Monday, June 2, 2014

Game of Thrones: Season 4 Episode 8 - The Mountain and The Viper

Hello fellow Westerosians and welcome back to the Game of Thrones!  THAT. WAS. AWESOME!  The whole episode was fantastic, but the Trial By Combat exceeded my expectations!  It certainly is difficult to withhold information like that for Non-Book Readers (I'm told the term across the interwebs is "The Unsullied"), but totally worth it when you get to experience it for the first time.   And of course book readers get to see these things they imagined in their heads come to life.  Game of Thrones has a good batting average of not disappointing in my opinion.   Anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves.  Let's dive into the quick recap!  

SPOILER ADVISORY: As always, I'm always very protective for the "Unsullied" non-book readers and only speak of book plots when the events occur in the TV Show.  I like to speak to differences between the show and book but I will never intentionally spoil upcoming plots.  If I do, the spoiler warnings will be clearly labeled.

Discussion Points
  • So, the Grey Worm/Missendei stuff.  Very touching, but totally off-book.  In the book we are told the Unsullied have no inclinations towards relationships and pretty much no emotions and of course nothing to motivate these desires below the belt.  But, I like that they've given Grey Worm a bit of a personality on the show.  Maybe he's curious to what he saw during bath time, but I wonder where they're going with this.  It would seem that Grey Worm and Missendei are interested in each other.  Of course, Dany had to "go there" and ask the question of "what exactly did they cut off of them?"  Like I said, in the book they didn't leave much to the imagination.  But, maybe they're going to change that here.   Besides the fact that anyone would sound completely ridiculous trying to complain about this change (outloud in a public forum.  Just picture it.), I'm not going to worry about it! 
  • So, ever since Ser Barristan came into the picture as Ser Barristan and not undercover as Ser Arstan Whitebeard, I've been wondering how they would resolve a certain little plot that they finally got around to in this episode.  I'm actually ashamed of my intellect for not piecing together what Tywin Lannister has been up to all season with his concern over Dany and the Dragons.  Ser Jorah Mormount's royal pardon from King Robert Baratheon just happened to show up in Mereen after all of this time after the king's death.  It was a political move by Tywin to create tension in Dany's crew.  Now, the show did a good job reminding us all but if you don't remember Jorah was originally spying on Dany for the King hoping for a Royal Pardon for his slave selling.  But, over that first season/book, Jorah came to love Dany and would do anything for her.  He even stopped her from being poisoned.  In the book Barristan always had this information in his back pocket.  He didn't reveal who he truly was until the end of book 3 and then exposed Jorah for who HE truly was.  In the show they made a point to have Barristan tell Jorah that he didn't sit in the Small Council meetings in King's Landing (last season).  Unless you were following Jorah's story closely you may not have noticed it was a relief for Jorah to hear that.   Anyway, the plots finally reconciled and they did it pretty seamlessly.   And the throne room scene of kicking Jorah to the curb was very powerful.  Emilia Clarke (Dany) delivered big time with the emotion required in that scene.  Poor Jorah packed up his gear and heads off to the unknown, and not too happy about it.  
Molestown/The Wall
  • We finally get to catch up on the story that many couldn't care less about.  i.e. What happened to Gilly?  Well, apparently, she's being verbally abused in Molestown but doesn't have the appearance of any physical abuse.  She's kept out of sight raising her baby that apparently cries (shocker!).  Of course, at the sound of an owl, she knew to get out of sight as the Wildling's were approaching!  They took out most of the people of Molestown.  Ygritte was shown to be on a murderous rampage, but spared Gilly and little Sam when she saw them.  
  • Sam, upon hearing the news, was horrified.  But, his friends eventually tried to comfort him telling him that Gilly has survived much worse than that (Craster, a White Walker, etc...  Nice to see that his friends believe his story of the White Walker.  Maybe they'll start truly calling him Sam the Slayer and not as a joke!).  
  • Jon knew that the war was coming and coming soon.  But, he also knew that they should not go towards Molestown to take out the distraction.  There are 100,000 Wildlings coming from the north under Mance Rayder's command.  And the 122 Night's Watch folk have to man the Wall.  Should make for quite a battle, right?  Maybe even a battle that should have its own episode like Blackwater did in season 2, right?  Maybe they should even get the director that did the Blackwater episode to come back because he did such a fine job, right?  Well tune in next week and we'll see if something like that may happen! 
Moat Cailin/The North
  • Ramsay has sure played his little games well on poor Theon/Reek.  And Alfie Allen (Theon/Reek) is doing a tremendous job playing the role of this tormented/brainwashed character.  In the scene where he has to portray Theon again to the Ironborn he does a good job being a noble man again, but it was easy to see the internal conflict portrayed as well.  This chapter was in A Dance With Dragons (book 5) as a Reek POV chapter, I think.  So, we got to read the internal struggles Reek had with pretending to be this Theon person.  He did some good convincing to most of the Ironborn, just not the sick one that was leading them at the time.  But the others took him out in hopes to be able to leave Moat Cailin and return to their homes.  Of course, these were all empty promises from Ramsay Snow as we unfortunately got to see the result of their surrender.  FLAYING.  ouch! 
  • Roose Bolton was happy with the results and awarded Ramsay with a new title.  His TRUE son and heir to the North: Ramsay Bolton.  I'm not sure how clear this was but when Ramsay tells Reek that he needs a nice bath and they start heading towards a castle in the distance...that was indicating that they are returning to Winterfell!  And of course, this also means we are well into book 5 with Reek/Ramsay's story.  I'm fairly certain they're going to be able to wrap up both books 4 and 5 next season which of course is concerning for seasons 6 and 7!  But, we'll worry about that when we get there. 
The Vale/Eyrie
