesn't have allegiance to the politics of the realm. But Jon knows Ned recognized Stannis as the true heir to the throne, so I could see that factoring in as well.

I thought about this after the recap...but Mellisandre was staring at Jon through the fires....I wonder if that was a sly reference to "all she saw was snow" lol

Mike V. said...

I forgot to include this in my recap but James Hibberd did a good job of explaining what the Children of the Forest are. Here it is for TV watchers and a refresher for Book Readers lol:

"Bran's group is rescued by the fire-bomb-flinging Children of the Forest. More Wiki-ing for casual fans: "The Children" are a mysterious non-human race that inhabited Westeros before the First Men arrived from Essos. The Children and the First Men fought for many years before both were nearly wiped out by the White Walkers. As conceived in the books, The Children are sort of like a cross between elves and Native Americans, and the people of Westeros now believe them to be extinct. But as we've seen, pretty much everything the folks in Westeros think is extinct is not actually extinct."

Mike V. said...

******BOOK STUFF******

James gives his take on why NO LS is a good thing. I haven't read it yet so I'm not sure if he knows for sure it's not happening

http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-finale-lady-stoneheart/

Anonymous said...

******************book stuff888888888888888888888
I read the hibberd article and can't agree that no LS is a good thing. If Brienne wasn't a character which gets a lot(too much for me) time, then he's got a point. But, without LS her continuing quest becomes even more lame. LS changes a lot of what Brienne is up to. If that's gone from the TV story, then Brienne is just a made up TV character with way too much time from a book reader's perspective.

Just another example of how Hibberd doesn't really take book reader's perspective. He's much more about the TV show. And another reason I don't consider his comments to be very important--lol. Although he has a lot of followers--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

*******BOOK STUFF*********************************


I agree with you more than James. I think it still can happen and there is a point behind it all. I agree with his reservations that it may jump over into the "TOO MUCH FANTASY" realm...but that's where this show is headed. More magic being revealed to the world of people who just thought it was myth.

I never thought Hibberd's comments were "important"...it's just nice that he has read the books and his recaps are usually hysterical. lol He's also the dedicated EW source to all things Game of Thrones like Jeff Jensen was their LOST guy. So he gets all the exclusive interviews and site visits. But, the man has opinions too. We all have our opinions of what we like the most in the books, he's just explaining his. Not everyone agrees with him and he understands that.

Anonymous said...

You're right about the Stannis army, they did land north of the wall, fogot that, thanks. But, there would have been scouts reporting on their approach, not a swarm effect for an army that size!

Yea, Melissandre/Jon starring at each other through the fire was a clue for things to come.

The show and books are changing gears now. I will miss Tywin and the Hound a lot. Both were superb actors and did a great job for us to see. In a way I will miss Tyrion too for that character will be fundamentally changed without money and the use of his famous name. With Arya going to Bravos we will see more of that city, it is in the opening shots.

I rewatched some of the Bran stuff from previous eps. Interesting that his vision of KL throne room matches Dany's.

OH yea, I liked the fireballs too.

I was trying not to comment on your observation about Alex and the Jaime/Cersei rape/non rape stuff. The scene last night doesn't mean the other wasn't rape. Many women go back to their bad husbands, it's a cycle sometimes. It certainly shows she wants things as they were. At least for now--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Well you have to complain to GRRM on the Stannis thing. I think the Wildlings were so focused on Castle Black they weren't concerned about what was coming from the East.

Yeah, can't wait for Arya in Braavos. I always pictured something like Venice for Braavos. I wonder if they'll shoot there. There was an Arya chapter from WoW released, I wonder if they'll potentially include that in the show if book 6 doesn't get released in time. lol Though, some of the themes of that scene are similar to stuff we've seen in the show already. Don't want to speak too much to it.

Definitely interesting on Bran/Dany stuff...though, I'm sure they used the same footage! LOL But, it certainly is foreshadowing I'm guessing.

Fireballs were a good time. Agreed.

I wasn't saying the other scene WASN'T rape, though a lot of our debate was if they'd ever have any follow-up to that scene to maybe sort of justify it. I'm not saying the rape is justified, but they certainly showed mirroring between Cersei's 2 distinct reactions to Jaime's deformed self. I was just happy it wasn't a stand-alone scene that went nowhere. It did play into something. Something NON-BOOKISH, but still something.

Mike V. said...

*****BOOK STUFF******

Oh boy Alex Graves weights on in on lack of specific LS scene in the finale:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-why-no-lady-stoneheart/

I'm sure you'll have lots to say Richard! Again, posting before I read article. lol

Anonymous said...

You're right, the two Jaime/Cersei scenes were meant to be connected.

I just read where D&B say the story arc is mid point and that the expanding universe of characters will now start contracting. How's that going to happen, given the expanse for next season? Maybe we'll have a big departure from books?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2014/06/15/game-of-thrones-hbo-finale-recap/10448569/

Richard

Mike V. said...

****BOOK STUFF (in reference to Richard's 11:35 comment lol) ******

I've been saying (not just me) that this probably signifies where we will have a giant departure from the books in terms of what is incorporated and what isn't. I think a lot of the Ironborn stuff will be cut down. We didn't even see Balon Greyjoy this season and we only saw him in the finale of last season. They may not touch a lot of the Victarion/Aeron stuff.

Obviously, we're going to meet some Dorne folk because they're on a casting sheet. I wonder if they're going to throw out the whole Aegon thing too. There's enough of a story with Tyrion and Jorah teaming up and returning to Dany's aid...maybe they don't need all of these competing factions to marry her. lol It's a little overly complicated for the TV show.

Should be interesting to what happens. But yeah...I think trimming the fat may make the TV show play better than the books at this point. The problem is trimming the fat will surpass the books timewise, as we've been discussing all season.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the link **************maybe some spoilers************

Alex grave on LS was sad. Kind of goes back to link I just posted. They certainly wouldn't let anyone know she was coming back. Of course Brienne could just meet up with the Brotherhood???

The D&B comment on consolidation is important I think. That tells me that the real enemy may gain more of a front burner status going forward vs the book???

Richard

Mike V. said...

****MORE BOOK STUFF (SORRY MJ!!! lol)******


I figured you'd like the fact that Alex is PRO LS. lol True...maybe Brienne could meet up with the brotherhood. That could work.

You know what else they've cut out? All Starks having wolf dreams, not just Bran. Arya is the one who dreamt of Nymeria getting CS out of the water and helping the brotherhood find her.

Good point on what might be in the front burner. They certainly may be pushing WW to the forefront. Of course, there's no more GRRM material to do so I don't think. So, it would all be on the conversations they've had with him with where things are going rather than details. ohhhh boy. I'm getting nervous. lol (in a "it's only a tv show" sort of way)

Anonymous said...

**************spoilers*******************88

Oh no, they can't taken out the Aegon and Dany being married stuff. Particularly the Aegon stuff.

I agree this could be the biggest departure but surely more doesn't mean say, 30% made up? If they don't have the AT stuff that is more like an 80% departure, given what he is supposed to be. I could handle Dany not getting married since that's all about her failings and growth. But no AT is a big deal.

The LS storyline really isn't very important unless you have the Brienne and Brotherhood storyline. Except that it punctuates the magical goings on.

What I don't understand is why they would cut so much when they need more material??

For a lot of people, the secondary characters like the Hound( who was great this season) are what makes the story great. I mean seriously, if the show had more and more Jon and Dany say vs Tywin and the Hound, it wouldn't be nearly as good.

Richard
Richard

Mike V. said...

*****************BOOK STUFF*****************


Oh no...Dany will still mary Hizdar, but he's been introduced. I meant all the other suitors enroute like Victarion and Aegon...I don't know if they'll keep them. It really depends on what the end game is and what are red herrings. I heard a good point on a podcast....the spoiler things is about to get turned around on book readers. We may find out what characters are important and which ones aren't before the books are released. Unless they're going in a totally different direction than GRRM ends up going.

You THINK AT is a big deal. We think he potentially is a big deal...but he may not be. He might be a stall tactic until Dany can get West. That's my point exactly. We're going off assumptions right now. But GRRM puts twists left and right.

They're cutting what they may consider extraneous to tell a great story from start to finish. They're not in the business of stalling until GRRM is ready. They want to move this story towards its conclusion, not milk GRRM's words for all it's worth. They've said that in so many words in pre-season 4 interviews. They're going on what "FEELS" right for this kind of TV story.

Everyone loves THE HOUND. I'm sure they did too. Everyone loved Ben, Desmond, Locke, Sawyer more than Jack. That didn't make Jack Shephard's story any less important to the LOST saga (as a comparison). Eventually the Jons and Dany's of the world have to come front and center. But, there's still going to be great secondary players. I'm sure the Dorne stuff will be much better than the bore it was to read in the books. But, for all that they change, they still are staying true to the heart of the books...so The Hound dies/disappears at the end of that book, same here.

MJ said...

Let me just say - loved the episode ! NEVER thought that Tywin would die - never even crossed my mind. So - the question I have is was Shae
working for Tywin all this time ? Or did she just fall in with Tywin after the trial.

Tywin really had a bad day - first Cersie tells him heck no I'm not doing as you want, and my kid is not a Baratheon, then his son kills him on the toilet. LOL And now all of a sudden she wants Jamie again ?

Very interesting what you are saying was left out with Jamie/Tyrion. Can only speak for myself but I don't think I ever even knew that people said his wife was a whore ?!? Obviously I can see how it would have lead Tyrion to go seek out Tywin instead of getting away - cause there really was no reason for Tyrion to go see his dad in the show.

What I won't agree with is 'best' episode of the series so far which I've seen a few times today. We've debated Kit's acting ? Guess that was in the book sections. Glad you mentioned Melisandre's interest in Jon cause I could tell if that was what she was
checking out or something else.

Dany was so sad when she locked up her 2 dragons. I guess I don't get the issue with the old man. Slavery is over now but he still wants to be with his former master. SO - it's called a job and you get paid - making it not slavery. Tell the master to pay the old man then he can work there.

The Mountain - what you didn't mention is that whatever Qyburn is giving him will have the opposite effect of weakening him ? What did that mean ??

Was very surprised by Bran finally getting where he was going, and the skeletons attacking and killing Jojen. Loved the Brienne/Hound fight. She kicks him in the nuts and he kicks her in the very same place. Yikes. And she pulls a Tyson ! And sends him over the cliff. Cannot believe she did not end his suffering for him though.

Ok - have to read all the comments now. Another great season comes to an end. Makes me sad.

But what's with bathrooms lately ? Veep ended in a bathroom as well. LOL

MJ said...

wow - comments took no time at all. i was alarmed when i saw 18 - should have realized over half were book talk. LOL

Mike V. said...

MJ

Glad you loved the episode! Yeah, Tywin dying was a shocker in the books too. It was the one I've been biting my tongue on all season. As for Shae....GRRM was actually interviewed on EW (I posted the link) though it kinda gets into the discussion I brought up too about what was left out. Anyway, he says he really doesn't want to say what was going on with Shae because it might play into future books. So actually, we don't really know what happened with Shae behind closed doors. Though, I think the general consensus is that Tywin knew of Shae and knew this was the girl that Tyrion brought to King's Landing. Shae was pointed out by Cersei to Tywin at Joffrey's wedding and that was right around when Tyrion broke it off with her and tried to send her to ESSOS. We also knew that Bronn didn't see Shae actually leave. So, we can assume Tywin had Shae taken off the boat. As for Tywin's affair with Shae...I think that's where there is still some more story to tell. Because we know Tywin is not all about whoring around. Or at least we didn't think so.

Yeah...those Lannister kids are all kinds of messed up. Cersei wanting Jaime again didn't really happen in the books. Well...I guess at some point she needs his assistance on something, but he is forever changed after his de-handing to her. And Cersei confessing to Tywin didn't happen in the books either. But neither of them were POV characters in book 3.

If you remember the "I Never" drinking game that Tyrion, Shae and Bronn played in season 1...it's when Tyrion told the story of his first wife...and how Tywin told Tyrion she was a whore after he had rescued her and fallen in love with her and married her. Then he had his whole squadron of soldiers have at her and tossed her a silver coin for each one. Something crazy like that. In the book, Jaime tells Tyrion that she wasn't really a whore. There's a whole story to it and I'm failing to remember all the details. I'm sure I'll look it up soon enough and post it if it's safe. lol But the point was, Tyrion never believed anyone could ever really love him for who he was. And that first encounter with a woman is what ruined him. Then to top it off Shae was in bed with his father when he went up there to confront him...and he hit all kinds of new levels of rage.

It's interesting for you to say that you don't see the reason for him to go see his Dad. Most of us agree. It was a pivotal moment just left out of the show. Though...his father has been awful to Tyrion for most of his life. So, maybe they were just banking on people remember that.

Yeah...it was Richard and I debating his acting. lol Sorry!! I remember what I spoil and don't spoil, but commenting on acting talents...that I don't remember where I do it! :) Glad those "book sections" are working though!!

Mel is definitely interested in Jon Snow. That's all I'll say. :)

Yeah..a lot of people had the same gripes with the Old Man thing with Dany. I don't think that exact story was in the books...but basically the plight is, Dany freed the city, but she didn't anticipate dealing with this kind of fallout. I compare this guy's plight to the old guy getting out of prison at Shawshank and not knowing what to do with himself, so he hung himself. (spoiler alert?? lol) But yeah....he could always go back and work for the master anyway. Who cares if he did that? Who would know? It's a bit of a stretch.

Mike V. said...


Mountain - The opposite of weakening is making "STRONGER". All I can say is, it's a nod to book readers, is all I'm guessing. lol I think I missed that line when I was taking some notes, so it's funny that you called it out. It's probably not a huge spoiler to say what it all means, but I'll lean on being safe.

The action was all great, agreed! I still can't believe they took Bran's story to the end of what is written so far...outside of maybe one chapter. lol But, depending how that one chapter goes, I have theories on where they can take his story from there. Unless they're going beyond the books based on what GRRM said is going to happen.