  • Littlefinger inevitably had to be questioned by officials in the Vale about Lysa Tully/Arryn/Baelish's apparent suicide.  This whole scene was changed from the book.  Not sure if you remember some singer dude who Joffrey had his tongue taken out at the end of season 1 for singing a song about Robert Baratheon's death?  That was Marillion who was actually in a few other scenes in season 1.  Pretty sure he accompanied Catelyn and Tyrion to the Vale too.   Anyway, in the book he was at the Vale for those horrific events, tongue and all.  He was persuaded by Littlefinger to tell some white lies about what happened to Lysa and that was that.   I thought this TV version was very powerful, maybe even better.  This had to be the meatiest scene Sophie Turner (Sansa) has ever gotten and she delivered big time!  She came out and told the people of the Vale who she really was (and they promised to keep her secret as they respect Ned Stark still).  But, then she weaved a tale very convincing that was mostly true except for some important little changes.  She talked about her torture in King's Landing and being married off to The Imp (which she made sound worse than it actually was for effect).  She talked about Littlefinger rescuing her and bringing her to family.  And then she spoke about Littlefinger kissing her "on the cheek" (LIAR!!) which set Lysa off.  She said that Petyr tried to calm her down, but she threw herself out the Moon Door.  And they bought it hook line and sinker! 
  • Petyr didn't waste any time trying to turn the people of the Vale against the Lannisters and he wanted to send Robin, Lord of the Vale, off on a tour of the castles of the Vale to rally the troops.  They explained that Robin is sickly, but that didn't affect Littlefinger's plans.  
  • Petyr was impressed with Sansa's lying and asked why she did it.  Sansa said she knew they would've killed him, but didn't know what they would've done to Allaine if she didn't come clean.  And she says she knows what Littlefinger wants which gives her an advantage over not knowing the other outcome.  I kept thinking she was going to say, "EVERYTHING" but she didn't.  Certainly Littlefinger did say that.  Of course, she may now think that Littlefinger wants HER after that kiss.
  • Anyway, the final scene at the Vale we saw Littlefinger giving Robin a speech of making the best of his life while he still had it, and then we see Sansa come out all dressed up like a woman in charge and happy.  She seems seemingly ready to play a role that Littlefinger requires here.  We'll see what happens!  
  • Meanwhile, Arya and the Hound approach the Vale.  Arya complained about not being there to watch Joffrey die.  The Hound grunted and complained about how annoying she is, meanwhile kind of respecting her.  In case you were wondering if he magically healed from that bite, he did not.  He grabbed at it and Arya complained that he should've let her burn it.  But, he brushed it off as nothing.  We'll see Clegane, we'll see!  
  • The approach the gates and The Hound declares he has Arya Stark and wishes to see her Aunt Lysa (For reward of course).  And they expressed condolences and told them that Lysa is dead.  With this, Arya fittingly bursted out into a fit of laughter.  Why wouldn't she be dead?  She keeps hitting roadblock after roadblock and dead family member after dead family member!  So, what does this mean for the 2 of them?  Arya is so close to Sansa.  Will they reunite?  I feel like I shouldn't say anything because anything I say may tip off what I know inevitably happens in the book.
King's Landing
  • The Trial by Combat is moments away and Tyrion sits in his cell with Jaime discussing the good old days.  Well, first they spoke to the fact that Oberyn's chances were not very good against Gregor "The Mountain" Clegane.  Tyrion joked to all of the different terms for homicide depending on the relationship between the 2 people.  Which brought them to a discussion about one of their mentally challenged cousins.  Tyrion went on at length talking about how interested he was in the fact that this cousin just liked to kill beetles over and over again.  Long story short, he never was able to figure it out.   The only tie I could make to this story being told was that he was comparing it to The Mountain and that he's a thoughtless killing machine.  But, I don't know.  Regardless, it was extremely well acted by Dinklage, as always.  
  • We then came to the grand Trial by Combat where The Red Viper, Oberyn Martell was extremely excited to finally face off against the Mountain.  Do you remember what The Mountain allegedly did to Oberyn's sister Elia Martell?  You don't?  Duh, he raped her.  murdered her.  AND KILLED HER CHILDREN!  This scene was inevitably going to draw comparisons to Indigo Montoya's speech to the 6 fingered man in The Princess Bride.  And, I was inevitably going to have to bring it up as well!  But, the fight?  Wow was it awesome.  The Viper kept trying to draw the confession out of him as he evaded those slow powerful sword attacks from the Mountain.  Of course, getting his confession was his one fatal flaw.   He had taken The Mountain down with his spear and impaled him in several places.  But he removed the spear because he wanted the confession.  The Mountain took what strength he had left and took Oberyn down to the ground with him.  And then he certainly did confess to raping, murdering Elia Martel and killing her children.   Of course, the rumors where he bashed the kids skulls to the wall.  And he told Oberyn that he killed them "like this" and crushed his skull to pieces with his bare hands.  I have to tell you kids, I'm pretty much able to watch some pretty gruesome stuff on TV these days.  With all of the gore on TV/Movies, my tolerance level is pretty high.  I had to turn away at this scene.  It was rough...but awesomely executed!  And the Red Viper was "executed" in awesome fashion as well.   The actor did an amazing job getting people to love that character in just a few appearances this season.  It was the same impact the character had in the books.  So, to see that everyone is upset over the outcome of this fight is only supporting the love of that character even more.  That GRRM is one sick dude, but it is all for telling a good story.  This was one plot some were hoping the showrunners would change as they love The Red Viper.  But, this story had to be told.  It is essential to what follows.  But, it's also one of the reasons this was mine and many's favorite book of the series (A Storm of Swords - book 3).  Can you believe that all of the events of last season and many of the key events of this season were all in one book?  Guess what?  There's still more coming!! 
  • Of course, I forgot to bring up the final line of the episode. Tywin sentenced Tyrion to death (by beheading) due to the outcome of the fight.  DUM DUM DUMMMMM!  Will Tyrion get out of this?  It has been proven that no one is safe on this show/book series.  My lips are sealed.  I wish I could unseal them but I just can't.  
  • And the fate of The Mountain isn't really clear at the end of this episode.  But, he certainly has some wounds, just like his brother up at the Vale.  Ahh like brother like brother.  What will happen to the Cleganes?  Maybe we'll get some extra information in episode 10! 
And that's all I have for you today.  Well, here's the EW links in case you want more:
Okay, that's really all for this week now.  Can't wait to discuss in the comments! Hope you enjoyed my ramblings and I'll see you next week! 