UGH...VEEP, I need to watch that show! I've heard good things! We can only hope Jack Bauer finally uses a bathroom on this day! lol

Mike V. said...

Sorry about all the book talk MJ! There was a glaring omission from this episode that has Richard and I trading opinions...and of course also where seasons 4-7 (or 8) will go.

The books take a drastic turn after the first 3. The first 3 were amazing books with twist after twist and turned into 4 amazing seasons of television. Books 4 and 5 still contain GRRM's great writing style and character driven stories, but there are lots of brand new characters and the stories are all over the place and it's tough to determine where they'll all converge.

Books 4 and 5 happen in parallel too so there's a chance most of it will be next season. So, then it's all OFF book after that unless GRRM's 6th book comes out next year, which many think it might.

Anyway, we're debating what should stick around, what may not and if the big book 3 omission will actually happen next season or not.

EW has lots of articles about the same thing (with spoiler warnings galore). Be careful!

Mike V. said...

****BOOK STUFF******

I love Tower of the Hand and went there when I was reading the book to read chapter synopsis after reading chapters and discussions once they ran out of chapter synopsis(es?) in ADWD. This guy Stefan had an early copy of ADWD and was giving chapter summaries in those discussions for anyone interested before reading the book. (of course, I was a year or 2 behind but I would've fought temptations!)

Anyway, I guess he regularly has been reviewing the TV show too. Here's his review of THE CHILDREN and his gripes with differences from the book.

You probably have to set your spoiler levels on the site to state that you've seen all the seasons and read all the books to read it.

Anyway, his thoughts aren't very different than ours on why Tysha wasn't in the show...but he brought up a good point about LS. I would agree, it didn't really fit thematically with the episode especially with the order stuff aired. It could still be coming as we stated. Here's the link

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2014/06/16-deconstructed-children/index.html

Mike V. said...

TV SHOW SAFE! lol

Interview with Dinklage and Dance on the big scene

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-dinklage-dance-tywin-tyrion/

MJ said...

Well if there is more story to tell about Tywin and Shae I don't know how they'd do that. LOL Yeah - I was guessing 'stronger' but of course don't know what that really means. Interesting. No worries on the Book talk.

What surprises me is the EW guy comparing impacts of Martell's death with Tywin. Not even close to being the same level for me. As a non-bookie Martel was a fun character that was mildly amusing only because he kept giving little digs to the Lannisters. His death was horrible (great) to watch visually but the death of his character wasn't all that upsetting to me. The only reason to care was that Tyrion lost then. In reality the character was nothing but a whoring drunk with a bunch of illegitimate kids - cause that is all the show gave us of him - who wanted to avenge his sisters death. Losing Tywin is HUGE. I'd always figured his great planning would be such big help against the war with the Walkers that is coming.

Mike V. said...

Q&A with GRRM, here's what he said about Shae in future books

"Q: Right, and there’s also the surprise at Tywin’s hypocrisy when he finds her in his bed. Did Tywin know she was a prostitute [in the book version that's not clear]? Or did he just not care?

A: Oh, I think Tywin knew about Shae. He probably figured out she was the same camp-follower that he expressly said “you will not bring that whore to court,” and that Tyrion defied him again and did bring that whore to court. As to precisely what happened here, that’s something I don’t really want to talk about because there’s still aspects of it I haven’t revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered.
It’s also worth mentioning Shae is one of the characters that really has changed significantly from the books to the TV show. I think that [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] wrote Shae very differently, and a symbol to Sibel Kekilli — the incredible girl playing her. Shae is much more sincere in her affections for Tyrion. This is almost contradictory, but with the Shae in the TV series, you can tell she actually has real feelings for Tyrion — she challenges him, she defies him. The Shae in the books is a manipulative camp-follower prostitute who doesn’t give a s–t about Tyrion any more than she would any other john, but she’s very compliant, like a little teenage sex kitten, feeding all his fantasies; she’s really just in it for the money and the status. She’s everything lord Tywin thought Tyrion’s first wife was that she actually wasn’t. So there are all layers of complexity going on here. They’re the same character, but they’re also very different characters, and I think that’s going to lead to very different resonances playing out in the TV show than in the books."
here's full interview that I linked to in recap too. There aren't really too many spoilers other than the Tyrion's first wife thing I brought up earlier.
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/


I think what people liked of Oberyn Martell is that he was a FUN character. Badass in the books and easy to root for. But FUN and badass on the show. And the actor did an amazing job with what little screentime he had. But yeah...the loss of TYWIN is a much bigger and significant loss to the show. And the fact that Charles Dance turned in such an amazing performance in every scene makes it even more of a big loss.

That's crazy that you thought he'd be a force for good against the Walkers. I guess why wouldn't you think that? He was certainly a master strategist. Of course, this show is seems to be mainly about the "legacy" of the older generation (the children of Ned Stark, Tywin Lannister, Robert Baratheon among others). So, it's probably going to be Snow, Dany, Tyrion, Jaime and whoever else figuring out how to take on this larger threat. Of course, that's just my theory. lol I can't imagine the Boltons helping in any way considering they are the rising villains in this story.

Granted, there's still more Book story to tell before I should go spouting off my theories! :)

MJ said...

Not buying Grrm's view on why Tyrion goes to see Tywin to begin with. But whatever. LOL However - his point about the irony of him murdering two persons right after getting out for a murder he didn't commit were very interesting. He talks about Tyrion being haunted by killing his dad - but will this also haunt Jamie for enabling it inadvertently ? Thanks for the info on the conversation during the drinking game. I remember them playing - but not what was said.

Mike V. said...

MJ - well GRRM is speaking from a BOOK perspective. He clearly says he's motivated by the news of Tysha that Jaime tells him. That motivation is just not there in the show. Though Dinklage talks about it in that other link I posted...saying he needs closure. He knows that it's a mistake to go up there but he needs something from his father. I guess...lol But yeah..good point for murdering 2 people as a result of not murdering Joff.

The fact that you don't remember that drinking game details is probably another reason they didn't have the conversation in the episode! lol The thing about Tysha (Tyrion's wife) is that she was always in Tyrion's internal thoughts which can't always make it to the screen. So he always questioned if Shae actually loved him because of what happened in his first encounter with a woman. But yes...the fact that Jaime played a part in Tyrion's escape could absolutely haunt him as well. The thing that's missing though is that Tyrion hated Jaime for playing a part in the ruse as well. So, I guess they're just eliminating that arc from the story. Granted, the showrunners know a bit from GRRM about how these character arcs end up...so maybe Tyrion hating Jaime wasn't something that paid off in the end. Considering they seem to share some of the same ideals in life, it makes sense that it wouldn't.

Anonymous said...

It would have made a lot more sense for the Jamie/Tyrion conversation about Tysha happening so that Tyrion had the obvious combined anger at his Dad. But hey, why direct an ep that is closer to the book and makes more sense--lol. If it weren't for Dinklage, this scene would be almost as laughable as Brienne's quest.

BTW, with Tyrion's escape I bet Cersei goes off. Although she may or may not be so upset about Tywin? Interesting how that will compare with the books. Here she shouldn't be so upset since she doesn't want to marry Loras.

One of the craziest things with this show is that we've got to wait almost another year for it to be here again!!!

Interesting takes on the Tower of the Hand link.

Richard

Anonymous said...

A review with some good insights

http://io9.com/the-secret-to-making-sense-of-last-nights-game-of-thron-1591334762


Richard

Mike V. said...

Totally agree. Dinklage sold it. I am a little upset those details weren't there. They could've spent time alluding to Tysha throughout the season so it didn't come out of nowhere.

Yeah, Cersei will probably be more upset over Tyrion's escape than Tywin's death. I almost wrote how Book Cersei reacts, but that's a spoiler. I have to remember there still are spoilers even if the most exciting ones are behind us now! :-) There's still a few good ones coming! Especially if the omission from this season makes an appearance next season.

Yeah, sucks about the year, but it's event television! I'm good with the hiatus. Makes me want it more. Plus, now that you have me recapping the crazy show, I welcome the break! lol

Started reading that article and it's good, but didn't realize how long it was. I need to get home to my family! LOL I'll check it out later.

Anonymous said...

Have the new actors/characters leaked out for next season?

Mike V. said...

We talked about the Dorne characters last week or the week before. But yeah the casting call sheet for Dorne has been circulating. I'll put a spoiler warning but there's not much to spoil since the names don't really mean anything to non-bookies! lol

**********POTENTIAL SEASON 5 CHARACTERS WARNING************************



Prince Doran
Sand Snakes (Oberyn's Bastard daughters)

I'll have to look up the others but the one missing that surprised me was Arianne Martell since she is a POV character and has chapters that were cut from ADWD to be in WoW

I don't think casting has begun yet for season 5 so I doubt there's any leaks there.

Mike V. said...

******MORE DETAILED CASTING CALL******


http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/game-of-thrones-season-five-characters-leaked-diversity

Copy/Paste from article below:

Prince Doran Martell - Doran is described as the major new player this year, appearing in multiple episodes. The fiftysomething prince uses a wheelchair, is reclusive and rules wisely. It appears the show is looking to continue the trend it started with Pedro Pascal, and cast Latino actors for the Martell clan.

Prince Trystane Martell - Trystane, the handsome fiance of Princess Myrcella, is being aged up to 18.

Areo Hotah — Doran’s personal bodyguard will appear throughout the season, assisting the prince with his duties. The show is particularly looking for a black actor to fill the role.

The Sand Snakes, Oberyn Martell’s bastard daughters (with ages ranging 18-25):

Obara Sand - The eldest and most athletic Sand Snake will be having a major fight scene with a series regular character- not one who crosses her path in the books. This is an interesting change.

Nymeria Sand - Nymeria is described as “mixed race,” with her father being the fairer Oberyn and her mother being darker skinned. The second oldest of these Sand Snakes, she’s beautiful, emotional and very strong.

Tyene Sand - The youngest of the Sand Snakes that we meet uses her wits and seductive powers, and is less of a physical fighter than the other Sand Snakes. She is just as deadly as her sisters, however, but her weapon is poison.

High Sparrow - The books’ pious head of a religious movement will be appearing in several episodes in season 5.

Septa Unella - The show is looking for a character actress to play the imposing and unrelenting septa who spends a lot of time with a major series character next year.

Maggy the Frog- A fortune teller in A Feast for Crows, she’ll be in one episode next year.

Lollys Stokeworth - Just last week in “Mockingbird,” Bronn announced his intention to marry Lollys, whom Tyrion considers “dimwitted.” It looks like the sellsword will still be around next year.

Yezzan - A sleazy Meereenese slave owner.

The Waif - The strange child from the books that Arya encounters will likely be played by an older actress, one in her later teens, and we understand the show is specifically looking for a woman of East Asian descent for the part.

MJ said...

34 comments ! LOL

Yesterday i saw the interview with showrunners but it said part 2 tuesday. I've check twice and no part two yet.

FYI - tow other person I know who are not bookies also thought it strange Tyrion went to see Tywin after his jail break. i know Dinkledge has said Tyrion needed closure - but it's pretty illogical truthfully.

MJ said...

Tywin - not that I thought he'd be a force for good per se - as in wanting to help others. But I kinda thought they'd have to stop battling for the throne to deal with the bigger threat - therefore he'd have to work with others to help defeat the walkers which really saves himself too. Not that he was becoming a good guy or anything. LOL





Mike V. said...

MJ - You don't have to convince me! I think the backstory was really needed to justify him going up to see Tywin. It would've helped justify his reaction to Shae up there too. Sure, shock value and need for closure "work" but not as well as it could have.

Hmm...part 2 of the interview? Didn't see that was coming. Guess I'll look out for it too. I am waiting for the Book vs. Show discussion they've been doing (which I don't recommend you read! lol)

Tywin - yeah...I envision that happening too...but just not with Tywin! lol The whole stop battling for the throne and take on the big bad. And of course, fallout from that could determine who earned the right to the throne. i.e. Dany slays them all with her dragons and the people love her? Probably too neat and perfect for this show/book series...so I guess we'll see eventually!

Mike V. said...

***BOOK STUFF****

Finally GoT Book Club! lol Hillary and Darren want LS too! lol

http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/06/17/game-of-thrones-tv-book-club-finale/

Anonymous said...

A great read and maybe some spoilers, but not really, mostly just comparing and analyzing


http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Episodes/Entry/The_Children/Book_Spoilers/#Analysis

I find this analysis of the ep to be very good and I agree on the Brienne/Hound fight.

One thing this points to is how far the TV show has come in being different from the books. I had forgot that Jaime wouldn't succomb to Cersei. The core character differences that have come as a result of these differences is what I dislike the most.

I loved the description of the greenseer. And a former Nights Watch guard.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Thanks Richard, I'll check it out.


****BOOK STUFF******


Oh I didn't forget about Jaime/Cersei....which shocked me that they'd have her saying the "I choose you" nonsense and coming onto him in the Gold Cloaks sacred room. I get the mirroring between the other "scene" but I think there still has to be some divide coming for them. then again, the characters are behaving with so many different motivations than they have in the books who knows what's coming at this point? lol

Mike V. said...

3-Eyed Raven Dude (i.e. BR - not named on show yet so I'll wait lol) - yeah book fans complained how he just looked your typical wise elder/wizard in a fantasy novel/movie....we have Gandalf the White north of the Wall now. But the book description is much different...the dude is basically one with the tree and even has a branch coming out of his eye. I guess they didn't think that would be translatable/relatable on the screen. So...Gandalf it is! lol

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the link. ***************************book stuff**********************************************

Yea, no CH either. I really thought that would be there. Funny how different commentators have different takes on importance of various events/characters.

Kind of made me laugh that these guys are supposed to be experts and couldn't figure out how Cersei is going to become mad at Jaimee. Seriously makes me question why I read these guys sometimes. Also, should make you feel better that you do a much better job!!!

Richard

Mike V. said...