Anonymous said...

Thanks for posting.

I think my expectations were too high for this ep. It was a good ep, but didn't blow me away. There was more filler in this ep than I thought necessary for example and I didn't like the fight.

The fight--removing the speak causes you to bleed more and therefore more quickly die. I think I know why he removes the spear, but the effect would have been much more realistic if all knew what was going on with the spear!! I again don't like what Alex did-lol. Also, I thought the fight in the book was more where the Mountain was doing a better job at least not getting beat. He is not as slow as they made him look on TV.

Yea, the Theon/Ramsey/Roose stuff next year will have to get into book 6--lol.

How will 122 defend against 100,000? Maybe they can't and our hero up North will be one like his brother that will be taken? Maybe they get dragons--lol and win? That should be a good fight and hopefully Alex didn't do that ep.

Thought the Jorah stuff was handled well. Not sure about the Grey Worm stuff though. Anyway, it appears again that Dany's inexperience in ruling comes through as it does in the books--lol. Jorah riding off was pretty good knowing what lies in front of him. His pointing out the true nature of the pardon disclosure and no one else recognizing it was pretty good. Imagine how screwed up things would be if he hadn't been advising her.

I really felt sorry for the Hound when Arya started laughing and for her. You would think they would still let them in given her position as a Stark and their respect for Starks. I mean, they need some rest and even strangers take people in for that as we've already seen. Oh well, we know what should happen.


Mike V. said...

I find that the majority of this show's strong points are in conversations between 2 (sometimes more) characters so it's hard for me to characterize any episode as "FILLER" lol.

There were so many powerful scenes in this episode. I also have liked what they've done with the pacing this year. For the most part, they're telling the story in one location before moving to the next location instead of cutting back and forth through the episode. It certainly helps the scenes breathe a little more. I'm guessing Alex Graves directed this one? Sounds like you're never going to forgive him for that "scene" we should not mention anymore. lol

But no...he did not direct episode 9. They brought back the guy that directed Blackwater...he's a movie director Neil Marshall and he directed the hell out of Blackwater. I'm looking forward to it.