****BOOK STUFF****


I think GRRM has gone on record before pretty much downplaying the importance of characters like Syrio Forel and Cold Hands. Many people have theorized over the years that Syrio is actually Jacquen...and Cold Hands might be a "changed" Benjen Stark. But, it doesn't seem like that is going to be the case in either instance...unless he's downplaying them on purpose because he had intended them as twists. lol

But yeah...once they knew they had to go to that tree, many people assumed CH was no longer in play and I brought that up quite a few times in our discussions!

lol, thanks for the compliment! Well the writers on EW are getting much younger these days. I'm sure they always stay the same age and I've just gotten older!! But the site has turned into a much less reputable place for quality articles and more of a BLOG (which is what this is too...so). That said, James Hibberd still does excellent work with his recaps for GoT.

Anyway...Cersei getting mad at Jaime. Well, certainly there'd be more ammunition for the opposite if Jaime knew about Lancel Lannister, and suspected the other guy Tyrion mentions in the book (who really wasn't a big player in the show).... I'm sure as much as she wanted to defy her father, the fact that Jaime aided in Tyrion's escape (i.e. him not dying) and her father dying because of Tyrion....that'll probably fuel her rage again. Plus...she's always been scheming and manipulating to stay Queen...but she's never actually had to rule. Now with the Lannister family in shambles....she's going to get that chance...and the fact that she'll struggle could make her miss her father and resent Jaime more for his involvement in that turn of events for their family.

Plus...the show has made Cersei into this Bi-Polar type character when it comes to Jaime...one minute she could love him, the next be at his throat. There's plenty of ways to do it. But, some of the source material they decided to omit just seems like it had the potential to add so much more weight to these scenes. And I know TV is different than Books, but they've done so well with making extensive dialogue scenes resonate in the past, I just assumed the Jaime/Tyrion conversation would be one of them.

Mike V. said...

Part 2 of the interview with Showrunners has posted:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/18/game-of-thrones-season-5/

Mike V. said...

Some of Dan and Dave's comments speak to the discussion we were having above (not sure if in book or non book Territory). They're not planning to slow down to give George time to finish writing. They know where things are going to some extent and want the show to keep moving towards conclusion. They seem to be very confident about what they're doing. And they've produced some great television so far so it's hard to doubt them (even if they removed some key dialogue that many book readers loved in the books lol).

I just still wonder how the ending of the show will compare to the ending of the books. It just feels like up to this point both book and show are following the same trajectory for the most part. But once you throw out key source material it feels like even if they end similarly (with Dragons fighting White Walkers)....the character drama for each will change drastically. Which is fine...in fact, I'd probably prefer that than seeing what George is going to write air on TV and then I have to read about it in 2000 pages. lol

It's just interesting, that's all! lol

Also interesting that they said they'll continue to kill characters off that are still alive in GRRM's books. Minor characters that's probably fine, but I wonder if they're hinting at more significant characters!?

The fact that they're pretty satisfied with what they have mapped out for season 5 makes me think they probably DO have the omitted scene from book 3 in mind for this upcoming season.

Of course, that and condensing books 4 and 5 into one season can probably lead to some dramtically awesome results. For as much stuff as there were in those books, there certainly is plenty of awesome stuff to draw from too. I really can't wait to see Arya in Braavos.

I'm thinking the Ironborn storyline will take a backseat though. I won't give any more details there as we're not in a spoiler section.

Mike V. said...

I'll keep this in general discussion, in the comments someone asked about the ommitted Book 3 scene in a way that he was critiquing James Hibberd for not asking. Naturally, I came to hibberd's defense saying they probably wouldn't have answered anyway. Anyway James himself responded and said, he did ask and they have no comment.

For me, that implies to me that they probably are going to incorporate it. lol

Mike V. said...

That or they don't want to create backlash by saying they aren't incorporating it. I guess it could be either! lol

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the link. I kind of read it a tad differently, in that they keep in touch with GRRM on a continual basis. So, that should help keep things somewhat together between the books and TV. But, yea they seem to be wanting to narrow the character field down, but yet they are adding for next year--doesn't compute. I can see by the end of next year they narrow down. One thing is they seem to be bringing together key people to set up the end run. Jon could indeed be ice and Dany could be fire--lol.
They keep talking about 7 seasons and I keep hearing maybe 8 seasons. I could see this done in 7 because that's what they want to do, unless HBO dangles a whole wad of cash in front of them--lol.

Also VERY interesting about HBO and GRRM discussing more of his related works. And yet D&B are not involved. They want sleep--lol, probably why 10 eps is all they will do.


*************book stuff*****************

I don't know why we haven't heard about AT being cast?? That bothers me a little, if we don't hear soon, then it makes me wonder about the whole storyline.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Yea, again, given the Brienne stuff I just can't imagine them not adding it!!! AGain, Brienne needs to change her quest as her current direction is kind of stupid--lol. I think ep 1 likely.

Can they keep casting lists private/confidential so we don't know if someone's in a show?

Richard

Mike V. said...

No, I read it that way too. They definitely are keeping in touch with George, but they also are moving right along and not milking things waiting for more books. It should keep things close...but I still think George will want specific plot elements to be revealed in the books first rather than on the show before the book is released. And it seems that differences are inevitable anyway because of the different characterizations, omitted characters/storylines, etc...so they may end with the same ideas, but the details could be very different. It's the whole butterfly effect thing again.

I think contracting also means that characters may be coming together geographically too...not just "LESS" characters. To say more is book spoilers :) lol Though, the Stannis/Wall plot combination is an example.

Dan and Dave say 7 seasons. HBO are the ones saying maybe 8. 7 books, 7 realms, 7 gods, 7 seasons. But, HBO has a hit, and they'll milk it if Dan/Dave will let them.

Oh yeah, GRRM has a contract with HBO to produce another show. No one knows if it's ICE/FIRE related or not. Most people suspect Dunk/Egg stories to be adapted or a prequel Ice/Fire story. (i.e. Rhaegar, Ned, Robert...and that whole thing) We'll see what happens. But yeah...10 episodes is probably draining them. Like I said, with the way they produce the show it's not as simple as adding 3 episodes to shorten the time between seasons. They could be filming a scene from the 13 episode at the same time as something in the 1st. So, it would delay things.

********************Book Stuff******************

Like I mentioned before, I'm debating whether they'll cut that storyline. It may SEEM important in the books, but it may not be in the scheme of things. We just don't know yet. But THEY do. The fact that Oberyn's storyline is in there and the whole Mountain killing Elia's children....that means they may get into it...or they may just say "YES" both kids died.

When Ramsay Snow was cast, early leaks said the actor was playing Ramsay, but by the time the series started, his character name wasn't listed anywhere or mentioned so people were still about to wonder who it was. If AT is cast, I'm sure they'd have to do something similar. We'd know an actor was cast, but we wouldn't know who he is. But many would speculate.

Anonymous said...

*************book stuff******************

Great point on the Dorne/Martell stuff. I really didn't think it was that important, but they're including it for a reason--duh!

Well, at the rate things are going I don't expect that book 7 will be here in time for season7--lol. So, maybe season 8 will be a kind of stretch and delay tactic--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Lets not kid ourselves, it probably wouldn't be ready for an 8th season either! Lol

Anonymous said...

Maybe some spoilers

Kind of funny on GoT:

http://www.cnet.com/news/wil-wheaton-turns-game-of-thrones-into-the-brady-bunch/

Another review which I kind of agree with, except sorry, don't like the Brienne/Sandor meeting. Loved the Arya/Sandor goodbye. Part of the reason is the bloody gate scene should logically have gone on for them to enter the Vale. I love this guys opinion of Alex--LOL!!!

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2014/06/18-review-children/index.html


Richard

Mike V. said...

I could've sworn you sent that link last night. I got emailed, but I guess it didn't post. lol (considered spam maybe) I still haven't watched it but I will when I get a chance!

I breezed through the Tower of the Hand link you sent. Funny with Graves. lol I totally agree with the critiques that they didn't really explain Arya/Hound leaving the Eyrie. I guess Arya laughing was meant for us to think they can't catch a break and decided to leave. But that really doesn't make sense.

But, I still loved the Brienne/Arya meeting...and the fight that ensued after.

Most of the other complaints are the same stuff we've brought up already. And even though I was missing that "missing" scene...I still loved it ending with Arya too. She's probably one of my favorite characters in the books and Maisie is doing a fantastic job bringing her to life on screen.

Anonymous said...

Yea, I did put it up last night, but it wasn't there this morning

54 posts, MJ probably thinks this is nuts?

Whatever happened to AU StarWars

Mike V. said...

lol...there's lots to talk about!

I'm sure it's in my spam comment checker. You wouldn't believe how many spam comments I receive! (still on the LOST blog too) They automatically get filtered most of the time. I'll just delete it since you reposted it.

AUSTARWARS - We actually work at the same place....but we didn't find that out until AFTER he was reading the LOST Addicts blog. lol

Anyway, he's definitely still watching the show (and read the books). Just doesn't come on here and comment all of the time. I'll let him know his fans were asking for him!

Anonymous said...


Lots here, I wish they didn't use curse words so much. But some really good thoughts. I totally disagree and liked seeing the Other baby.

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2014/06/23-dueling-reviewers-s5-beyond/index.html

Glad they agree on too much to cover in 10 eps especially with a broadening of the story--lol. Something else I've said, which D&B point to the opposite. Which in turn means likely more divergence.

Interesting point they make about book readers not wanting to continue watching the show until book comes out with new info first. Or not buying books. It is a self made problem for GRRM. I did not realize how quickly he wrote the first 3. Makes me think he had a clear vision up front and now he's searching for a vision.

I TOTALLY agree, S4 was the weakest so far.

Check out the post by clk on S5 ep storylines. My goodness, I thought we were involved with this show--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yeah those people are pretty intense! I'll take a look at the link later. I still think this season was really strong. Most critics and TV only fans think it was probably the best too. lol

The show is just bound to differ from the books the further they get into it. But yeah, those first few books came out fast. Though, he wasn't AS successful then and it's probably all he did. Now he's enjoying his life and travelling and is involved in way too much than just getting those books done. It's how he wants to live his life so there's not much we can do about it!

Sure, it's a self-made issue, but it's also HBO and D&D who forced his hand by purchasing the rights to the show. Sure, he could've said no...but he probably wanted the money! lol

I absolutely agree there's probably too much to cover in 10 episodes...but logistically, it still makes sense that they can only do 10. And I think they're going to cut a lot out of books 4 and 5. so yes...there will be lots of changes.

I heard rumors that Jaime might be going to Dorne which would be a total change from the books.... (This is just speculation...so I didn't put it under spoilers lol)

I also heard about book fans considering not to watch any more of the show until the books are done. That's crazy. The show is inevitably going to be a little different than the books. But, I guess GRRM and D&D will have to speak to that in more detail when they're caught up. Well, they don't have to do anything, but I could see them touching on it briefly. Like how this won't ruin the book experience. lol

Anonymous said...

Jaime going to Dorne, hmmm. I really don't understand why Dorne should become a big deal vs some other storylines. But as you say we are moving away from the books and so this is really speculation vs spoiler territory. We haven't seen much of the Greyjoys and many are speculating we won't for example.

In so many ways much of where we are heading could become truly new territory. Hard to post spoilers with that in mind.

So, did you like the Other baby???

Richard

Mike V. said...

Include me in the grey joy speculation. I think they are cutting that right out. Victarion was a good character. And I like book asha better than show yara. But yeah that story just isn't that interesting. No idea how important it is.

I figure if they're going to tell Tyrions story he may still encounter a certain character we may think is important. Lol

And well people just love those dornisn peeps! Everyone envisions some very attractive females to play the sand snakes. Lol and oberyn certainly was having fun in a very bleak world. Which leads us to believe dorne will be a fun place to visit. Though I always pictured desert when I was reading the books. Lol

Other baby - I dunno. It certainly was the weirdest episode of the season and the most different than the books. I understand they want to keep the white walkers in everyone's mind. It's like the smoke monster in lost. Required appearance in every season. Prominent figure in the final. Lol But the other baby thing was weird! Lol that's where the show is going though so it's still important. It just brings into question if it is what GRRM had in mind or not. And that's really what may happen in the upcoming seasons more often.

Anonymous said...

Other baby--I really liked it, but knew a lot wouldn't as a spoiler for book readers. Mostly because I believe it is in the GRRM world. I can't bring myself to believe D&B would deviate that much given how the Others are so important to the story.

Yea, I guess a way to look at the Dorne vs Iron Island screen time deal is sex appeal--lol. The Snakes will be a lot sexier than Asha and HBO likes that.

Based on what I know so far, I don't expect S5 to be the best. Actually the kind of season where pieces come together for a very active S6 and 7?? Could be that some of the complaints for S4 come from expectations not met based on some of the best action of the books. I had some issues there plus others--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

@Richard - Yeah, at some point you have to separate your enjoyment of the books to see how it did as a TV show. I rewatched the final 30 minutes of the finale the other night and it was very well done. Without that anticipation of scenes that I was expecting, I was almost able to watch as a TV viewer. Granted, Tyrion coming up through a trap door makes no sense without him having the maps from Varys. Of course, Varys did show Tyrion the maps in season 2 before Blackwater...so he could've memorized them. lol But yeah...I think TV Viewers enjoyed the season much more than book purists did. I still think the performances were awesome as always and the cinematography...never better! Production values are incredible on this show which is again why I stress 10 episodes is good! lol (but as always, I wouldn't complain about more. )

Yeah I agree on "Other baby"...based on their interview they are doing their best to adapt GRRMs world, even the unwritten books....so I agree that it belongs in the show. It just seemed very out of place in what we've seen so far on the show. But, it serves as a reminder that this IS a fantasy show disguised as a medieval drama. ONCE again, it's like LOST disguised itself as pretty people trapped on a deserted island and slowly layered in the crazy. People were too committed at that point to get out! lol WINTER IS COMING!!!!