As for the fight...yeah maybe your expectations were too high...I thought it was pretty awesome. lol As for pulling out the I dunno. But there's certainly more to come there. Well maybe not certainly. lol

Theon/Ramsay there's still a big book 5 plot coming...of course it cliffhangs into book 6 which doesn't exist yet. lol So maybe that's how next season will end.

I guess Dany's point with Jorah was that if he wasn't spying on her in the first place her life would've never been in jeopardy. But yeah....I think Jorah's intentions now are with the queen so it's unforunate! But, I'm interested to see future events that are caused by this.

Yeah you would think that they'd let Arya in. I honestly don't know what they're going to do there in the show. We just know where it ends. lol We'll see!

MJ said...

Dany - loved her phrasology 'Pillar and Stones' though. And no - I do not want to be called Unsullied - LOL But it's cute.
Ser Jorah - guess I don't remember the pardon they showed in previously on, and had NO idea that he was spying for any
one. For non-bookers that seemed like it came from absolutely no where. Doesn't even make sense to me - just how was
he getting info to Tywin ? I never saw any Ravens with the Dothraki. I would not liken the battle of Blackwater to what
is to come with 100,000 against 122 - seems like it would be a lot less spectacular. But you probably know something I don't.
And no - needing a hot bath did not in any way point to going to Winterfel for me - so thanks. Agree - actress playing Sansa
was fab. The finally gave her some good stuff. But wow - when she was coming down those stairs - it was like she'd turned
into Malificent. Arya laughing when she found out that her aunt had just died was actually a little chilling. I'm thinking these lowly guards don't know she is Sansa to enable them to tell Arya her sister is here - so no - they will not reunite.

As for the Trial by Combat - yes totally awesome. And he had him beat ! But he just had to keep taunting him into confessing !
I knew then that it would not end well - but so gross really! I know no one is safe but I just can't believe they'd kill Tyrion. But
I know its possible.

Question - which guy was the one who was saying to the nights watch that the last one left should burn them all ?

Speaking of crying babies - how's the new addition doing? Has Parker settled into having a little sister around ?

Mike V. said...


RE: Unsullied - NOTED! lol

They never showed the pardon. But, I guess Robert had created one and sealed it. But yeah...I figured it wasn't very clear that Jorah was spying on Dany unless you were REALLY paying attention and you knew those character names in season 1. Ned and Rob talked about him at length but it was early and people may not have picked up on it.

He wasn't giving information to Tywin...he only spied on her during season 1 but then he became committed to Dany when he stopped her from being poisoned. Tywin probably found out about it though as he is resourceful and used it to his advantage. (but the whole Tywin being involved wasn't even in the books) If you rewatched the show you'd pick up on it better. It was definitely there...just not prominent.

There's 100,000 people coming to the wall....that's a sight to see regardless of the 122 manning the wall. But, I may know stuff you don't. Though...there are some things being intentionally left vague as we approach the battle even though they were clearly stated in the show. But considering you don't remember the Jorah thing...this is probably similar. lol I really have already said too much.

The hot bath had no connection to would be just recognizing that that was indeed Winterfell they were approaching. Maybe by watching the intro every episode one could pick up on that...but I figured it wouldn't be clear to everyone.

LOL on Malificent. Good point on the guards not knowing Sansa is there. But still the Vale are friends of the North and the Starks....but we'll see!

There have been a lot of great events in the 3rd book of ASOIAF...and they've been spread out over the course of 2 seasons....I will say, a couple of the best are still to come. And they will probably be in episode 10 this time. But the battle is nothing to brush aside!!!

That guy in the Night's Watch is Dolores Edd (or something like that). He's been around since season 2 and was hanging out with Grenn and Sam while they were picking up poop for fire. lol

Family is doing well!! Parker loves her little sister and she's mostly only fussy when she's hungry. Parker just cried all of the time so this is an improvement! We're having a great time. :) Thanks for asking! lol

Anonymous said...

Some good speculation and some spoilers:

I really think there's a good chance these guys are right on most things. With Dorne and Bravos and more Essos stuff next year will feel a lot different. And the North and Wall will have a different dynamic. Will be interesting to see how they keep up the bigger/better idea season over season.

So, who do you think will be the biggest new character for next season? LS doesn't count--lol.


Mike V. said...

Whew...that's a big article. I'll have to read it more later. But definitely NON-BOOK READERS stay away!! lol

As for biggest new character next year:


My money is on Arianna Martell. People love them some Sand Snakes and it seems like they're going to be prominently figured into next season. I'm thinking that the ironborn storyline might be what's cut down a bit. But Victarion Greyjoy seems like he might be an important character in the long run.

I'm assuming they still have to bring the whole AT storyline into things...maybe not. But with them focusing on The Viper/Mountain conflict it makes it relevant.

I do wonder if they'll introduce Penny. Maybe they'll just have Tyrion run into Jorah more quickly on his journeys. But I would like to see Arya run into Jorah in Braavos....or was it Sam that runs into him? Or does he run into Arya? Ugh...I forget. lol

I wonder if Kevan Lannister will figure more prominently into next season....he has been a minor role in previous seasons but he's a bigger role in future books.

MJ said...

Well - feel comforted that you did NOT reveal too much apparently. LOL

Ah - I thought he was that guy sent by Bolton but my husband said he was dead already.

From what I've heard if you have a crier first your second is usually better and vice versa. It's like mother nature never gives 2 criers. LOL

Mike V. said...

Yup "LOCKE" the made for TV character was killed by Jon Snow and one of Craster's wives in the North. lol

That's what I've heard as well about babies. I'm glad mother nature was looking out for us this time!! Of course, also, I guess the 2nd time around you're a little more prepared for what you're in for. lol

MJ said...

True - but I've known peeps that had that perfect baby that never cried and slept so well the first time around then get the collicky one next LOL

Crap - there's only 2 more episodes ? I hadn't been counting. That blows

Mike V. said...

MJ - Trust me, after these 2 episodes you're gonna need a breather. :) I don't want to overhype...but I think I'm safe with this one. lol

So glad we got the non-stop crier first!! lol We wouldn't trade him in for the world. He has more personality than any 2 year old I've ever seen! lol Not biased at all being his father. :)

Mike V. said...

GRRM talks about finishing the books and his thoughts for finishing the show. It clearly shows how uninvolved he really is in the making of the show outside of being a consultant and writing a script a season.

I still think the 10 episode seasons are for the sake of quality. And I'm sure budget figures into it.

Mutterings of an 8th book. Doesn't surprise me.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for posting.

LOL, LOL,LOL,LOL you defend the 10. I can certainly understand why and with that logic, which is valid, 8 could be done even better. Glad he agrees with me though, 10 is just not enough. Ironically for the same budget/production quality trade offs a feature film is yet even better, ie 1 ep. So, maybe HBO will make a movie they don't want to make.

Honestly, the long gaps are very bad for me. If I had started watching this when it started I would probably even be more frustrated. Glad I started when I did.

The books going to 8 and originally planned as 3, but probably staying at 7 of course turns me off big time. For the same reasons I like those series that are timeline defined. The more books will also result in bigger differences between the TV and Book versions, which I won't like at all.

I wouldn't assume he's not involved. Involvement can be on a changing continuum throughout the season and between seasons. He certainly isn't in the editing room approving the final version. And if there's any serious conflict, he's got a big hammer with the ability to change how it ends. Even if the producers think they know how it ends and GRRM agreed, he seems like the kind of guy that could change his mind.


Mike V. said...

Most people agree with you and grrm that they want more than 10. Even I'd love more game of thrones. I just argue that there might be a sacrifice in quality to do so. Sure they could fit more from the books into the show but with cheaper looking sets, maybe less effective dialogue, cheaper effects. They have a whole year to produce those episodes and a budget. They are shooting in several different countries which is more than any other show takes on. Battling elements of Iceland and what not. I'm sure D and D could make an awesome 13 episode season but I don't know if I want to see the sacrifices made along the way.

I've known that the book series started as a trilogy and I knew he always reserved the right to not finish in 7. So that's why it doesn't surprise me. But yeah he just writes what he feels like and then they figure out how to cut it into books later. Not necessarily a promising method when developing a tv show in the middle of it.

I just think in the end we are going to have to inevitably end up with 2 different products. There was great potential for them both to be companion pieces to each other but the showrunners are just going to have to end the series in a way that respects the themes that grrm is planning to end his book series with.

We'll see what they come up with.

Mike V. said...

Forgot to comment on involvement. Maybe I just mean it seems like he's on a totally different page than the official stance by the showrunners and HBO. They seem pretty firm on doing 7 seasons (maybe 8) and that's it regardless of GRRM's status with the books. And he is publicly saying he wants to do the film approach which may have been suggested in a meeting but maybe wasn't supposed to be made public.

Film approach would be interesting, but it certainly would have to eliminate even more of the nuances from the book to cover the plot over 2 or 3+ hours. But yes...a bigger budget would be nice, unless these would be straight to HBO movies so that they didn't force the TV audience to go to the theater to see the conclusion.

I'm sure these discussions are being had on a periodic basis while checking in with GRRM's writing status. But it seems pretty clear that he will not be done his book series in 3 years which is probably the latest it could be done to finish up in 8 seasons.

Anonymous said...

Agree--that's what you get with this kind of a deal and GRRM determined to not be rushed and not give on his creativity nor ability change/tweak.

Just think what would happen if he killed off Tyrion in book 6? Or Dany?