But yeah...we already know season 6/book 6 will have some major battle set pieces (if they follow what GRRM set up in books 4 and 5)...and of course the final season would have to have a clash of the ultimate ice and fire forces (one would think). Of course, most of the time GoT's best work is in those character building moments...and there's certainly plenty of that in books 4 and 5 for them to work with. And, there's a chance they can do it better than the books. I'm cautiously optimistic about the next season!

Gonna try and read that "dueling reviewers" article now. lol

Mike V. said...

Finally read the review...it was entertaining. A good read! I share the sentiments of both of them, but lean more towards Stefan's cautious optimism more than anything. lol

It is a good point that if George needed to...he could stop everything and write straight for 2 years and publish a large book. I know you can't just write without the motivation to write, and he certainly has a lot of balls in the air that he's juggling....but at some point the impression of laziness probably has some validity too.

As I always joke...there is a slim chance that he's really working on both books 6 and 7 and they will be released in time for the show. Those books take a long time to edit, so book 6 could be in editing stage while he's writing ahead for certain characters in book 7..etc... it's possible! Of course, there's no telling that a book 8 isn't in his thoughts also. It'll go until the character stories reach their conclusion. And it's the editor that says when it's time to compile some chapters and publish it as a book.

I did like the original name of the final book being called "A Time for Wolves" instead of "A Dream of Spring" I guess there's a chance both titles could still be in play. lol

Anonymous said...

Wow, I didn't know that--A Time for Wolves as final book. No wonder you've got Starks on the brain--LOL.

I was hoping(maybe totally illogically) last few weeks that he was working on both 6 and 7. He must be as an outline anyway otherwise D&B are going by speculation to a higher degree than I want.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yeah yeah yeah...it's pretty clear the Starks are the family you're inclined to root for in this series! We've been following them since the very beginning. Sure, attention focuses here and there and everywhere but a large portion of the fanbase is invested in the Stark family's well being. The only thing that discourages me of being invested in the Stark family is that GRRM tends to do the unpredictable and kill off who you're rooting for. But, I like to think that he's past that point in the story of throwing us off the scent. I'm sure there are twists to come but I have to think the Stark family will rise again and reclaim Winterfell.

GRRM actually has gone on record saying he "HATES" outlines. lol He just writes. And it's pretty much why he doesn't know when the series will end in book form (i.e. 3 books, 5 books, 7 books...8 books...15 books lol). It keeps changing because he keeps writing where his brain tells him to write. But that said, he has in mind where each character arch ends...so that's what he shares with D&D. At least, that's what he's said in interviews. Of course, there could be slews of confidentiality agreements signed...where maybe GRRM has told them oh yeah I'm almost done both books but you can't tell people in case I fall behind! So they mask this behind phrases like "we have had extensive talks with George about where the series is going and our job is to adapt the books and his world blah blah blah"

Yes, this is unrealistically optimistic and it most likely is NOT what is happening. But, it is nice to DREAM of Spring. LOL

Mike V. said...

****BOOK SPOILERS***********

Careful...this link includes 24 spoilers. I'm already spoiled because I haven't watched yet. lol

But there are comments about Game of Thrones/Lady Stoneheart at the bottom of the interview that I thought people might find interesting. In other words: it's not looking very good.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/25/michelle-fairley-24-lady-stoneheart/

Anonymous said...

Spoilers-*********
-well, I didn't see any spoilers really since I've already seen 24--lol. But, the Stoneheart stuff seems VERY disappointing. I'm left with a conclusion that only makes me dislike TV Brienne's character even more. I mean she's lost the servant character of the book and now she's riding around with various people thinking she's cool compelled on a meaningless totally laughable mission on TV, but has nothing to do with the story of the books and oh yea--did I mention that she agrees--10 eps--can't do the books justice--lol.

Thanks for posting!!!

SErious, I like GoT, but I don't have to like it if they screw it up. And while D&D have a LOT of good cred built up, it doesn't take long to loose it.

Although, Lady Catelyn is not Lady Stoneheart, hmm--so would it be a new character??

Richard

Mike V. said...

*****BOOK STUFF*****

Yes, she said "there are 'only' 10 episodes per season". That's not necessarily complaining! lol

Look, 10 episodes per book (and 20 for book 3) is still better than a 3 hour movie per book! This certainly works better as a TV show than a film franchise. But they are almost movie quality episodes. So you have 10 hours of film per season. Asking for more is just greedy...and I'll say it again....it would DELAY the start of a season rather than shorten the cycle between seasons! lol You'd have to take the good with the bad.

It is disheartening though. LS seems to be a big character with more coming in the books. Plus...the Brotherhood without Banners and Brienne were both involved and both have been introduced on the show. Now, I have no idea. Of course Michelle F. could be lying, but it doesn't sound that way at least in print.

I gotta give D&D credit for sticking to the books so closely as long as they have. This really is the first season where they've had to branch out a bit. I wouldn't want the duty of being in that writers room trying to figure out how to make 10 episodes of this show and how to keep book fans happy while still fitting things into a television format and making it understandable and relatable to a TV only audience. I think there's a lot more that goes into that than we realize as consumers of the product. But, sure...it is our right to be disappointed too! lol

New character? Interesting...but I dunno. lol

I was reading a synopsis of AFFC the other day and I noticed Brienne stumbled upon Gendry at one point too. (of course he's still with the brotherhood in the books) Anyway, maybe she'll still come in contact with Him and/or that crew. But yeah...if Jaime ends up in Dorne...there's not really a point for LS. But that's all just speculation right now.

I guess the good news is...the more that the show differs from the book in season 5 the more we can enjoy seasons 6 and 7 without thinking the Book plot will be tarnished for us! lol

Mike V. said...

*******BOOK STUFF*******

Similar interview with TV Line...different tone to the answers lol (last 2 questions)

http://tvline.com/2014/06/25/24-live-another-day-michelle-fairley-game-of-thrones-lady-stoneheart/#

Anonymous said...

This link sounds like she's for sure not got a deal to do LS.
Good point about hard to be disappointed about book divergences when there's no book--LOL. I guess my take on that would be spoilers for book readers. But, the TV deal has been what's really made this whole fantasy such a big deal, so maybe the book readers should just be quiet and accept the position we're in--lol???

I wonder which group is larger--1those that are book readers and will be good with the TV show moving ahead and in a way happier because there's no divergence vs 2 those who will not be happy due to spoilers for book readers???

You and I have always said the big story is not the squabbling between the houses, but the ice and fire war on the way. I say that to help myself just take a chill pill so to speak and understand that's very likely what's going on here. And the Other baby and a few other things are likely some scenes where D&B have tried to communicate that to the TV viewers.

D&D know a LOT more than we do about where this story is going and there is only so much screen time so sorting through what to show S4, S5 and so forth likely takes all that into account. You're right a 3 hour movie is not as good as 10 ep season. That I understand and is obvious. What bothers me is that for example, the Brienne storyline does not qualify under that line of reasoning but seems to be more for TV audience viewers and it will be an even bigger divergence vs something new and unknown. That line of reasoning also indicates spoilers for book readers for plotlines/characters not covered. Also, I just don't like Brienne's actor as she seems more cold than anything else. ie, when they diverge on the storyline, why couldn't they have kept the Hound and killed off Brienne--LOL.

Richard

Mike V. said...

That was kinda my point but I was going in a different direction too. The more characters they kill that are still alive in the books and vice versa and the more plots they change, the more different the 2 end products will be.

Sure, they may both deal with a battle of Dragons vs. White Walkers and maybe some people will end up in positions we assumed (bad or good)....but the details of how they all got there could be totally different.

I was trying to say that we might NOT be as spoiled as we think we will. But you do raise a good point that D&D know what storylines are the most important so that leads us to question if other stories we thought were important in the books aren't that important. lol

Regardless, I'm going to keep watching the show if the books aren't out yet. And I will absolutely read the books when they're released. So, it's just a question on if enjoyment of either will be ruined. I doubt it. But, we'll have to wait and see! lol As to your question on numbers....it's a good question. All I know is, there will be a vocal presence in both corners on the interwebs! lol

Mike V. said...

*** BOOK STUFF****

GRRM on Winds of Winter (Book 6). No date announced but he talks about what is coming.

http://shelf-life.ew.com/2014/06/26/george-r-r-martin-winds-winter-tease/

Good news on what he has to say about Tyrion though. Sounds like he'll be back to the personality we enjoy! Maybe even Dany too. Ugh...I'm ready to read it George! lol

Anonymous said...

********book stuff**********

Thanks for posting link. Yea, we knew the books would tend to make S5 less active than S6. Love the battle stuff coming up. It would be absolutely great if Dany lost to the Yunkai--LOL. I mean what a shocker it would be.

Richard

Mike V. said...

***BOOK STUFF***

Yikes, that would be very shocking. Would that be something GRRM would do? Kill off Dany even though she is suspected to be a huge character in the end game?

Hmm...I guess it's possible that Dany may have 'given birth' to the Dragons...but if Jon ends up being revealed as a T and of course there is AT....she's not the LAST dragon. Plus, Bran will probably warg with a dragon (you'll never walk again, but you will fly). It is possible that maybe Dany doesn't make it to the end of the series. Never really thought about it!

Anonymous said...

Speculation*******some spoiliers********

Yea, Dany's fight with the Yunkai will change something in a dramatic way. She either survives or dies of course. If she lives and moves onto Westeros, it kind of makes the HUGE?? battle kind of anti climatic. That is, everyone(including me) has always expected her to win there and move onto Westeros. But that's not guaranteed and would be kind of a yawn if she did. With TV Sansa looking all black and in charge now and Cersei drinking/crumbling without her Dad--the TV show doesn't have to have Dany as the alpha female--and don't forget Brienne's weird storyline(could be because of end game with Starks?). And yes, Bran will likely control the dragons, kind of like calling in modern day CAS--lol. This combined Sansa and Bran thing could give hope to the Stark fans. Of course Jon too with his heritage. I haven't forgotten AT, but I'm not absolutely sure he'll be cast--lol. If that part is cast it will tell us a lot.

The Dorne/Martell stuff could be interesting in that there could be a T yet to be revealed in book 6--something has to be important somehow and there's a lot of variety in the heritage of the generation that seems to be coming into power??

Tyrion of course is married to Sansa(although not consummated) and I think he will find his way back to support her??

Of course you've got Bravos/bank covered with the new faceless Arya--I haven't thought this part out yet really. But Stannis will stay involved maybe through his daughter somehow, I think.

Richard

Mike V. said...

****BOOK STUFF (Speculation)******

All good points with Dany vs. the Yunkai. The more I keep thinking about it....the more I think she could be expendable and agree with your points. her big thing was bringing Dragons into the world, and we know dragons are essential to the end game. But, that doesn't mean Dany has to be part of it.

I'm sure Dorne plays a significant role in the end game....but in the short term, there is the Myrcella (sp) follow-up in the TV show that they have to get to. Tyrion did ship her off to Dorne. And now with Oberyn dead, there is fallout there.

Yes, there could be another T revealed. Of course, we kind of speculate about TL but as always it seems like having that AND JS be T's under similar secret circumstances is unlikely.

I could see Tyrion/Sansa meeting up again. At some point, the world does need to "contract" as they've been saying the show will. lol You know we'll be near the end when the surviving Starks are together again. Of course, maybe that'll never happen. But, I hope it will.

Arya - I just assume she'll come back to Westeros as a full-fledged assassin and many hope that she'll be the one to take out Cersei. It would be a shame if she didn't get to take out some of the main people on her list.

Anonymous said...

Speculation****************

OH wow, I didn't think about it for some reason. Arya taking out Cersei, that would be great. I just assumed Cersei would go mad and be locked up in a tower somewhere. But, I think they will have RS--sooo that adds complications. He can't die--at least until he does--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

SPECULATION******************


Well, she may still go mad and get locked away....but I could see arya still killing her. Maybe the dragons will be in town scorching King's Landing, and Arya is just sneaking around in the midst of it all and slaying people on her list.

Was drawing a blank on who RS is....but, I assume you mean the youngest one who is MIA right now. Yeah, I still think he exists mainly to continue the succession of the Stark Family when they hopefully reclaim the North. We'll see!

Anonymous said...

**************Spoilers********************

RS--Robert Strong. New Maester at work on him.

RS you mentioned--lol. Yea I agree.

Richard

Mike V. said...

****SPOILERS*****

wow...cant believe I didn't pick that up. good call

Well technically THAT RS is on Arya's list too. lol

Anonymous said...

Speculation*******************

Watch for a storyline where Bran can warg very far away or somehow the dragons come to him or he goes to the dragons. I'm thinking he'll have long range warg powers and be able to sense things. He also saw the throne room in the same condition as Dany saw the throne room.

Bran could also effect RS.

Aren't the Reeds knowledgeable about JS's heritage?

Richard

Mike V. said...

******spoiler*******

Yes apparently howland reed was with Ned in the tower of joy so some believe he's the one that knows the truth of Jon snow's parentage.

Interesting thoughts on warging ranges. But considering he'll be tapped into a network I guess it's possible! Lol not sure if that network reaches essos though.

Anonymous said...

Speculation********************************************

What if--lol--OK, serious speculation, but what if GRRM is holding back on book 6 to keep spoilers away from TV show? Particularly if Dany is killed. If book readers knew Dany were to be killed, I think several TV viewers wrapped up in that storyline would be very disappointed. There could be some other storyline that they may be waiting to develop before release of book 6? And maybe the whole notion of timing the book 6 and even 7 release is crazy?

Richard

Richard

Mike V. said...

No spoiler warning needed here. Some are speculating that grrm may wait for the most opportune time to release the book. ie if season 5 finishes the book plots then why not release book 6 a month after it ends and then all fans of the show and book could buy the next book to see what happens next. Makes sense as long as the plots haven't diverged too drastically. Makes even more sense if d and d get an advanced copy to start preproduction on season 6.

So it could be a combination of that and what you said. But we could all just be being highly optimistic! But that's the best way to be in my opinion! Lol

Anonymous said...

Exactly, wait until people are clamoring for it on both sides--TV and book readers!! So, my thoughts aren't totally crazy. So many good reasons to wait on the release.