It is absolutely possible and I don't think GRRM would let it pressure him, that they could be into season 6 and him not having finished book 6. There will be a danger of the TV show and/or books loosing fringe fans at that point.

BTW, since this show has been so much better received than anticipated, the budget can be increased. So, not doing more eps due to budget is kind of a smoke screen. It's the biggest thing out there right now and so HBO has supported it with I understand even bigger budgets. So, D&D have decided to spend that money on whatever they choose. It could be more eps and with the increased money they have now, not loose quality. I think it's more that they don't want to do more than 10 and justify it with things like actor conflicts, budgets(which are flexible for a show like this), quality.

************Book Stuff**********************

In which ep do you think T will be killed?


Anonymous said...

Just a point on season 6 vs book 6. They're into producing season 5 now. So, season 6 is only 1 year away, maybe less depending on script/storyline adjustments.


Anonymous said...

I also recall GRRM referencing the Butterfly Effect being at work here. Sometimes I feel that since the show has taken some different approaches than the books that it gives him license to take the books in a different direction with increasing divergence as we move forward in time.


Mike V. said...

Yep...I'm glad the show exists but they knew this could be an issue starting it without the book series being complete!

Yeah...I guess it's possible he's going to kill off some major characters before the end. Granted, GRRM may have told Beniof and Weiss that when reviewing character arcs. But, I still can't imagine he'd let them be killed off on the show prior to him revealing it in the books.

I think it's definitely possible that they're going to be into brand new territory in season 6. But, I also think book 6 may come out next year some time. Maybe GRRM will be able to get them an advanced copy before it hits press. lol (Just read your season 6 vs book 6 comments too so this response works for that as well lol)

The budget HAS been increased (they're at like $6 million per episode I think). I still think it's TIME more than money. And when you squeeze more episodes into the same production schedule, quality has to be lost somewhere. I just read your last sentence there...yeah...I think it's that they don't want to do more than 10 as well.

Agree on the divergences of book vs tv. But I still think there are some things where they'd want to be consistent...i.e. the parentage of Jon Snow. But, I still don't know how that can be revealed on the show before the books.

****** BOOK STUFF**********

Absolutely episode 10. Episode 9 will be all The Wall all the time. lol (Like blackwater) I think episode 10 will finish off with T's escape followed by a final coda scene of LS. At least, that's how I'm envisioning it. lol

Anonymous said...

***********************************************book stuff************************

Agree on most. Don't forget we get to see the children and maybe CH. Can't wait for the battle. Kind of interesting in that it feels like there's not enough time with what we think will happen to do much more in Mereen. That arc is mostly over it seems for this season.

It's kind of strange how the Starks end up. I mean eventually as you know JS becomes a hero, then maybe a zero(stabbed/outcast).

GRRM never lets a fan get too comfortable with a hero--LOL.


Mike V. said...

***book stuff***

I didn't forget. I just think that's how the episode will end. Lol hope ch will be a character but not necessarily sure they need him. Will post later.

Mike V. said...

*****BOOK STUFF******

Was on my phone when I posted that last one yesterday.

I think all of the Stark children have the potential to be heroes in the end. Arya, Bran and Sansa are all on idea where Rickon is but I think Davos is looking for him in the books. Jon yes...he'll probably be some sort of hero...whether by prophecy or not.

You don't think there's enough time in this season for everything? First of all, we just THINK "CHILDREN" may be referring to "of the forest"...we don't know that for sure. But seems like Bran will get to his destination in the finale. Of course, he needed CH to guide him there...but he's already had visions on where to go, so I don't know if we're going to meet him or not. I guess it depends on how important Cold Hands is and if it's who we (readers) have theorized he might be. And of course, if they show him...that would ultimately prove from a showpoint who it is...maybe not from the books. (unless his face is covered or altered)

As for Mereen...I don't think we're going to see ALL of the book 5 stuff by the end of this season...they still have next season too... I'm having a hard time remembering everything that went down in Mereen but many speculate they're going to show Drogon taking a baby or something. Pretty much just showing that Dany has lost control of her dragons and maybe just control of her kingdom in general. (which has been a theme this season)

You're right about GRRM not letting peoplet get comfortable with heroes...but you think some kind of good needs to prevail in the end. It might be bittersweet but surely there is "SOME" light at the end of the tunnel. Some kind of redemption for the Starks. Sure...his goal has been to contest fantasy tropes throughout his story, but in the end surely he's going to have some kind of heroic tale with who is left! Of course, maybe me having that expectation is just setting me up to throw my book/e-reader/television into a furnace by the end! lol

Anonymous said...

****************8book spoilers******************8

JS is stabbed and basically in trouble as we last know. He can't do what he wants at WF and fulfill his duties.

AS is pursuing a career which will not allow her to be a ruler

SS may or may not become a good ruler

BS is obviously gifted, but may not be able to have any offspring.