I think D&D are getting pre release info, all of it available. GRRM must be working ok to pretty well with D&D or HBO wouldn't be pursuing him for another deal.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Spoilers from GRRM******************************

From a story excerpt from GRRM:

"Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they're still apart. They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn't entirely sure of during the last book, and he's now working toward that end — if he can survive the battle that's breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they're both coming home."

It seems that all live, but I find it hard to believe that GRRM is really telling us how the battle for Mereen ends for Dany in the long run. He just doesn't give away spoilers like that, especially for such a big battle. But who knows--lol?????????

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yup all good points on the book release and what D&D have access to. It will be great if on the season 6 or 7 dvd/blu-ray special features they go behind the scenes and explain what they had access to and how. That process would be really interesting.

*****SPOILERS*******


Right, that's from the link I posted I think. Definitely sounds like Dany will make it but you never know! You also never know how long the battle of Mereen may last. lol

Of course, perhaps the Dothraki will get enlisted in the battle too. He said they come back in a big way.

Anonymous said...

LInk to upcoming shooting,most already known.

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2014/07/02/game-of-thrones-will-film-parts-of-season-five-in-spain/

Spoilers***************************************
To me, the noteworthy item is about the plan for Doran being central.

Richrad

Mike V. said...

*****BOOK DISCUSSION*****

Richard, they were referring to the book not the TV show in regards to Doran. Basically that article just rehashed other articles we've already read! But, my guess is he will be a central character to the Dorne plot. He is a POV character in the books. lol

Anonymous said...

***********spoilers*****************Yea, they refer the the book. But, they call Doran a central character--I hadn't really thought of him that way. I'm wondering if they're calling him central due to the efforst of D&B. I should have taken the time and been more complete in my thought. My thinking is that all of this, the location, the associated screen time, the de emphasis of other plot lines (but particularly the location cost/time in this article) point to the TV show making Doran and the Martell's a bigger part/portion of the story than what I considered them in the books. I had never considered Doran to be central, but that seems to be the case, for D&B to go to such effort/expense.

Richard

Mike V. said...

All I'm saying is that WSJ doesn't have any more information than we do. Whoever wrote the article either read the books or did research about the books and spoke about that character. There is no way around the fact that he is a POV character in A Feast For Crows so that makes him "central".

I wouldn't look into it too much more for clues on where the remainder of the book and TV series is going. They didn't talk to D&D or get any more information for that article.

Mike V. said...

************BOOK STUFF**********


Actually the paragraph referring specifically to AFFC actually says the LOCATION of Dorne is what becomes central lol

"Dorne becomes a central part of the plot in “A Song of Ice and Fire” in book four, “A Feast for Crows,” as the region’s sovereign, the patient and cautious Prince Doran Martell, makes his play for power and vengeance in the treacherous world of Westerosi politics."

But the Doran stuff is right on and accurate to what was in the books.

The preceding paragraph where they say D&D are excited to go to Dorne, they link to the EW article we already read. That's where they got their intel. It was no NEW information for this specific article.

That's all I'm saying. There was no leak of new information. lol

Anonymous said...

*************speculation********************

Do you think Doran will become more central than in the books? That's really the heart of why I brought it up. I even say we know most of this stuff in the original post.

Richard

Mike V. said...

****BOOK STUFF****


We really don't know the extent of how important he is in the books yet. But, I guess that's the point of why you bring it up. He certainly seems to have been brought up for a reason. I believe they're loyal to the Targaryans aren't they? So it could be Dany's way back into Westeros.

While his chapters weren't very interesting in the books, compared to following the characters we were already familiar with...I would say it most certainly is important in the scheme of things.

Considering the fact that the producers of the show have gone on record saying they love all things Dorne, it may have nothing to do with HOW important it is to the story vs. something that might translate well to television and they could MAKE it more important. lol

But regardless of importance, I would've expected Prince Doran to be a character in the show due to his key involvement in the books.

Mike V. said...

From MJ on the general post:

"GofT http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/03/travel/spain-game-of-thrones/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

"

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the post. That will be great and no CGI required--lol.

Love the hint on resurrections

Richard

Mike V. said...

Adding another Breaking Bad director (among other jobs) to the GoT directing arsenal. No, this doesn't mean Alex Graves is getting demoted. lol

http://www.marieclaire.com/blog/game-of-thrones-season-5?src=spr_FBPAGE&spr_id=1449_69797753

They still have Michelle McClaren from BB fame too.

It's a shame they lost Alan Taylor to the movies. He was the go to guy in seasons 1 and 2.

Anonymous said...

You noticed Alex didn't get hired away--LOL,LOL. But, they made it sound like he's good--I've usually ended up going the opposite of most critics assessments, lol. But no Alex for S5, he says he'll be back for S6, but that's a long ways off and you're only as good as your last gig.

Interesting comment on divergence.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Funny, I didn't even see the line that he was taking a season off. lol

Did you click on the link about divergence? Definitely some interesting quotes from D&D. But not unexpected
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/s151/game-of-thrones/news/a578143/game-of-thrones-season-5-could-veer-away-from-the-books.html#~oJmyQIVRoTGG9s

Anonymous said...

Interesting how old that link is. I hadn't clicked on it. I'm curious as to what is soo costly to produce for S5. It's not like there's huge battles, etc.

Richard

Mike V. said...

There isn't in the book, but in that link they talk a lot about going off book. They're probably going to "create" battles of some sort...or possibly lots of CGI sequences (perhaps time with the dragons/walkers?)

Anonymous said...

Yea, exactly--they may create some kind of battle, that's what I was wondering along with creating other stuff. Could be absolutely crazy, but I'm hoping not the case.

Your point on White Walkers and Dragons is excellent. I hadn't thought of that. I could see them becoming more of a portion of a season and S5 would be good to really get the normal viewer into what they're about. Which would set up S6 well.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yeah...I wouldn't imagine any LARGE battles next season as that director that did both Blackwater and The Wall battles said he wasn't asked back for season 5 and mentioned "no big battles" or something like that in his interview. But there could be lots of expensive fight shots they might want to go for.

But yeah...I could totally see them doing some dragon/walker stuff. And that certainly would get expensive! I'm sure just trying to bring Braavos to life could get expensive but would be awesome to do so (unless they're going to film in Venice. lol)

Anonymous said...


YOu have got to see this video on making GoT
http://winteriscoming.net/



Good Article on GoT--10 reasons we watch-lol. I wouldn't have picked these same 10, btw.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2014/07/08/deeper-than-swords-10-reasons-were-so-addicted-to-game-of-thrones/


Richard

Mike V. said...

Thanks for the links.

I'll have to check out the video later, doesn't let me at work! lol

I skimmed the article but most of those seem like decent reasons to watch. It may be simplistic but I'd add these to my personal list: 1.) I read the books. 2.) This is a genre I like to watch.

lol

Mike V. said...


Oohhhhh boy...he'll get some heat for this. lol But, I'd probably react the same way if I was in his shoes.

http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/07/09/george-rr-martin-f-you/

Anonymous said...

NO best actor/actress emmy nominees for GoT

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2014/07/10/emmy-nominees-list/12428631/

I didn't feel it was as good of a season as in the past.

Richard

Anonymous said...

OK, so I'm not an emmy watcher so didn't realize there are as many categories as can be imagined--lol. So, if you include the emmys for every little thing, GoT got 20 nominations, which I guess is pretty good. To me, I guess there are 4 "real" categories--the show itself, the director and actor/actress. The rest is kind of like rewarding second stringers--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

I meant to post earlier..but yeah GoT is leading in nominations. And it DID get acting nods in the supporting category.

Dinklage always gets nominated, but Lena Heady (Cersei) got nominated this year too.

Many were hoping for Charles Dance and The Red Viper to get recognized too.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/10/emmy-nominations-2014/

I know you weren't a fan this season being a book fan...but critically this was the most well received season to date.

Mike V. said...

As for winning Best Drama..probably not in the cards for GoT. The final season of Breaking Bad was as perfect as things can get. Plus going against True Detective (Which I'd probably argue should be considered a mini-series since season 2 will be completely different and that's how American Horror Story has been submitting itself) and Mad Men....it's gonna be one of those 3. I'd put money on Breaking Bad. And I think they probably submitted Ozymandius over the finale (Which I know means nothing to you) as many regard it as one of the best episodes of television...EVER.

I'm very confused how Treme got submitted under Mini-Series when that's an ongoing series. Something is truly messed up with the Emmy submission rules! lol

Mike V. said...

Oh yeah..Diana Rigg got nominated for Lady Olenna under Guest Star too. That's another weird category. Some series regulars of Orange is the New Black got nominated as guest actors. lol

Mike V. said...

Tcas are starting this week. HBO is starting to get the word out there about how they will approach the future of the show. Bottom line: they're not concerned lol

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/10/game-of-thrones-hbo-book/

But good to see they're going to consult George a lot.

Anonymous said...

They're still saying no to the movie. It would cheapen HBO's status if they did a movie in a way, at least for the subscribers. And they're in a battle for eyeballs now.

Interesting about working with George and that goes along with a recent article where George says he's involved with the show and that's hurting him with writing.

It kind of paints a picture of where the TV show finishes before the books. That will make it fun for our posts since there won't be any more book spoilers--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

It certainly will be interesting. I just think people are convinced that if the show ends before the books it will spoil the books. But considering GRRM hasn't written the details of the books yet I think they could certainly end differently. That, in a way, is great, but also sucks. So it's great so that the book experience isn't spoiled. But awful because in the end...a show that was 90% faithful to the books couldn't end in a similar fashion.

I also heard a quote from the TCAs where they said "we're not talking about ending the show in 2 years". Probably means while they've discussed it as an estimate, they're not actively planning to end the show. And why would they? It's their biggest hit. Of course, that was similar with LOST. ABC would've run that show into the ground if Damon/Carlton didn't argue that they couldn't sustain the quality of the show forever and that the thing had an expiration. So, it'll be a tug of war between George, D&D and HBO to figure out what's best for the show.

Anonymous said...

I am sure George will want the show to have more seasons. That way stretching it out allows more time for the books and more time for a broader story. I think he's also enjoying the "ride at the top" so to speak and so why would he want it to end. D&D are the ones doing all the heavy lifting--lol.

REgardless of which finishes first, books or TV, they will end the same for the major plot lines. As far as who's on the throne for a certain time frame, etc. So, one will "spoil" the other for those aspects. The books will certainly have a broader storyline covering more material and in more detail. And as we have already seen, some things will just be different--lol.

AS George said, he's involved in the show to the point that it's slowing writing his books(basically) So, it won't be hugely different otherwise they wouldn't need him?

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yeah... I know. I just can't help thinking GRRM will not want certain details of his book spoiled on the TV show before the book is released. I think that will be part of the negotiations.

Things like Jon snow's mother, who is officially on the throne, who lives/dies....those are big reveals for the book. Readers have invested decades in this series only to have it spoiled by the TV show? I just don't see it.

Yes, the fact that entire storylines will be eliminated from the show may factor into HOW things play out in TV vs. Book. Like maybe Dany dies at the hands of a dragon in the show but an ironborn will kill her in the books. (That would never happen, but my extreme point is intentional lol) But in both cases, a major character in the story dies. I dunno...it's still a big deal to know that before it happens in the book.

And for book fans who have slowly put together the details of Jon's parents...to have it not built up in as much detail on the show but revealed all the same...would be kind of anticlimactic don't you think?

I'm not claiming to have the solution, but it's going to be really weird. I think at this point I'm committed to the show and can't just "STOP WATCHING" like some claim they will do.

Anonymous said...

I get your points and many share them.

I absolutely think Jon's parents IF they are key to the end game, will be revealed on the TV show whether or not done so in the books by time of broadcast. That's the key, they will show whatever is necessary for the ending to make sense.

I believe the end game will be the same for the major issues of who rules when. And the when is important. For example, the TV show could end at a certain point and the books take it a step further in time with another ending, but having "covered" the ending on the TV show?

We have agreed that the TV show has cut certain events that were in the book because they were not key to the overall storyline. EVen though we thought they were important storylines. In a way that is a spoiler for book readers. That's one reason the casting of AT is an important piece of information. That whole storyline might prove to be not so important.

BTW, I personally believe Jon's parents will become an issue next season. We'll soon find out for sure.

Richard

Mike V. said...

The thing is Jon's parentage has only been brought in question directly ONCE in the show in like episode 2 where Ned says ask me about your mother the next time we see each other. Then Oberyn brought up some points to Tyrion in a season 4 episode that could lead people to theorize a little further. But only if people are paying attention. Other than that, the plot could be removed and only annoy book reader fans without TV viewers really noticing much.

But as for cut storylines...it could be a spoiler but it also couldn't. See my "Dany Death" scenario (again not spoiling, just using an example for anyone else reading this lol).....Just because the iron born may not feature prominently as much as they do in the books they may factor into something HUGE that someone else will just end up doing in the TV show. So the end result may be the same but how they get there could be totally different.

We'll just have to see how it plays out I guess! We really won't know how much has spoiled the books until the books come out. lol

Mike V. said...

Official s5 directors list. Even Michelle mcclaren is taking a season off. Crazy.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/07/16/game-of-thrones-season-5-directors-revealed

Mike V. said...

Same Director information but provided by James Hibberd lol

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/15/game-of-thrones-season-5-directors/

Anonymous said...

Thanks for posting, I've read some of that too. Michelle has a new big gig I think. I'm so happy about no Alex and we understand about the "battle director", he'll likely come back for S6.

All of this continues to point to a different feel for S5. I'm expecting the show to have a significant difference as the story changes so much and then looks like it may change even moreso than the books.

It will be interesting how GoT does in maintaining it's audience which has expectations based on the last 4 seasons and/or the books.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Totally agree there might be a different feel. But, I think the audience is there now and will stick with it. But, as far as discrepencies between book and show, that remains to be seen how far they'll depart from the source material. Even if book fans become disgruntled they'll keep on hate watching. lol So it'll be a question to if TV Only Viewers sense that the material is not up to par with what has come before. I'm sure even regardless of how they tell the story, it will still remain somehow faithful to GRRM's vision. But in that sense, the TV show has an opportunity to be more focused than George's past 2 books were.