I don't know about the others.

If it goes to 8 books, I think whomever and however is killed may be changing from original thoughts. Probably won't change the final leader or leaders however. The overall book series is A Song of Ice and Fire, not game of thrones. But, the TV series is a Game of Thrones. So, maybe there will be differences in the ending related to the titles?

I can see an ending for the TV series which includes(not limited to) Tyrion(or some sage person) being older and advising an aspiring leader that this game will never end. That it is dangerous/deadly, etc.

I would expect a T(maybe JS?) to rule at the end of the TV series. I would almost expect that ruler to not yet have been on the TV series. I really would like to see Dany, Jon or Tyrion killed off to make it interesting. Cersei may or may not be killed off, you always need bad guys to play off of--lol. Killing Ned early on makes that a possibility or may have fulfilled the quota for killing a major player? The upcoming killing of T is a big deal, but not nearly so much as Ned, imo. It seems as though the ending may have been partially shot though, with the KL throne room filled with snow and roof caved in, etc. Is this the result purely of a dragon attack or the Others coming down from the North? Definitely a Winter thing but the last book has a Spring reference--lol. So it seems a kind of resurrection from the ashes kind of thing?

The last book's title should give you some hope Mike that you will get atleast some of what you want in an ending--lol.

This weeks battle won't have ended the ice vs fire theme. So, major stuff yet to come, maybe book 6, but I expect book 7 or 8--lol. Thing is AFFC and ADWD don't have a lot of great battle scenes like swords does.

AFter Ned was killed, I quit pulling for anyone with any kind of investment from myself.

If I'm pulling for anyone it's AT at the end, just because he's not here yet---lol. And I don't like Dany or JS and Tyrion is not a Targaryean--lol--or is he--lol,lol,lol. OK, yes it's possible Tyrion could be the T at the end--lol. And I would be all good with that.


Mike V. said...

****BOOK STUFF****

Lots of info there!

Yeah, I don't expect a Stark to rule in the end, nor do I think they really want to. I just want redemption for that family and for them to be in control of the North again...i.e. reclaim their Winterfell home. I think Rickon Stark will be the "hope for the future" for carrying on the Stark name. That's probably why he exists in the first place. lol

GRRM says he knows who will sit on the throne at the end of the series...and he says there could be multiple people that sit there before the end. I guess it makes sense that some T will sit there...since that's the long arc of the show. I guess the goal would be for people to be mostly satisfied with who is sitting on that throne. That would be cruel to have this long story of Dany on a quest to come home and reclaim the throne and her not get a chance to. But...that does seem like something GRRM would do. lol But, as long as she is somehow involved in the battle against the White Walkers, there is something to be said about that.

Yes...there is that big question on Tyrion...and the question beyond that is if GRRM will really have 2 characters with parental twists in the end.

As for 5 ended with cliffhangers to 2 at Winterfell in the snow and one at Mereen. There's a chance that the series may jump into one of those next season before the book comes out. But that's just speculation from the link you posted. lol

probably safe to not get invested in anyone after Ned's death! lol But, I just seems like Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran are in it for the long haul. I guess Jaime could be a surprise death coming up after his huge redemption turn in the books....people might be upset to see him offed early.

but yes...killing one of those people I mentioned would certainly be shocking.

Anonymous said...

Good point and agree on Rickon

Dany fighting WWalkers, yea with the dragons, that would be neat and for her to die in battle since she has such a hard time

Yea the Mereen and Winterfell battles, We of course know how those end--lol???

I hope I don't get bored with the Dorne stuff. I saw the demo tape for the girl who's playing the eldest Sand daughter. I've seen her before, not bad.

Since we saw thE WW King, I'm hoping more of that stuff is exposed next year. I think there will be.

You didn't comment on the KL shots we've seen where the throne room was ransacked/ruined??


Anonymous said...

BTW, interesting that there already has been several on the throne.

Also interesting how nobody picks Stannis and yet he's the AA--lol.


Mike V. said...

************BOOK STUFF********************* (this applies to Richard's comments above too!!!)

true....or she has learned from her mistakes in Slaver's Bay and will come to Westeros, save it and earn everyone's love and admiration in the process. lol

I think the Dorne stuff on TV will be more interesting than the Dorne stuff in the book. But it certainly will be new for the show....I saw a list of characters being cast (on IGN) (Leaked of course lol) and Prince Doran and the Sand Snakes (Oberyn's bastard daughters) were all being cast...but I didn't see Arianne Martell on the list.

The Battles - I don't think we know how they end....but we can assume! Does Stannis beat Ramsay? Dany certainly probably will triumph at Mereen...or maybe she'll finally escape and head west. lol We just don't know how those battles will go down.