Anonymous said...

LOL on GRRM's focus with last 2 books. Yea D&D talk about scope reduction and yet GRRM's still expanding--lol,lol--just can't help it.

Yea, I too think most of the audience will stick with it. But, to loose any would not be good. They want a big budget for S6 I bet. Given how I seem to be out of step sometimes, it may just be that S5 will attract the biggest audience--lol.

Have you been keeping upwith TWOW releases. I just read some things about Stannis Baratheon's activities that were interesting. Have you ever thought about any possible implications with him being from Dragonstone??

Richard

Mike V. said...

Expanding..are you LOL'ing on his waistline? lol

Judging by the fact that Game of Thrones' ratings increasing every season I would assume season 5 would be its biggest season too. lol


****BOOK STUFF******

TWOW - You mean the chapters GRRM released? I've read Arya, Barristan and Tyrion chapters I think. But there's an Arianne and a Theon chapter out there too I think. Don't know much about Stannis...last I heard he was marching through a snow storm. lol

Anonymous said...

LOL, waistline too. And it seems he is adding more characters and plotlines in the last two books. I have read where D&D want to condense from now going forward whereas GRRM keeps expanding his world.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yeah we both read that. But that at least doesn't mean not to introduce more characters. They certainly are doing that. But yes, I could see them bringing characters together more quickly than the books and moving towards the end game. But there is still time to do that after season 5. lol (and maybe not introducing the Ironborn will help with that!)

****BOOK STUFF****

Forgot to answer your Dragonstone question. I think the only pondering I've done about it is when you bring up that he has King's Blood and all of that. Nothing beyond that. What have you read or are you thinking?

Mike V. said...

Book Theory (possible Show theory), but probably safe not to watch if you want to remain spoiler free.

Nice video summing up R+L = J

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/15/jon-snow-mother-game-of-thrones_n_5588011.html

Anonymous said...

Maybe Spoilers*******************************************

Great Video!!! Thanks for sharing. I liked the stuff on the flower and coming from the cracks in the wall.

I hadn't thought of JS being both ice and fire--part fire maybe but I've thought of fire as dragons but could see Targaryeans given their dragon heritage, and not ice since I'm not sure how Stark gives you ice. Except maybe they're from the North. I've always thought of the ice as being the WW/Others.

Stannis stuff--well, just wondering from doing more reading/research and his possible key position shaping up in TWOW. He's from Dragonstone, the home of the Targaryeans--fire in a way. I've always discounted his future but he seems to be the long slow play if you will? And him being from Dragonstone while I didn't even consider it as a deal at all, may actually be a big deal?? He is currently the most legitimate heir to the throne and that's why the bank is backing him(now that they don't see the Lanister's paying up). In TWOW he's also made a big deal about Shireen's(daughter) future if something happens to him. Which plays into yet another thought--LOL. And that is--it is her generation, the Arya's, Jon Snow's that will come to power in the end. Dany is Jon's Aunt and so of the generation that might not be in power in the end. I know, the above is a compilation of random thoughts it seems, but all actually have some thought into them--lol. Think on this again, Dany is known as a mother--another "hint" that she is not going to be in the generation that comes to power?? Due to their age, I keep thinking of Dany and JS as having equal opportunity. But this video reminded yet again of another reason to question Dany's future---I know a big reach maybe--lol

I hadn't seen Jon sitting on the throne because of his Watch vows. But, if they throw him out, maybe that opens the doors? My bet is that he will stay in the Watch.

As we know, there are some key characters not introduced so far and if they aren't introduced soon obviously D&D are not following the expansion but are instead contracting. I am thinking the Dorne stuff is more important than I realized and this video again reminded me of Rhaegar/Martell deal. I forgot they were married.

What have you found in TWOW so far that gives hints about future KIng's/Queens?

Richard

Mike V. said...

****MAYBE SPOILERS***** (Speculation)

No problem on the video. I have a feeling that's going to go viral and TV fans will become more aware of the theory too. lol

Yeah I guess ICE = White Walkers makes sense. But Starks = Ice kinda makes sense too...even Ned Stark's sword's name was ICE.

Interesting speculation about Stannis. He could definitely be more important than we give him credit for. As for the kids...it does certainly seem like there is an importance placed on the children in this story. But, I guess you're talking more about for the throne than that that they simply have a large role to play in the story. I mean sure, eventually these children are heirs to whatever...so it would make sense that one of these kids could inherit the throne. But, is that the story that Ice/Fire will tell? Possibly I guess. lol

BTW...not sure if you noticed the comments on that youtube video, but one of the most popular suggestions for the dude's next video is to prove out how Tyrion may be a T as well. lol

Yeah, Jon being in the watch is an issue for him to claim the throne. But his role may be more of a tragic hero type. He may fulfill one of these prophecies, unite houses or what not....but I don't think he'll be heir to the throne and he may die a heroes death doing whatever he needs to do. Of course, those are traditional tropes that maybe GRRM wants to subvert like everything else. lol But yeah...I don't think he'd willingly abandon the watch.

Yeah..I sometimes forget Rhaegar was married too...but he definitely already had children...so Jon would still be a bastard either way...unless he secretly married Llyana too. And of course...we know...one of Rhaegar's children MAY NOT have been killed. It's hard to know what to believe in ADWD. (AT)

I haven't found much giving clues to anything. Obviously GRRM wouldn't leak out significant chapters from the book that give away major plot points. Arya gets revenge on a person on her list (in the most awesome way) in the chapter I read...Tyrion was preparing for battle I think. Barristan the same (I'm not even sure if I read a Barristan chapter or not...that may have been ADWD lol)

Anonymous said...

Speculation

I did not notice about Tyrion, but we've posted a little about it. That would be great if he was.

Love your recalling the sword ICE. Just adds to complex storyline--lol. But, it's gone now, so sad.

Yea, we've been wondering about AT if he'll even be in the show--LOL. Part of possible D&D contraction vs GRRM expansion???? Wouldn't it be interesting if Tyrion were found to be a stand in sort of for AT in the TV adaption???

Richard

Mike V. said...

Speculation

Ahhh interesting....I could definitely see TL standing in for AT pending those theories end up being true. Of course...that again would spoil a big reveal from the books before it was released too. But, I guess that's just going to be bound to happen.

There is one line in season 3 I think...where Tyrion and Tywin have a conversation....Tywin makes a comment, "Since I can't prove you aren't my son" or something like that. It could be seen as just him insulting Tyrion as always, but it could also be taken on a completely other level.

I think there were some subtle hints on the books that the Mad King had a thing for Tywin's wife too. We just didn't know if she reciprocated (voluntarily or involuntarily)

Anonymous said...

Speculation&****************

I took those lines from Tywin as just that, if he could only prove he wasn't his son. When you look at Jamie and Cersei, blonde hair and Tywin/Joanna with light hair along with the investigation on hair done by Ed. It makes you think. Then I realized that Targaryeans and Lannisters both have light colored hair. So, hard to prove as Ed was doing with his search protocol anyway--lol.

Very interesting about Rhaegar and Joanna. I did some checking and it seems it may have actually been AerysII. Which would make Dany and Tyrion half brother and sister--lol. Which makes my thoughts on AT and Tyrion much less plausible since it was supposed to be Rhaegar and Elia for AT

Richard

Mike V. said...

Speculation*******


Hair done by Ed? Is that some fashion guru? lol Yeah...I know the one thing they didn't do from the books was give the Targaryans violet colored eyes. It would've been too difficult. But hair is similar. Though Jaime and Tyrion's hair has gotten darker over the seasons...in the pilot episode they were both CLEARLY blondes. Of course, I didn't chalk this up to anything plot-related more than just style. lol

Yeah Aerys II is the Mad King, right? That's what the rumor/theory is that he is Tyrion's father. Of course if that's the case, then Tyrion would be a bastard too. AT would still be a possible heir to the throne, being Rhaegar's son through marriage.

Anonymous said...

Speculatoin*******************************
Yea, AErysII was nuts, one that Jamie killed. Don't you just love how this could all be related--lol. Aerys thought he would turn into a dragon or at least live through the fire. Little did Jamie know that given what Dany did, Aerys could very well have been right. I guarantee you that if Jamie were to have seen Dany walk into fire, he would have thought her nuts too!! I hope this is one of those storylines that gets developed since I think most people have forgotten the "magic" of Dany living through fire. Even on the show as characters, those who saw her do that are not so much around her any more.

Great point on the eyes, I remember you commenting years ago how you wished they had them with violet eyes.

I think a Dany/Tyrion sister/brother relationship would be kind of neat. It would bring together two of the more followed characters. It would be very cool for Tyrion to be part of a ruling group that dealt with Cersei. Now if Dany and Tyrion do what Targaryens do such as procreate, that would even be more fun--lol. I know though, there are a lot more people pulling for a John/Dany relationship, if they only knew that could be another Targaryen type relationship--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Speculation*******************

True, Aerys could've been right but I always just assumed it meant that Dany was always special and he wasn't necessarily. And even if he did survive he would've killed the population of King's Landing in the process. lol Surely Dany's magic will get touched on more in some way....especially if she's somehow part of the prophecy.

As for eyes...I could be mistaken, but I think Tyrion in the books has 2 different colored eyes....and one might be violet right???

I could be mistaken again, but didn't Dany lose the ability to have children when she lost her child to keep Drogo "alive"? Yeah there are certainly some Jon/Dany shippers....this is one story where I don't really SHIP anyone.....maybe Arya and Gendry but there's an age gap there in the books...and even the show. lol

Anonymous said...

Speculation***********maybe some spoilers*

AErys and Dany both may have died in the fire with the difference being the dragon eggs for Dany--that it was the magic of the dragons?? It's fun to speculate and I think before it all ends, we'll know a lot more.

I think you're right, Tyrion does have 2 different colored eyes. BTW, Cersei also heard a prophecy where her younger brother would take her life and she thought that was Tyrion. Buttresses my crazy point on Tyrion taking Cersei out.

Dany may have lost ability to get pregnant, but in this show I am not sure that will be the case long term due to "magic"--lol.

You have to admit thought that Dany/Tyrion being related would be neat?

I have read some TWOW where it appears AT wins his battle.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Speculations/Spoilers************


Good point on the Eggs. Though in the show didn't we see Dany steppin into a scalding hot bath and not getting burned? I don't remember if the dragons were present there.

I forgot about that prophecy...though I still like the idea of Arya killing Cersei too....but you never know, Arya and Tyrion may team up before the end of this. They're both in Essos right now.

I thought the same on Dany and pregnancy. We'll see!

Yes Dany/Tyrion being related would be interesting. But, it's a little crazy for 2 big reveals of major characters being children of different parents than they thought. lol Well Tyrion would still have the same mother at least.

Interesting on TWOW, I don't think I read that chapter yet.

Anonymous said...

Thought you might find this interesting--we already know this but good to recall--lol

On whether he enjoyed the Red Wedding reaction:
From a GRRM interview, transcribed:

Actually, I want the feeling in my readers that no one is safe. I want them emotionally involved in the books. If the characters are in a difficult or scary situation I want the reader almost to be afraid to turn the next page because they don’t know what’s going to happen. If the character’s going to live or if the character’s going to die.

We know about what should happen next season. It's the new book that I can't wait to read.

Again, Photo Sphere seems to have hijacked the security box

Richard

Anonymous said...

Big Spoiler Potential*******************

GoT actor interview and this actor Sean was great in the show--welcome back I hope.

http://io9.com/did-a-game-of-thrones-actor-just-confirm-a-major-fan-th-1608772727

A more direct link at the end:
http://www.vulture.com/2014/07/sean-bean-legends-game-thrones-chat.html


Seems like we may know how the JS story may be revealed?


Richard

Mike V. said...

****SPOILER STUFF******

I read both comments and definitely agree we've heard all the stuff in the first one!

And that's some crazy Sean Bean quotes. Sounds like he might have read all of the books. There are lots of theories that flashbacks could definitely start this season with Bran in the place where he needs to be. It would be the perfect format for it.

I always thought it could be a good way to provide some of the backstory that would lead to the JS reveal. Sean Bean is on another show though so if anything he'd just be making a cameo appearance I would think. And it may or may not be how it is all revealed in the books.

Anonymous said...

Spoiler************************

I think the fact Sean says he is NOT JS's Dad is key too since it adds confirmation a theory. Particularly for TV only audience.

I had not heard about the flashback tool possibly being used.

Richard

Mike V. said...

SPOILER******

It's really just fan theories...it's not confirmed. But we all just assumed once Bran got to the tree, that could potentially be a way to get into flashbacks and stuff. In the recaps I was very vague just referring to having ideas of where Bran's story could go from here. lol

Sean Bean is an actor, so he's not involved with the writers or GRRM or anything. So, when he says Ned Stark is not Jon's father it can only be assumed as a theory of his too unless they told him that for sure. Now, he may have talked to enough fans to find out that big theory without reading the books (or you know...there's Google lol), but I wouldn't take this as confirmation that it's GRRM Gospel. lol

Anonymous said...

Spoilers:

As I said, it adds confirmation to a theory. It's not gospel. My take is this--he's been asked back to do something and he was told what his role would be--at least somewhat--maybe not. But since he is the big star of Legends now, they likely had to persuade him to come back for some scenes.

REgardless, his coming back for whatever time will help keep the ratings high.

Did you suspect/know he was coming back? I sure didn't have a clue.

Richard

Mike V. said...

***POTENTIAL SPOILERS***

When I hear "confirmation" to a theory I think "confirming the theory is correct". lol We don't need Sean Bean's opinion to solidify the fact that this is a very very popular theory in the realm of Ice and Fire fandom.