I missed your comment on the King's Landing ruins foreshadowing...but I actually was going to say..that one theory that people don't always consdier is that maybe NO ONE will end up on the Iron Throne. Maybe the 7 Kingdoms will be dismantled. But yeah...I would imagine the Walkers will probably enter Westeros and might make their way down to King's Landing. That would be a sight to see! But I guess the ceiling being ripped off might be the dragons scorching the ceiling.

As for the supposed WW King...I get nervous with stuff like that because I wonder how much is really commissioned from Martin on stuff not really explored yet in the books. So, if they have to deviate ...that's fine. But, I'd also like to know if we're watching THEIR interpretation of the end vs. where the books are going to go. Just seems like it could get messy. lol But, I guess that's just the nature of the beast!

Stannis = AA??? Surely you're being sarcastic, right? lol Melisandre pretty much acknowledges she was wrong about that in ADWD. At least that's what I remember. We'll see!

But yeah...I guess I never imagined him actually taking the throne...but I guess it's still a possibility with him trying to claim the North from the Boltons.

Anonymous said...

**********************book stuff*****************************************************

You're such a Dany lover--lol.

Battles are not for sure decided, but I'm thinking Stannis and Dany will both win. She needs to leave WITH her army to come to Westeros. If Stannis loses, then the Boltons will become a big deal and I just think the Stannis/Davos team are too interesting vs Ramsey/Roose????

Stannis as AA in the TV show is still in play. Although most probably aren't recalling--lol. I'm not saying he'll take the throne, just interesting that he has the best and true claim by far. We KNOW his sword isn't Lightbringer and that he's not AA though. He's being backed by the bank because he has the best claim in addition to non payment by Lanisters. If the bank becomes a big deal, then Stannis could end up on the throne surprising everyone--LOL.

Like the idea of no one on Throne for the 7 kingdoms except that eventually it's just going to be sought after.

I love the WWKing idea and believe/hope that it is one of those things the show runners know from GRRM as a result of meetings. It just makes sense and how they're made too. They're exposing it earlier than GRRM I think to bring the storyline accross in a timeline that keeps all fronts moving forward. And it separates the Wildling threat from the WW threat. I think most people view the up North threat as common as most don't pay attention to detail. This helps them see some difference.

I'm concerned next season will be so different that some will be lost as audience. One thing that people want in a show are their heros, people they can root for. One of my favs will no longer be in play. Again, I'm not a Dany nor Jon fan. Tyrion's first few seasons reminded me of Arthur(Dudley Moore) and so was very entertaining. The next season won't be so much fun for him and therefore won't likely be so much fun for me. I actually like Tywin too. I can't stand Petyr and yet see who's here next season--lol.


Mike V. said...

**** BOOK STUFF******, I'm not a Dany "LOVER"...I just assume some things storywise with her arc. lol

I think most of us are in the same boat with characters we love. I think the book 5 Tyrion stuff will be handled better on screen than in the book too.

Someone seeking the throne....well they can't seek it if it gets destroyed!! lol

I thought the show made it pretty clear that the wildlings were fleeing the north because of the walkers. But, I get your point. They also probably are not thinking about who might be coming to the Night's Watch aid on Sunday even though it was made pretty clear at the end of last season. Of course, this is good because it came as a surprise in the books, so I think that's what they're going for.

I hear you on Stannis's claim. He certainly has a good claim. And it wouldn't surprise me if he's one of the people that ends up on the throne "temporarily" before the end. lol

Anonymous said...

Wellllll you can always build a throne, as the one there now was built--lol. I get your point and it may be that it's left empty at the end of the story. It's just that in my experiences voids of power are always filled and we as a human race have always worked toward conquering most if not all known--lol.

Yea on the Wildlings fleeing. And the note Stannis received I thought was this season?? I know Melissandre this season even talked about his daughter having to go. But, most people don't watch a show keeping up with the multiple plots.


Mike V. said...

Showrunners tease the battle at the wall - SPOILER FREE!

Mike V. said...

**************BOOK STUFF***********

Stannis stuff (trying to keep non book readers in the dark lol) - It was last season's finale that Davos found a way to stay alive by reading the plea for help from the North. But, no they haven't mentioned where they were planning to go since I don't think. Maybe it the season premiere. But, they seem to be purposefully not mentioning it to make it seem like the Night's Watch situation is very dire.

Yeah...I got your point about conquering too. Just seems like if anyone takes the throne by force or conquering it, that the story could keep on going past the end. You'd think there'd have to be some CHANGE possibly for the better where the realm is content with what has happened. Or at least where some sort of redemption has happened for what has gone down so far. That is just built into our sense of satisfaction to hope for some kind of JUSTICE in the end of a story....that somehow the good guys get some kind of victory. And yes, there are no good guys vs. bad guys. But most people identify the Starks, Tyrion, Dany, Jon as the "hero" figures in this tale so far. We'll see!