From the FULL interview you linked to it sounds like he hasn't been asked back at ALL yet. He was saying he'd be open to it and told the interviewer to make it happen. lol

I thought him coming back is always a possibility depending on if they were going to do flashbacks, but no I didn't assume it was definitely going to happen. And I still don't think we can. lol

Anonymous said...

I did misread that, he was being asked if he could/would do it.

Regardless, his coming back for whatever time will help keep the ratings high.

So the newsie part are the rumors of flashbacks and his take on JS's parentage as well as what the flashbacks might be used for.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yeah, it would be better if it was a surprise with him showing up rather than fans expecting it in a particular episode and/or season. But, the temptation to leak the information to increase ratings might be too much. lol

Anonymous said...

Spoilers Linked*****************************

LOL,LOL,LOL Here's a website calling it confirmation on his fatherhood.

http://lightlybuzzed.com/2014/07/18/sean-bean-reveals-biggest-game-thrones-spoiler-ever/?utm_source=FanSided&utm_medium=Network&utm_campaign=FS%20Widget

I don't feel so bad now.

And yes, the Ned stuff would help ratings and as I said earlier, S5 might be harder to get the typical ever higher ratings-- given the material.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Given the "SOURCE" material. I think the TV Show ratings will continue to go up and the writing team will play to the show's strenths. Now, if Season 5 ends up unsatisfactory on a whole, then maybe the ratings will drop in season 6. But going in...most people will expect more of the same and some crazy 9th episode to blow them away. lol

Anonymous said...

I thought you were also concerned about the Source material for S5, ie no big battles, no red wedding, etc?

Richard

Mike V. said...

I am concerned and I didn't say anything to say I'm not. I just said I think the ratings will continue to increase in season 5. If the season ends up being subpar, then maybe we'll start to see the first downward trend. But, I think most fans have come to expect lots of slow periods between big events (Season 4 was a bit of an exception with some big moments scattered throughout). If nothing exciting has happened before episode 9, people might expect a big episode 9. If it's still a letdown...and the finale is too...then yeah maybe they'll start to lose people.

But we don't know what they're cooking up. There's still some decent character stuff in books 4 and 5 that will convey well to the TV show. Sure, there are not many BIG MOMENTS to build towards except near the end of book 5....and maybe just the buildup to what could happen in season 6 will be exciting enough. Plus, they're going to add their own crap in too. Maybe it'll be better than the Night's Watch/Craster stuff they came up with this year.

And..who knows? Maybe they're holding LS as a big shocker for later in season 5.

Anonymous said...

I don't hold myself out as a TV guru, so keep that in mind when I say the following. You say that the source material is not as good, but that the audience will continue to grow. I'm guessing that seeming divergence is due to better writing/acting/intrigue or something. Because what I've seen lately is that a show can loose an audience pretty quickly with the new media effects out there. That is, the carryover/goodwill/momentum from the prior year is not what it used to be? We are not as patient as we used to be.

I'm hoping and thinking that the JS, LS, Whitewalker, Dragon and new Bravos/ Essos stuff will be new, different and exciting enough to build the audience. But, I am afraid it may not be "bigger" than before and so disappoint--I don't know. In essence it's hard for me to believe that S5 can hurt the show in S5 as any show could hurt itself within one season.

One thing I've tried asking myself with this is--would Lost have survived one of it's low seasons today as well as it did 10 years ago??? Again, I don't know but we sure seem even more impatient and critical and more people have ways of communicating crap.

Richard

Anonymous said...

I should have said..... In essence it's NOT hard for me to believe that S5 can hurt the show in S5....

Richard

Mike V. said...

I don't really think Lost HAD a low point. Many will point to the first half of season 3. And the ratings certainly did drop.

But pay cable and sometimes basic cable has been trending differently than Network TV.

Dexter's ratings kept going up in the latter seasons even though the quality was getting worse. It's why they kept it on so long. Walking Dead's ratings doubled in size in season 2 but most people thought it was the low point of the series.

Game of Thrones's ratings have increased every year. There are LOTS of book readers, but there are MORE TV viewers. And there's even many who DON'T read what the media has to say. Sure, with Facebook, twitter and other social media it's easier to reach the masses more quickly....but there is a fanbase out there that doesn't not care in the least about the books. If D&D make compelling television, the ratings will continue to soar. And if they don't, they may continue to rise anyway. I can guarantee the season 5 premiere ratings will be bigger than anything Game of Thrones has seen yet because even more people will catch up in the off season. If they can hold onto those ratings? Well, we'll see...but I think they will and I think they'll continue to grow.

You have to remember, they're not adapting the source material word for word...you know that, so I'm not sure why I'm saying you have to remember. There was GOOD source material, but it was all over the place with how George ended up writing it (over 2 books, and geographically just all over the place...hard to find a narrative). D&D and crew can pull the best of the material from the 2 books and create a compelling season of television. There's good stuff in there. You just have to pick it out of the mess. lol

I've been saying that I think season 5 of Game of Thrones may actually go over a lot better than books 4 and 5 with the fat they'll be able to trim.

This also goes back to me being optimistic about most things. You call me a Lindelof lover...but this is me just loving good TV in general and hoping for the best. But, everything I've said is an educated guess based on recent trends.

Anonymous said...

Interesting about Walking Dead and yes premiere should be huge for GoT. Particularly if they keep leaking stuff like Sean Bean coming back--lol.

And S5 has the advantage of having books 4 and 5 right in front of them--to pick and chose what and when to portray things in a more relatable fashion. D&D did say they were going to start trimming this season.

Nothing wrong with being optimistic.

Richard

Anonymous said...

What do you think of this?

This shows that books have a bigger audience than TV show. And I imagine books have even more since they are shared to second/third readers.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Game+Thrones+numbers/9705455/story.html


Richard

Mike V. said...

FALSE! lol You forgot to do one minor calculation and divide 24 Million by the 5 books. So there is roughly an average of 5 million readers per book. lol

But yes, there is a large population of readers I would imagine. Probably larger than people who have read Leftovers or True Blood or other TV book adaptations. lol

Anonymous said...

You can't assume that there's a 5 to 1 relationship. Granted it is a fair and good point that multiple copies were sold to the same person. But, EVERYONE I know only has one or two books. So, if that is the case say, 2 per person, then it would be 12 million. Which is likely high with your point and still lower than 14 mill, but not drastically AND these are just estimates on both sides. PLUS you and the 12 million above are NOT factoring in the second and third readers(in publishing known as the "pass-along rate"). When you do that it is very possible that the book readers outnumber the TV viewers. Although not likely as much as double--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

I was never assuming it was a 5 to 1, but it's the easiest calculation to do to get a rough estimate. If you have 5 books and 24 million were purhcased, then you have an average of 5 million per book.

It's probably more likely that most people own Game of Thrones and it trickles down from there.

But yes, people borrow books and all of that fun stuff...people find illegal digital copies (I actually bought them but still found them online so I could read on the computer when I had some downtime at work lol - you know "lunch breaks"!)

Anyway, Like even you said...the number is probably still less than the number watching the show...plus factor in it's the most pirated show out there....I don't know the numbers on that but there are much more people watching than the HBO ratings tell.

Anonymous said...

So how do I get the online books--lol?
Richard

Mike V. said...

lol..nice. You haven't actually read them right? You just read like the wiki stuff? I always forget.

Well since I bought the books I was able to just google text from a random page in the book and then it would pull up some direct links to online versions of the books. I just tried to access my bookmarked links and they're all dead links....so I'm sure they keep popping up new ones if you google them. lol

Unfortunately I don't have an e-book version of Game of Thrones (book 1) on my phone or I'd try to find one for you. lol

Mike V. said...

Okay Richard, posted them here too. lol

Comic Con Links (also in Summer Part 1 Post)

Game of thrones - cast announcement and bloopers. Links within this link. I'm on my phone so I'll try to do this more clearly later.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/25/game-of-thrones-blooper/
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/25/game-of-thrones-season-5-cast/

Cast. Shocked at Jonathan pryce for high sparrow. Love it. Lol

Game of thrones - nice tidbits from the panel here.

http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/production-diary/2014/7/25/b81co28saj206o02ahrf6gbozoi76k

Got - nice publicity stunt George lol http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/26/why-george-r-r-martin-wont-write-a-thrones-episode-this-season/?hootPostID=4923ac24b9a1b72905f8bc710910cd2a

Anonymous said...

LOL, seriously he's not writing an ep so he can get the book done. Ambivalence abounds. I so wanted that to be MUCH closer than he's making it sound. How about not writing those "side books" to save time and the associated book tours with them. It's like I think he's on a ride he wants to keep extending. KNowing that when it's over, it's over as anything this big for him. I'm not a psychologist and I hate those who pretend to be and assign motivations to someone so I should probably just shut up. But, I want both, an ep and a book--lol.

I'm looking forward to seeing Pryce, but in that role?
Why mostly European actors or so it seems? James Woods for example would be great in certain roles--lol. He was great in Donovan and so much more.

I did like this from Martin:
9. "The show is the show and the books are the books," so spake Martin, addressing a recurring line of questioning including whether book fans should stop watching the show until the books catch up. "I encourage people to watch the show and also, for people to read the books. Reading books is good." The author used his Scarlett O'Hara analogy from 'Gone With the Wind' to hammer the point home: "How many children does Scarlett O'Hara have?" Pointing out that she has three in the novel, and only one in the movie, Martin asked rhetorically, "What's the true story? The answer is she has none. She never existed and is not a real person. That is the situation -- the show is the show and the book is book."

My wife is a big Scarlett fan. I think this is more of him saying stuff to alleviate the frustration of readers. I'm doing it again(assigning motivations)-bad, bad--shouldn't do that--lol.

Start the Vikings theme song__"..More, give me more, give me more...."

Richard

Mike V. said...

Just listened to my favorite podcast and he said he went to some special room at Comic-Con that had food for the critics/moderators/special guests and when he was in there he saw GRRM sitting down enjoying some mashed potatoes and his immediate thought was, "WHAT? you're eating? Why aren't you writing??" lol Good times. Of course, he was joking because he gets hounded on that all the time when the guy is just enjoying life. Procrastinating a bit? Sure. Yeah, there's these other side books that he shouldn't be too invested in...and they're not all just HIM working on it. But, if he just put that all aside for a year or 2, he could probably make some progress on the books.

So, the whole not writing an episode for season 5 is certainly for appearance purposes. It shows he's dedicating more time to the book....but it's a good PR move. But yeah....it certainly makes it look like he's nowhere near being finished. That said...he probably would have to be writing that script NOW...so instead he's writing the book.

I did like that quote from Martin too that you referenced. But the Vikings song certainly applies here. We're just eager for more story!!

Mike V. said...

****SPOILERISH SPECULATION*****

R+L=J "news" Really just GRRM being forced into dodging. lol

http://www.tvguide.com/News/Game-Thrones-Jon-Snow-Father-1085113.aspx

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the link. Yea, it seems this rumor will come out next season and things are being "leaked" to keep up the momentum.

Richard

Mike V. said...

I guess it's possible it might be incorporated into the show this season. If they're ever planning on addressing it, they certainly should start planting more clues.

But, I don't know if these leaks are intentional. The other link I sent was a fan video attempting to prove it that went a little viral. This might have been a result from that video where the interviewer asked a question they've usually been able to avoid. Of course, Sean Bean was very open with his thoughts...but he's not on the GoT payroll right now.

To think that it's one big intentional leak is pretty impressive for any marketing team. I think the best marketing the show has for it is the series' rabin fanbase (book and show) who are willing to take these initiatives on by themselves. lol

Anonymous said...

The White House leaks stuff ALL the time and seemingly always has for decades. I don't know that it's one leak as much as a series of leaks. Who knows for sure, until they admit it about 10 years down the road at some anniversary--lol. And I'm not sure all involved at the top would need to be in agreement about leaking stuff. Especially if it's done anonymously. And what PR team doesn't encourage questions that bring excitement? Of course reporters on their own like to get scoops too.

I don't know, but there sure seems to be a lot of different stories by different organizations about the same plotline. Reporters like asking questions like this of course, but the answers coming seem to not be the same as they were in the past?

Richard

Mike V. said...

I dunno....once I saw that video getting hits and going viral, I figured it was going to be tough to keep things under wraps. It's the age of social media. The thing is, it's not even a spoiler until it has been revealed in the book or the show. So, it's crazy that it took this long for the rumor to hit the mainstream.

My guess is...Book fans had enough fun touting Ned's death, the Red Wedding, Purple Wedding, Oberyn, Tyrion's double murder/escape among other things that they were able to keep the R+L=J theories as secondary. But now knowing there aren't many twists and turns in the book worth mentioning, this theory is the one thing that people can latch onto.

Maybe the TV team would be behind the leaks, but I would think if they were going to reveal that on the show they'd want it to be a SURPRISE. Not something they hinted at.

Of course, George already knows it won't be a surprise in the books because so many people pieced it together and shared with the people that didn't crack it. And granted, we have to worry that this means he'll change it so people get another twist on expectations. lol

Mike V. said...

But...considering he even asked D&D who Jon snow's mother is and they answered correctly pretty much tells me the theory is right. lol

Anonymous said...

Yea, I think you're onto something with the R+L=J theory on the back burner with all the other BIG twists the first several seasons. What if, Sean has already shot the backflashes??? Is that possible? Maybe he's filming in seclusion somewhere? REgardless the reveal with him doing backflashes would be a BIG surprise.

Also, would be interesting to have his wife make a comeback tour as well--lol.

Richard

Mike V. said...

I'm sure if they are making return visits the production team would do their best to keep that under wraps. And you'd think Sean Bean would be smart enough to play dumb if he got questioned about it. (same with Michelle when being interviewed during 24)

That said...they did seem completely in the dark if there were any plans. Alas, they ARE actors. lol

And if the plan truly is to use Bran as a flashback device, then there's a good chance they've talked to sean bean. Unless they'd get a completely different actor to play a younger Ned Stark. lol

Mike V. said...

BTW there was some "spoiler speculation" above. I'm just under the assumption that we're the only 2 checking this thread out daily. lol

Anonymous said...

LOL, I'm hoping for more eyeballs.

I don't know, is it a spoiler since it really is speculation and nothing is confirmed?

Wow, hadn't thought about a younger actor. That would be a twist.

If it were backflashes it would have to be before he was killed off the show. Also, there's a relative of one of Bran's "associates" that knows the story. So, backflashes aren't necessary but would be neat.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Speculating on BRAN's role in season 5 is spoilerish because it alludes to what he'd be able to do. lol

I'd have to keep posting new GoT content on the site to attract more eyeballs! :) This post is stale! Unless there are people looking for recaps for the s4 finale. lol

Yep, I would assume if there would be a flashback it would be to the tower of joy. But yes, Howland Reed was with Ned.

Mike V. said...

Great reddit ama (ask me anything) with Sean bean. He made it clear he read the books and even mentions again js isn't his. But just book theory. The interaction with the reddit commenters is hysterical.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2cp9ol/hello_its_sean_bean_a_legend_on_legends_ama/

Mike V. said...

Viewership Updates

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/08/06/game-of-thrones-viewership-20-million/

Anonymous said...

Saw that in another place, yea that's a pretty big deal.

Spoilerish****************************************
Saw some pics of Brienne and Pod with soldiers from the Vale. I was hoping for some Brothers.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Interesting...yeah there could be a connection.

This sucks:
http://news-briefs.ew.com/2014/08/11/game-of-thrones-actor-j-j-murphy-dies-at-86/

But I don't recognize the character name. I wonder if he was made up for the show.

Mike V. said...

Sean bean clarifies his comments about paternity lol

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/11/life-after-deaths-sean-bean-on-game-of-thrones-paternity-and-legends.html

Anonymous said...

OK, so that makes two of us not recognizing characters name.

Anonymous said...

You thought that was the likely case with Bean. They really do need to disclose the theory next season.

And where's book 6--lol.

Mike V. said...

GRRM talking about people guessing the ending and some people have already guessed it. Funny he has thought to change it to surprise them but agreed it made no sense to do that. lol

Also funny how the comments just assume he means R+L=J but that's not an ending that's one plot! lol

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/08/12/george-r-r-martin-fans-guessed-ending/

Anonymous said...

Yes, we need to look for subtle clues--lol. One reason I'm not so sure about Dany being the end result queen, it's too obvious.

It's good that he's not changing the key/major ending parts.

Does it make you want to reread and look for clues?

Richard

Mike V. said...

I'd love to reread but they're so long! Lol. Maybe one day but maybe just google theories. :)

Anonymous said...

A great interview of GRRM. Lots of good details here, especially the reference to 1999. I did not realize this goes back almost 20 years!!!

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/08/13/george-r-r-martin-titanic-expansion-game-thrones-torrenting-state/

He says he's a feminist and that people on the basis of the first 2 books(I base this on 1999 date) could figure out the ending. So, Danny may just be queen after all--lol.

And, he basically agrees with me about the Jaimee/Cersei scene that wasn't done per the book. As I said back when it happened, that horrible scene will haunt them a LONG time.

BTW, selfishly I say, "write more/interview less"!

Richard



Mike V. said...

Thanks for the link Richard! Yeah, I did know it started way back in the 90s. Of course the first 3 books came out every 2 years then he hit the knot and probably a crapload of money to start traveling the world. lol

As for writing, he's made it clear he only writes at home on his ancient computer without internet access. It's his process. So he was in Edinburgh for some event, and he did a 10 minute interview, I think that's okay! lol He did other press there too. It's shocking that he considers 4-5 manuscript pages as a good day. I guess that makes sense given the years it takes him to write but wow that seems so small!

I think what he's referring to as the clues is the whole House of the Undying prophecy in Clash of Kings. There was some pretty big symbols in there that people were able to crack and figure out what they all were, or at least hypothesize what some were. Some have already been answered. I think the Red Wedding was referenced there as an example.

As for the rape scene, he really didn't unveil any new information about his opinions than he did for his original EW interview. He mentioned how the setting for that scene was different than the book which changed the circumstances. Basically, Jaime was already in King's Landing in the show, but in the book this was the first time they saw each other. He wants people debating the right controversy of the scene rather than what was debated. But, that is a result of the writing or the direction.

Sure, the question came up again but for the most part the hub bub about that scene has died down. Its 15 minutes are over. It might get drug up again if they do anything similar in future seasons, but I don't think it's going to be haunting them TOO much. Maybe by the select few that won't let it go!!! :)

Anonymous said...

Just remember, the reporter asked about the rape scene, not yours truly--lol.

And yes, it is hard for me to let it go, esp since I early on theorized that to some extent it will always be a point of issue to varying degree. So, when the scene's issues are brought up again by various outlets, I will possibly relate that info here--lol.

When I write, I get into a groove and sometimes can't stop until a particular situation is resolved for example. I can't imagine only doing 4 to 5 a day--I would loose rhythm and meaning.

Richard

Mike V. said...

Yes another person that can't let it go! Lol :) jk

I'd imagine manuscript pages are larger than book pages but still I agree. Lol

Anonymous said...


I post this to kind of prove a point.

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/08/21/george-rr-martin-kill-main-characters/

There is no mention of Dany by the posters after the article. Almost everyone else is mentioned, but not her. Her death would be the biggest shock. If he killed her off it would make the show a classic in it's surprises. I really need that part of the story you mentioned above in detail. Do you know which chapter it was in?

Richard

Mike V. said...

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Clash_of_Kings-Chapter_48

That should have the info you want!

It's a good theory on yours of Dany. Certainly could happen. We'll see!

Anonymous said...

Don't hate me for posting so much, but to me it's so cool

+++++++++++++++++y Book Stuff already gone over in the show++++++++++++++++Speculation+++++

Daenerys stands before the House of the Undying. Drogon hisses at the gray and ancient ruin and most of her companions, Ser Jorah, Jhogo, Aggo, and Xaro, tell her she should turn back, but she is resolute to enter the abode of the Warlocks. Pyat Pree steps out to her, saying that Daenerys must enter alone, or not at all. He leads her to the entrance, warning her to always take the door to her right, and only take stairs leading up. On her way she will see visions of the past, future and days that never were, and those that will speak to her from other rooms, but she must not enter any room and keep her path until she reaches the Undying's audience chamber.

At the entrance, Daenerys drinks a glass of shade of the evening a dwarf gives her, to prepare her for the truths within, and enters. In the House of the Undying, she notices right away that she is in the presence of sorcery. Fortunately, she brought Drogon with her into the Warlocks' home. Daenerys sees a great many visions during her journey through the halls:

1. A beautiful naked woman sprawling on a floor with four little men with rat-like faces raping her.
2. A feast of corpses, a room full of savagely slaughtered bodies, and many of the corpses have cups or spoons in their hands; above them sits a dead man on a throne with the head of a wolf, wearing an iron crown and holding a leg of lamb like a king would hold a scepter
3. old, dead, loyal Ser Willem Darry beckons her into the house with the red door, in Braavos[2]
4. An old man with long silver hair sits on a barbed throne in a great hall with dragon skulls, and says "Let him be the king of ashes"
5. a man who looks like Viserys, but taller and with darker eyes, who says to a woman nursing a baby, "Aegon… What better name for a King… He is the Prince that was Promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"; and when the man’s eyes meet Dany’s, he says either to her or the woman with the baby, "There must be one more… The dragon has three heads", and he picks up a silver harp and begins to play;
6. a vision of Pyat Pree telling her the visit is over, and to follow him into a garden;
7. a great hall with several robed people claiming to be the Undying Qarth, who tell her, "We sent the comet to show you the way (to Qarth)… shall we teach you the secret speech of dragonkind?", but it turns out to be sorcery.

Finally, Daenerys comes upon a room with several figures that are no more than shadows, unbreathing, and over them floats a human heart, blue and corrupted (these are apparently the real Undying). The figures speak inside Dany’s head:
“ we know… the shape of shadows… morrows not yet made… drink from the cup of ice… drink from the cup of fire… Mother of Dragons… Child of Three… three heads has the dragon… three fires must you light: one for life and one for death and one to love… three mounts must you ride: one to bed and one to dread and one to love… three treasons will you know: once for blood and once for gold and once for love… daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire… ”

1about the naked woman--maybe Dany or maybe Westeros??? Or Ned's Sister??

2 interesting about the wolf's head reference must be Red Wedding?

Richard

Anonymous said...

Second Part of Long Post
Again, don't hate me.

+++++++++++++++++y Book Stuff already gone over in the show++++++++++++++++Speculation+++++

She now sees visions in her head, floating faster and faster:

1 Viserys dying;
2. a tall lord with copper skin and silver hair bearing the banner of a fiery stallion;[4]
3. a dying prince with rubies flying from his armor whispering the name of a woman with his last breath;[5]
4. a blue-eyed king with a red sword in his hand who casts no shadow;[6]
5. a cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd;
6. a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire;
7. her Silver horse given to her by Drogo at her wedding;
8. a corpse at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, smiling sadly;[7]
9. a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice;
10. shadows dancing in a tent;
11. a little girl running toward a house with a red door;[8]
12. Mirri Maz Duur shrieking in the flames as a dragon bursts from her;
13. a corpse being dragged behind a silver horse;
14. a white lion running through grass taller than a man;
15. a line of naked crones emerging from a lake, kneeling before Daenerys beneath the Mother of Mountains;
16. ten thousand slaves crying "Mother" as Daenerys rides by on her silver.[9]

At this point, the visions turn to a nightmare as the Undying try to consume Dany, and she is helpless to stop them until Drogon starts to tear the corrupted heart to pieces. Fleeing from the burning House of the Undying, Pyat Pree attacks her with a dagger, but Drogon interrupts him long enough for Daenerys to hear Jhogo’s whip crack, and then she is in the arms of Ser Jorah.


Note items 7 and 13 immediately above, the horse and the corpse being drug.

I love this stuff, so much here. And the line toward the beginning about "days that never were" just makes it even harder to figure it out--lol.

Richard

Anonymous said...

***********Spoilers from link below************on S5 GoT

At least this shows we won't loose this part of the book stuff.

Richard

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/08/27/season-5-nudity-shooting-snag-resolved/

Kind of funny that she's never been nude before.

Mike V. said...

Richard, I don't mind you posting this stuff! I was hoping you would so I wouldn't have to! lol But, I was on vacation which was my reason for delay.

A lot of these visions have been confirmed from what happens later in the books. 2 is DEFINITELY the Red Wedding. I think on some website they have them listed. Probably one of the pedias or tower of the hand. I'll check it out. Definitely was a nice refresher to read this though! And I see your note on 7 and 13. lol We'll see!

As for the link, thanks. I'll be vague here since I didn't post a spoiler, but I totally forgot about that scene until I read that article. So funny how clear Books 1-3 were for me and what I expected to see in the show. Books 4 and 5??? Kind of a huge blur for me. lol Which is weird since I read them most recently.

Mike V. said...

Okay, well TOTH (tower of the hand) does have footnotes to their episode recap with spoiler warnings. You can also set your spoiler levels on the site to say you've read all the books and watched all seasons.

http://towerofthehand.com/books/102/049/


****SPOILERS/SPECULATION*****


Anyway, reading this part: He turns to a woman nursing a babe and names the child Aegon. The woman asks if he will write a song, and the man replies, "He has a song. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He turns to Daenerys then, and almost seems to see her before adding, "There must be one more. The dragon has three heads."4

Kind of sounds like AT is TPTWP....and that could be 2 of the dragon riders. Perhaps TL is the 3rd that Rhaegar speaks of?

Seems too easy for AT to immediately be considered TPTWP though.

Mike V. said...

The problem with that site is it was never updated to really factor in ADWD....so it seems a little outdated in the footnotes for TPTWP.

Anonymous said...

I"m still checking into things as I have time. I rewatched the tower ep(Valor Morghulos) a couple of days ago and it is very different from the book in that it doesn't have near as much.

The stuff with Drogo was interesting but I don't think foreshadowing. The Iron Thone room covered in snow and the roof off was foreshadowing. But these are the only two things I can recall. Anything I missed in these tower scenes? I did notice that she reached out to touch the throne but quickly drew her hand back kind of indicating it wasn't for her maybe. I think that was key in foreshadowing. Maybe it was a not yet thing?

Richard

Mike V. said...

Tower Scene - There was no way they could've implemented the book scene in the show. It would've spoiled too much, and they would've had to cast characters that weren't even cast yet and still not cast yet. (possibly) That stuff works in the book because you can visualize the text without it being shown to you. I'm sure there would've been ways to do it on TV but it wouldn't have been as imaginative I wouldn't think.

But they captured the general idea of it...of Dany seeing visions of her past, possible future and stuff that really isn't real. lol But, I didn't really look into any symbolism in her reaching for the throne and pulling back. There could be something there but I dunno. You're very obsessed with this idea that Dany is going to perish! lol It is certainly a strong possibility. We'll see!

Mike V. said...

GoT - didn't see this coming. http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/09/03/bran-stark-game-of-thrones-season-5/

Anonymous said...

Wow, that really tells us a lot about what's going to happen and NOT happen. All this speculation about Bean is for naught at least with Bran involved. It makes me more convinced the story is going a different direction next year and so it may not be as enjoyable since it may not involve as much of the over all story arch. It could mean yet another year before the old story of parentage is revealed too. And after all that teasing last season it would be a shame, at least to me.

LOL, we'll have to agree and disagree on the Dany stuff. Certainly having more of it in the show allows more of the story to be teased, but it's not spoilerly in itself since it may not happen. Also, they could have done what Falling Skies did with reflected/blurred images or many other things. It would also have generated a lot more discussion.

I don't know about the drawing away from the throne for sure as an intentional foreshadowing or similar. But, the scene definitely made it a big deal with the shots of her approaching, her reaching for the throne, a shot back at her concerned face and a quick withdraw of her hand only inches away. I hadn't paid much attention to that sequence before.


Richard

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